Phil Starr

Yeah I think that is realistic, and remember this is only using one amp on the chip. I'm not recommending these because I haven't trried them but TI are a recognised company and those specs are continuous rms power. the only reason I've put all this up is to say that given the state of the technology and how cheap it is the claims of the Nobsound and similar Chinese amps aren't ridiculous. I've a history of shooting down the ridiculous over claiming of Behringer/Yamaha/RCF/every single PA speaker on the basis of being technically impossible so it's nice to be able to say that this looks very feasable. I've no idea of the build quality but at that price I'd take the risk.

You Should be Dancing! Now that one is high. Great floor filler though.

Me too, though mainly just to add a bit of volume. What was the name of your band? I was going to look you up but I've lost the answer

Ah but you aren't the singer

So we are playing at a rehearsal with my new(ish) band and running through the set including the Pink song Who Knew. What is special about this rehearsal is that we are picking up after a tragedy for one of the band members. Her childhood friend of over 20 years had died a few days before from drug abuse. If you know the song it's about a friend who died of drug abuse. I'd thought about pulling the song from the rehearsal but that also draws attention to it. Anyway we run through it, it's simple enough and we play it well so no need to linger. I'm on the edge of tears by the end and daren't look at the rest of the band. At the end of the rehearsal I talk to the singer about it and she says "I didn't know that was what the song was about" "Oh is that what the 'when we meet again lyric is about?" She knows every word but has never thought about the meaning. Actually that is probably true about most singers I've played with, none of them are really bothered about lyrics. A couple of other examples Nutbush City Limits has the line "it's a WHITE community" singer has no idea it's about racism. To be fair that word is smeared in the radio edit. One of my favourite moments lyrically is in Feeling Good is when Nina Simone changed the original lyric from you know how feel to Freedom is mine, and I know how I feel changing the whole meaning of the song. Other singers just don't notice it, the whole civil rights movement dismissed. (OK maybe that's overstating things ) Now I get that I'm a bit of a nerd, but I really don't get that when the sung word is what you do you don't get to really listen to the words, they are surely about feelings/stories/pictures and so on. How can you take an audience with you if you have no idea what you are trying to say? Now I'm particularly interested in lyrics, I love a clever or telling phrase in a song often a big hit song resonates because of capturing a thought or feeling and I love the "power of cheap music and cheap perfume" . I'm amazed that the person delivering the killer line doesn't savour the power that this gives them. So id this just me? Have you come across this?

This is all true. The best thing you can do to get a real picture is to go to the chip manufacturers data sheets TPA3255

Hi all, well the drugs are working and I'm feeling a lot better. In my case it was caused by a PE and deep vein thrombosis and I got the chest infection thing at the same time. I survived and my lungs are healing but it wasn't nice. Back at the gym now and digging the garden and starting to sing again so all is good. Anyway yesterday I ordered a couple of Fane 8-225's so I can build the prototype and I'll try and dig out my draft plans and get them off to @Bassybert for drawing once I've made a few sketches. We are back on track

I don't think there is anything too suspicious about these amps, there are a whole rash of class D amplifier chips they are used in that are the basis of a lot of cheap hi-fi/television sound bars and the like. Generally thay are the basis of anything that is rated as 2.1 i.e. a stereo amp with a subwoofer output. Basically each chip has a four channel class D amplifier. Each amplifier can be bridged with another so you can get extra power. Typically one pair are used for the subwoofer and the other two as a stereo amp. Other chips have just two amps as used in this Nobsound. These amplifier chips are incredibly cheap as they are mass produced and the reliability of the final product depends to a certain extent upon the quality of the few external components they need and the power supply. I'd assume Eich will use better components. The power you will actaully get will depend upon the power supply and 19V is an odd choice for a 24Vchip. It's not unusual for a laptop power supply though so my guess is that is what you are getting. We've all probably got a collection of domestic bluetooth speakers using these amps, it's why this stuff is so cheap. During Lockdown I bought a whole collection of these on uncased boards to try out for building a combo. I still haven't got round to making anything but I know @Chienmortbb has got them going This is one of the amps based upon a TDA3116 chip which is hidden under the black heatsink. In this case the board is rated at 100W @4ohms with a 24V supply. It's £9.99 from ebay it could be what is in the4 Nobsound but there are other options.

