Phil Starr

Bills figure of 90dB seems reasonable as you'd want to match the loudest guitar sound with your bass not the quietest. In fact you'd want the bass to be able to go louder because we hear lower frequencies less well than the mids that guitars put out. I'd be looking at producing 100dB peaks so you could work at 80dB with a 20dB peak in reserve, or a dynamic range of 40dB if you prefer that way of looking at it. An average bass speaker will give about 96dB for 1W@1m, little 10's in low powered combos probably 92dB/W, an 8 in a practice amp 90dB, taking the lower figure you'd need 10W for 100dB. If you did take your Ampeg fridge 1W would be more than enough. If you are playing outdoors then you'd need four times the power as the bass would be radiated 360 degrees. This is all to be taken with a pinch of salt because we've no idea of spaces you'll be performing in or the type of music

First have a go at this, it's been here before but everyone in a band should do it from time to time. http://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx Forget about eq unless your rig is just for you and not for the audience, having it sound good for you whilst the audience hears a tinny, over loud sound is for guitarists you have to eq for the audience and the room, but if you put bass through the PA you can boost tops and mids a little on-stage and boost the bass with the PA. Assuming your hearing checks out OK I really think the problem is an over loud on-stage sound. There ar tiny muscles in your middle ear that contract and lock up the tiny bones that transmit sound when it gets too loud. This limits the damage to your inner ear but distorts the sound. You stand no real chance of hearing anything clearly when it gets too loud. If you are like me and probably 90% of musicians then all the band are working harder once the adrenaline of the gig kicks in and your volume increases to beyond the sound check and rehearsal levels. Sometimes wearing ear plugs actually helps you hear better so long as they are the ones which are designed for musicians not for power tool users. Point your speakers at your ears, use a kickback or a stand, but mainly turn down. the other problem with little pubs is that in tiny spaces with low walls and the sides of the room right up close you get a lot of reverberent sound which boosts the bass, edge off the bass a bit and you should hear the rest a little better. Good luck, hope your hearing checks out.

How portable? Hartke Kickback 10's are pretty small and a one handed lift although heavy to carry more than 100yards or so but will give a very satisfying sound compared with the practice amps mentioned. I use mine for gigs in small pubs when space is limited. Expect to pay £125 for a second hand one. All the above will make a bassy sound but you are ultimately limited in what a 15-30W amp and a small speaker will do. I'm sure other 1x10 combos will do as well as the Hartke but this is the one I use.

KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON. Amps break, whatever brand you buy. Just like anything else. Sometimes it is something simple and fixable and sometimes it is a sign that the amp is old and coming to the end of its life or a major rebuild is in order. Just like your car really. If you have £400 to spend and an unreliable non-fixable amp the enjoy choosing a new one which will give you pleasure for years to come. Choose it because of the way it sounds and don't rush into an impulse buy. None of the amps you mention should be unreliable, it isn't the basis on which you should choose. Do have a back up amp though, I have a little PA amp I carry, at a pinch it will run the PA or act as a backup bass amp, it might even act as a guitar amp in an emergency. That leaves you with the problem of making a noise at your gig. Looks like someone locally might help you out (you gotta love bass players). Have you taken your amp to a tech, they'll usually fix things quickly in an emergency or lend you something to tide you over. Even if you decide to move on a fixed amp is worth a few quid to someone so you'll get the repair price back. All the other options are open to you and many small music shops will lend/hire to a musician in need. If not then there are other ways of making a noise which will get you through a gig. Borrow a spare guitar amp so long as you use bass speakers. Use a PA amp and even a PA speaker. DI through the PA and use a monitor on stage. If you and your band are charging for gigs then you need to carry enough spares/backup to get through the gig. No amp however new and expensive can be guaranteed to work, there's always the one in 10,000 chance of it going wrong just like anything else electrical or mechanical. Good luck, I'm sure there is some solution out there, sorry I'm not near enough to help, have a good gig.