As Bill says. On stage with a band the last thing you want is a lot of the fundamental frequencies (41-83Hz for a four string) coming from the bass stack. It'll make a horrible formless mush that will make it difficult for everyone to hear, it will pollute the vocal mics and potentially create feedback problems. You need a very different tone on stage to that lovely sound you carefully set up at home. Even in the PA you'll need to filter out some of the natural bass once you try balancing out bass and drums with the other instruments. Of course if you have a sub at home and want to try it for fun there's no harm but if you were thinking of a purchase then save your money and buy a Thumpinator. A sub on stage is as welcome as someone who has had too much re-fried beans

Thanks that's really useful. I had a great in-ear sound a yesterday's gig with ZS10 pro's. I got a really good seal and the answer may be sunscreen. We were outdoors all afternoon and I may have overdone the factor 50, but the triple flange tips slid right in easily and the isolation was great. The only problem was with the mids and uncomfortable cymbal noise which were highlighted now I've got the external noises down to a lower level. It also showed up how much bass was leaking in from the PA, I've filtered it fairly heavily in my monitor mix and had to add a fair bit back in. Next step is to get some customs.

I guess a digital desk is your next purchase? I lucked out and made my purchase just before the price hikes. £330 for mine and the Behringer XR18 was only £10 more at the time. If mine ever goes down I'm looking at the A&H CQ20 as a possible replacement at £780, it's a bit more flexible than mine but that is a huge price hike. The XR18 is now £550. However being able to mix and eq their own monitor mix is probably what you need to do to persuade your band to fully embrace in-ears.

Good luck with the gig tonight Anything is worth trying, it's a bit like cookery. get to know your ingredients and come up with a recipe that tastes good for you. In general though if you have a flexible mixer I think it's better to have a target 'sound' that suits your band and then feed that to your PA and then equalise the monitors for the optimum on-stage sound. I'd always prioritise the mix for the audience so a clean feed of the sound you want to FOH comes first. You've got great PA speakers too so you don't need to compromise that. What mixer are you using Al? Obviously if it has no eq on the monitor channels then you are stuck and a compromise is necessary.

this is the other driver for me to use in ears, Floor monitors are so depenedant upon the acoustics in the pokey little 'stage areas' we often play in. As is our bass sound whe using back line. IEM's give you pretty consistendt monitoring.

Very much so. The problem stems from a few things but mainly the bass from the PA. However good your in ears are they are probably only going to reduce the ambient sound by 20db give or take 5db, maybe a little better if you have customs. the trouble is that it is often less than this for bass frequencies. The PA meanwhile is omnidirectional in the sub bass frequencies of 40-160Hz so if you are 2m behind the PA you hear s much bass as if you were standing 2m directly in front of the PA. If your PA is banging out 110db of bass and your IEMs are trying to feed you 90db of your monitor signal then with 20db of attenuation you already have 90db of bass from your PA leaking past the IEMs and you need no bass at all. (very rough figures here but you get the point. On top of this most venues have you hard up in the corner of the room and in spaces prone to low frequency resonances. So, I now HPF the bass at 80 Hz and then also shelve it down a minimum of 6db below 200Hz for my in ear channel. I also boost the mids a little and roll off the highs at 3kHz. If anything in most venues that still leaves me with a bass heavy sound so I'm considering raising the HPF even higher. I'm not claiming any expertise here though so hopefully others will come in with suggestions. The same thing is true if you are using floor monitors so maybe we should run a separeate thread.

For me the misconception is that in-ears are about replacing back line. It's actually primarily about managing the noise levels on stage down to levels where you can hear clearly without damaging your hearing. Mine is really damaged because this wasn't an option when I started out and I worked away at in-ears to preserve as much of my hearing as I have left. The secondary benefit was a better mix with more me, that wasn't an issue with bass but it's let me do more backing vocals. Removing just some of the sound from the on-stage mix then helps the rest of the band especially the singers. The final benefit was realising I can leave floor monitors and backline behind. As you say space becomes an issue so anything less on stage helps at many venues. I still own a bass amp and speakers and they go along to any gig where someone isn't using in-ears. You can have both but it becomes a choice.

If you've ever been into a recording studio you probably have tried it, sort of. The drummer may have been in a booth of course but when recording almost all engineers are going to want a clean recording of each instrument/voice as a starting point so it tends to be headphones all round. If the engineer is good and takes time over your monitoring then that's the sound you'll get on stage. In-ears are just headphones, but little. If you want to try it without hassling the rest of the band you can simply try some cheap in ears like the KZ ZS10's plugged into a recorder like the Zoom H1 Using the recorder just as a convenient mic and headphone amp. If you choose the tips for the headphones carefully they should block out most of the band sound (like ear plugs) and then you can feed in the normal band sound but at lower levels. You'll instantly find everything is a lot clearer just because you have reduced the volume.

Me too, isolation in terms of shutting out the sound is everything. Imagine using your custom ACS and then adding in the sound you get in a studio. I’m working on improving the (sound) isolation having gone all the way to the triple flange tips that are used in my most effective ear plugs. The psychological isolation from the audience and the rest of the band I’m getting used to. I wonder if that’s partly due to comfort? If the in ears are really tight or so loose that they need constant attention I find it quite distracting. The same if they are uncomfortable. You get used to anything though, you do gradually forget they are there and the proportion of gigs where you feel engaged in the event has increased for me because the sound I’m hearing is no longer dependent upon the venue acoustics. It’s always good leaving one less variable to worry about.

I’ve been really interested in everything people are saying in the various IEM threads that are currently running. It’s become a really polarised debate with maybe a bit more heat than light. I think that there is some confusion too. People are confusing using in ears with the demise of the bass amp and then moving on to confuse that with silent stages. They are three different things.and there is a fourth thing too, putting everything through the PA and giving the audience a fully mixed sound. You can do all four of these things or most combinations of any of them. Each change will help solve some problems and maybe create others but the basic issues are simple: how do you give the audience the best sound and how do the musicians get to hear what they need to play well? In ears ae only about the musicians. So here’s the problem I experienced when I started playing. You are on stage with a drummer and as bassist you are already struggling to hear anything else, so you turn up your bass, the guitarist starts and has to hear themselves above the drums too, the poor old singer doesn’t have a volume control so has to have a floor monitor or two. The drums are producing 100db on average at your ears and peaks in excess of 120db. Meanwhile you are all going harder as the adrenaline rush kicks in, each of you edges up the volume just to pick yourselves out of the mix and you have a volume war.You also have permanent hearing loss. ironically the volume means your ears do their best to reduce the. damage by filtering out as much as they can and you can hear less than if you had all turned down. If you’ve any sense then you will turn down to let the others hear and/or start to use musicians ear plugs. You still have the problem of picking yourself out of the mix, no-one can really have more-me and it is still too loud without ear protection. So, in ears are there to protect your ears and then give you the sound you want; the sound of the band with a little more-me. They can only do this if they cut out sound as well as the best ear plugs. If you’ve had a bad experience of in ears my guess is that’s down to a poor seal. I’ve even seen people using them in one ear. Damaging levels in the unprotected ear and even louder into the other ear. Why would you do that? Why would you do as one of my guitarists does and pull his in ears out so he can hear his amp and then add in extra volume from the phones so that the overall sound is even louder than before?

The trick is to take your time to set up a good sound at a technical rehearsal. Once you know you have a good mix then that becomes what you take to every gig so it is then just about adjusting the volume to suit the venue. You might want to adjust the eq to match the room but something you’ve taken hours doing is going to be much better than making adjustments from behind your PA which you can’t hear. It takes a bit of discipline not to change your instrument volumes gig to gig and I still go out front with a radio connection to have a listen but unless someone competent is sitting out front mixing it’s the best you can do.

As above but with one extra hazard and that is that not all pure sine wave inverters are actually producing pure sine waves. The power supply in your amp may not be compatible with the sine wave they provide. There’s a long thread about this on Bass Chat somewhere.