For a first build I'd definitely go for 18mm board unless you are really fetishistic about low weight. It only adds a couple of kilos to the cab because the speaker weight is a given and you need less bracing. I've used a lot of marine and exterior ply with success. If you really want to keep costs down then it is worth thinking about using chipboard, it comes in different grades depending upon the compression they used when making it and look for stuff with graded particles so the outside has finer particles. Sonically it makes a better cab though it is usually a little heavier and isn't so resistant to bumps and scrapes, unless you cover it. Less than half the price and just as good if this is only a prototype. Reinforced butt joints are good too, especially if you don't have access to good clamps whilst glueing as the screws pull everything together and hold it whilst the glue sets

I know Bill and I have been known to fall out over just how difficult it is to design a 'successful' cab but there are a lot of things to think about, and to learn. Google for an online signal generator, plug in a decent set of headphones and listen to a 1000Hz signal as loud as you can bear it then change the frequency to 41 Hz. You probably won't hear it although it will be at the same volume as the 1kHz signal. You'll also be amazed at how low a tone it is, we almost never hear anything that low because our ears aren't really designed to work down there. Fundamental isn't really that important, once you play with drums and guitar playing too it is even less so. Now think about the wavelength of the sound, if the floors and walls are within half a wavelength they are going to reflect the sound and it will be like having extra speakers and the bass will be too loud, If the room is small you can't really propagate the bass because the room is shorter than the wavelength, if it is big then because the room is going to be a wavelength or two long at certain frequencies you are going to get standing wave resonances set up. Mostly real bass is just a problem in most rooms. The modelling software concentrates on the low frequencies and there is a tendency for us to obsess over them as a result. Concentrate on getting a smooth response and keeping excursion in limits and you'll get a better cleaner sound. The whole point of the port is that it gives you a bit of extra output at around the frequency the speaker naturally cuts out, put it too low and it might just as well not be there because it will never make a sound, too high and it will unload the speaker meaning real excursion problems if you do put real bass at high power through it. FWIW I think it is great you want to do this, you are going to learn loads and you'll almost certainly end up with a usable speaker first time and a better one in subsequent builds, one day you will be as boring as i am

It really isn't a business for most of us though, and this is a thread about pub gigs after all. Even if you got £100 a night each, and that has got to be so rare in a pub you've bought £10,000 of stuff between you and worked from loading at 6.00pm to unloading at 2.00am spent £20 between you on fuel, not to mention the rehearsal and practice time. I doubt we ever earn the minimum wage calculated as an hourly rate. Most of us just make decisions based upon simple practical expediency plus a big nod to the type of music we want to play, money rarely comes into it, though it is nice to get something. I've no problem with the solo musician with backing tracks or the many who deliberately decide to go out as a duo or trio just to make it pay a little, or at the other end the function band who go out with brass sections and the juke box set. Everyone's got to make their own decisions and try to make it work. I've seen great trios and great function bands as well as those who probably aren't putting enough in. It's hard enough playing the pubs without other musicians looking down their noses. If you entertain audiences and enjoy what you are doing then good luck to you.

OK mine has just arrived, this is the second one as the first one delivered was dead on arrival, this one had one loose tone control knob and all the knobs just not seated properly. 30secs to set them properly but that plus the DOA says the quality control is haphazard at best. On the positive side Andertons were terrific. One phone call and absolutely no questions asked, a replacement went straight into the post that day. The assistant on the phone, Charlie was the most polite, charming person I think I've ever spoken to on the phone. Quite apart from the price I'd check Andertons first in future if this is their after sales service. Full marks. The amp on a quick check is just what I wanted, good clean basic sound, pretty much what I get through headphones. Through my 2x10 it was a bit bass light compared with my Hartke 3500 when I changed to the 1x12 (basschat 1x12 prototype in another thread here) it sounded really lovely. The extra bass on this speaker really came through and is so clean, it was almost too much unequalised with the Hartke. Lower mids are really clean and punchy and the whole sound is opened out with the top end really coming through. I'm not convinced about the minimal eq but after half an hour I'm not sure I won't get better out of it with more experience. It sounds absolutely nothing like my old Mag600 so claims about a typical Ashdown sound don't really hold up, and i wasn't getting much overdrive/distortion with the gain on full and my Fender Jazz right up, whether it will edge in when I work the strings harder remains to be seen but basically it does what i want, A good clean sound with plenty of volume that I can shape at the bass. I'm pretty happy but I'll update after a couple of gigs this weekend.

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1410262228' post='2547547'] Everyone take care when using power saws. Duke from Audio Kinesis had a fight with a table saw and lost. He is now only able to offer a Hi Three. Duke has been designing and building cabs for many decades so it can happen to anyone, [/quote] I was lucky in a way, I touched the back of the saw and it threw my hand upwards away from the blade, the tip of my thumb was mincemeat but I could have lost it. I had a gig four hours later and I usually anchor my thumb pretty solidly, still don't know how I finished the gig, I've only started practicing again yesterday 10 days on. I've been using power tools like this for over 40 years and should know better.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1410076901' post='2545791'] She'd be pleased to hear that! She is still full of energy and her voice is as good as ever. It sometimes seems unreal to be sharing a stage with her, but she gives it everything, even in rehearsal. [/quote] We're often up in Reading so I'll keep an eye open to see if you are on when we are up that way. Cheers

Oh day dreaming about Babe Ruth and I forgot. We currently do 2x45 mins with a new band building a set but my previous bands tended to do 2x1hr. 2x45 is generally too short for a pub who ideally want you to go from 9.00-12.00 which extends the drinking for as long as possible whilst not annoying the neighbours too much. A poll on Lemonrock a year or so ago came out with an average figure of just over £200 for pub gigs.

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1410052903' post='2545741'] Usually asked to do 2x60 mins, tonight was supposed to be 2x45 mins but both sets ended up at round an hour each after encores. And we don't get £600 even with a fairly famous recording artist as our lead singer. [/quote] Wow Jenny Haan, loved Babe Ruth, unusual sound at the time and she had such energy on stage. Still have Wells Fargo and The Mexican on the iPod

Where are you in Devon? I'm just outside Axminster and am expecting the delivery of an MiBass this week. £209 from Andertons, You'd be welcome to come and try it out if you are local.

You do like to live life on the edge Steve! The 2ohm tap would work best though both would be OK as either way you are 33% out. The 2ohm tap on the amps output transformer is likely to be thicker wire because it is expected to carry a higher current. Cheers

If you are looking for vocal monitors or a small PA then these have to be the bargain of the century (OK its still early enough) I've just got fed up with carrying my old 15" monitors and an amp and decided to go active for the smaller gigs. I spotted these http://www.andertons.co.uk/active-pa-speakers/cid627/active-pa-speakers.asp#1409763196934page-1 Wharfedale Titan 312a's a lightweight plastic box with a 12 + horn and bi amplified 200W. Just been playing with them and the vocal sound is delightful, it's smooth enough that I can easily exceed the gain before feedback of anything else I've tried. Fairly wide dispersion and pretty good midrange clarity, much better than the Yamaha DSR's I tried recently or anything short of the RCF's the bonus? They are £139 ea. They are also pretty loud going up to a claimed 128dB, the 15's are only £169. The downside is the bass, I didn't find them too bass light with recorded music but when you turn up loud you get the expected resonances from the cheapo plastic cab. My plan was to rip the plate amp out and build my own if they didn't do the job but frankly I'm blown away at the price. If you used these as a PA without Subs I really think you might lose something at high levels though as an acoustic act they would be ideal. The price put me off and I nearly didn't go for something which is cheaper than a Behringer 1320 wedge. If these prove reliable then they are unbeatable at this price point, get them whist they are offer. Here's a review http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/dec07/articles/wharfedaletitan.htm

Well done, I've thought about contacting Blue Aran, or the importers, to at least ensure there is some stock available. With the plate amps it is actually cheaper to buy a cheap powered PA speaker and chuck the rest away or sell it on as a passive if you can fill the hole where the amp was! I didn't list all the speakers we considered, a lot were rejected without even modelling them because of value for money or because the specs were out the range we thought was acceptable. I'm afraid that there is a little pause in proceedings before I make up the final cabs. I caught my thumb in the bench saw last weekend and minced the tip. Can't even hold a pick with it yet.

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1409688111' post='2542312'] I don't think you need to be thinking about having the enough volume to overpower the drums.You need enough to be balanced with the band as a whole, not to overpower anyone. Also, if you do get to play big concerts you shouldnt have to reevaluate your rig, because in those situations you'll always have PA support. I've played some pretty big gigs with my Ashdown MiBass rig which is either a 550 or 240 watt head and one or two 1x12 cabs.Its got plenty of volume to be able to play smaller venues with no support, and has tone for days. I know you're against Ashdown, but I can honestly say that it blows away my old Hartke rig (HA3500, HA4000, 4x10, 2x10) in every way. Personally, I'd be more concerned about you saying that you won't be ready to gig for 6 months. [/quote] Oh dear I think I started this, my throwaway phrase about overpowering the drums was meant humourously. It is clearly absurd to do this although being able to be louder than a drummer means you have enough headroom and you have reached the point where you can stop adding more. I think the OP understands that. Having just ordered an MiBass to replace my HA3500 I'm really pleased to read that It upgraded your sound. Thanks for the advice by the way.

OK you have a very simple choice to make, it isn't a matter of right and wrong, both can be made to work and for me the critical question is do you have a sound engineer to mix FOH. Your choices are: Everything through the PA Keep the PA for vocals and acoustic instruments. The advantage of everything through the PA is twofold, you can reduce the onstage sound right down which will enable you to hear everyone in the band better including yourself. Then you'll collectively and individually play better. With a lower sound level you get to keep your hearing without having to wear ear defenders. You'll also have a much clearer sound for the audience because you won't have the back line picked up by the vocal mics. The second advantage is that of control, With most of the sound coming through the PA people in line with the guitards amps will hear what the rest of the band are doing and you can project the sound so everyone gets to hear everything. You can't have a properly mixed sound unless the engineer can adjust all the volumes at the mixer. The advantage of everything except vocals through the backline is simplicity. Don't knock simplicity, you are far more likely to get simple sound right on the nail. You set up exactly as the last gig, someone goes out front and says guitarist down a bit, bass up, or whatever and you are good to go. The other thing is that you hear the same volume or slightly louder than the audience and this makes it all feel much more trouser flappingly immediate. You will suffer some permanent hearing loss though without ear defenders. I much prefer a fully mixed sound, I've been a sound engineer for 40 years and a musician for 6, but with no-one front of house my bands both have settled on a vocal PA only for pub gigs, without someone out there mixing dynamically a fully mixed system is something that needs a lot of skill to do effectively. Why take subs at all though if you are not putting bass through the PA? If you want more you might find some of this useful and it has links to more detailed articles http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1591207 Cheers

There are pracical reasons for cabs being under sized. Portability, In my early days as an 18 year old student I built a mate an optimum sized cab only to find it wouldn't go through a doorway and we had to remove the sash windows to get it out of the room! Tone, believe it or not an extended and full bass response often creates problems and isn't an unmixed blessing. To many room resonances excited. reducing the cab size will cut the deep bass and create a bass hump a bit higher up. This is the sound of most cabs and one we find pleasing, if a cab has a good 'thump' you can bet its the hump of an undersized cab. Go into WinISD and you can change the box sizes and see how that changes the response. If you are unfamiliar with Win ISD the best way to do this is to open up a new project, input the same driver and then change the plot colour. Then change the box volume (try halving it) and both the original and half a box responses will be displayed on the same graph. You can fiddle with tunings and see what that does too. If you want a flatt response in a small box then look for drivers where Qts is small and so is Vas. Power handling is often slightly higher in an undersized cab

It says a lot for Leo Fender that these are still go to basses. Personally I love the tone of my Fender Jazz at home but so often the P bass just sits so well in the mix when with the band that it is always what I turn to if there is anything rocky going on, they really do just work. The jazz works well with softer semi acoustic stuff though. Pickups pick up more of the fundamental relative to the harmonics the further away from the bridge they are. This means there is a sweet spot where the balance between fundamental (the deep bass) and harmonics gives a nice balanced sound, with a twin pup design you can't have both on the sweet spot and usually the neck pup is too heavy and the bridge pup too light. Blending them restores harmony grasshopper, but because the pups are separate there will be cancellations of some frequencies so you get a new sound often described as a mid scoop. Personally I love the sound of my Jazz with the neck pup on full and the bridge pup just about 2/3. It is smooth when I'm gentle and snarls as I dig in, but it doesn't sound like a P bass. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the neck, traditionally the P neck is much more solid and chunky, the J bass really quite elegant and slim. With small fingers I much prefer the J-bass neck, though lots of P-basses are now fitted with a J style neck. The experience of playing them is very different IMO. I'd absolutely agree with the guy who said the one he prefers depends upon which month you are talking about. Most gigs I use my American Deluxe P-bass which has a neck halfway between J and P with a P pup and what looks like two J pups fixed together as a humbucker. No two fenders are alike anyway.

That's a fantastic budget and should give you a pretty wide choice and some great gear. Your approach is going to be the best way forward. You are going to give everything a good listen before you buy. I feel sorry for the shops a little if they are going to invest hours in you auditioning gear before you go to a German discounter. You should at least offer them the chance to price match Hartke speakers are unique and if you like the sound then you probably have to stick with them or use them as the sound to compare your other options with. Too many people here go on about dispersion with 4x10's. There are problems with a restricted dispersion of higher frequencies but this is also part of the sound, the restricted dispersion pattern is also helpful in many venues as it reduces the reverberant sound off the side walls and ceilings. Mixing cabs is ok but it has a tendency to smooth out any character in the speakers rather than adding the character of both. I'll question however the wisdom of going for a huge rig like this. I can see that you might struggle with 170W into a couple of dodgy old speakers but put that through a 4ohm 4x10 and you are going to get a lot more volume immediately. Get a really good 2x12 and a more powerful amp for example and you can completely drown out the drums. I've said it elsewhere but my drummer complained he couldn't hear his own snare when I cranked up my own rig. If you are going to have to mic the drums then your band will sound better with your money invested into the PA. Really if your rig can reproduce bass without distortion at 120dB you are going to be more than loud enough to drown the drummer and damage your own hearing permanently (That's serious, not exaggeration by the way) I really wouldn't give most guitarists a 4x12 for the same reason. You've said that you will be playing small to medium venues, why carry gear designed for playing stadiums in the days before PA support was available?

Personally I prefer a 'heavy' 3/4" cab with minimal bracing to an extensively braced cab. Not that i think one is wrong and one is right but I'm less than convinced that the extra work is justified by the change in sound. There is very little weight saving if the bracing is extensive. One day I'm going to do extensive testing of this but I haven't so far. I'd stick to broom handle style cross bracing with only one or two across the panels. Keep them off dead centre, you are damping panel vibration as well as stiffening the cab and a central brace only moves the fundamental up an octave. Kind of like trying to damp at the twelfth fret and playing an accidental harmonic.

What I'll end up gigging with is up to how it sounds, I always advise people to listen before they buy and not rely on well meaning advice and then what do I do? I'm just fed up with the weight of the Hartke 3500 and given that I rarely touch the amp during gigs the eq ,versatile though it is, won't be missed. 350W through my current speakers is total overkill and my drummer complained of not being able to hear his own snare so I guess that's loud enough. I contemplated using a PA amp and Sansamp but at just over £200 from Andertons this looked cheap enough to take a punt on, I have a bit of a soft spot for Ashdown because their after sales is so good. I'll let people know here how I get on with the amp.

Just had a successful gig last night with my Hartke Kickback 10 that someone mentioned earlier. It was a small pub with a low ceiling and I decided to use this which I carry as emergency backup. My normal rig was in the van but as I expected it would have been overkill. Depends upon your band of course but it is surprising how little you can get away with. We play Pop/Rock and the pub would have taken about 70 people. I'm toying with replacing the speaker with something a little more capable and using it more often in small venues. The only problem is that it doesn't handle extreme bass at all well and if you crank it you need to roll off the bottom end a bit. Shoving it hard against a back wall brings the bass back up a little though, you couldn't use it on an open stage.

You can overdo the worry about joints, rabbets make it easier to clamp up but don't add significantly to the strength, there isn't a big increase in glue area, there are lots of successful cabs with simple butt joints for example. My favourite for home construction is the reinforced butt joint with a 1" batten screwed and glued along all the joints. Screwing and gluing means no clamping increased strength and some damping of panel resonance and it is so easy. It was the recommended technique for years and even some commercial cabs used it when they were hand built. Almost any mastic is good for sealing joints, though if you do a good job should be unnecessary. The glue should seal everything. I use water based mastic because I don't like solvent fumes around expensive drivers but by all means use silicone if you leave the cab to air for a couple of days before fitting the driver permanently in place.