I think most people would want some pre-shaping before taking their bass to the PA, whether that is through an emulator or a bass pre amp of some sort. If it helps I have a 'basic sound' that I use across all three bands I play with. I set it up at home through good quality headphones and then through some simple studio monitors and then I take that to put through the PA and floor monitors if I use them. I then adjust the eq on the bass channel to get that sound through FOH and then eq the floor monitors further to get the same sound on stage. In practice I've saved the FOH settings after a couple of successful gigs and don't touch that. (if the saved eq sounds wrong (usually too bassy) that's down to room acoustics/resonances and that's adjusted globally on the graphic) Floor monitors start with a saved sound but usually get extra eq. at the sound check as the exact setting will depend upon how much bass is spilling back from the PA. If I'm using in-ears then no further eq is needed mostly. In the band where my guitarist mixes he takes the same feed and that is what he splits. The 'basic sound' I've set up via a Zoom B1ON. I have a very similar sound set up on a Sansamp if ever I play with people who won't/don't use in-ears and I have to split the signal to go through backline which is FRFR (an LFSys Monaco with either a Warwick Gnome or a Bugera Veyron set flat)

I'm not sure enough of the details yet to answer any questions accurately. It doesn't look to be a 'crossover' set up though, more of a 'stereo' signal. I caught a quick look at the graphic of the 'high bass' looked like very like the signal I send through my floor monitors whan I'm mixing heavily filtered bass, some mid boost and the top end rolled off. He's using a Behringer XR18 so plenty of options on the eq. In the past my favourite set up was to go through the PA and use a Hartke Kickback 10 as my monitor. The moment you put gig level bass through the PA the sound from FOH becomes an issue on stage. Mids and top are radiated 90x60deg (depending upon your PA horn) but bass at FOH is radiated 360 deg and swamps the stage. The last thing you want is more bass on stage so you have to cut it almost completely from your monitors. The Hartke sounded great at middle volumes but had nowhere near enough power handling for bass so I turned the bass down to minimum and being a kickbback it directed all the mids and tops I needed straight to my ears. It sounded so tinny without the PA but great mid gig. I know many bassists in the past have used a stereo set up and that goes right back to the dawn of amplified bass. A common trick was to use a guitar amp and speaker for a mid/top sound and something suitably massive for the bass sound.

Size matters, but for your speaker cables not a lot. Cable size affects two things, how hot the cable gets and the resistance of the cable. The resistance of a speaker cable only becomes important if you have long runs of cable as you might in a large public address system in a stadium or potentially in a very large PA system at a festival. For an instrument lead of less than a couple of metres you don't need to worry about resistance. Heating depends upon the current flowing through the wire. Supposing you had 400W going through a 4ohm speaker it would be 10Amps (it's the square root of the power divided by the impedance) That's a continuous signal and in music you won't be pushing anything like that continuously and even allowing for your signal being 25% of full power is a long way over what will happen in real life. So a speaker cable only needs to carry 2-3amps and will still have a significant safety margin. A 1mm cable carries around 20A in free air, 1.5mm-25A, 2.5mm-37A and 4mm-50A so even a 1mm cable is overkill for your speaker lead. If ever you look at a speaker coil you can see that the wires are thinner than some people's hair and they carry the current too so the chance of your cable not coping is vanishingly small. If I was running a PA speaker 100m from the amp I'd use thicker cable. The resistance of a 2m long 1mm cable is 0.034ohms so negligable.

So I've discovered a new trick in squeezing a bit more out of the bass coming through the PA. I'll share that later in the thread as I'm still getting to grips with it and don't want to put out any misinformation. However we've a thread here about how to treat vocals in the PA and we've had some discussion of using HPF to improve the FOH sound and I thought it would be interesting to see how other people approach putting their bass through the PA. If that helps I'll maybe start something on guitar and drums. I'm kind of making some assumptions here. This is strictly about a pub band playing a fair few venues in a year and one of the band members is mixing. You've less than an hour to set up. A 5min soundcheck is a luxury and there is little chance of anyone getting out front to listen once the gig starts in earnest. We are lucky enough here to have people who run PA for a living and I'm really interested in what they say but I'm also looking at things we could all do with a fairly basic mixer. Oh, the trick: no details as I don't fully know what has been done yet. Our new guitarist is responsible. Basically he is duplicating the bass channel in the mixer and applying different eq to each channel. One channel is labelled 'Low Bass' and the other 'High Bass' I only noticed this when they appeared in my monitor mix. Turning up the high bass increases the articulacy of the sound and the 'Low Bass' lets you have a deep bass presence without overwhelming the rest of the mix. You'll have to wait for details. In the mean time the question is; what have you tried successfully and what problems have you found?

I'm really surprised at this. Feedback needs the signal fed back and amplified and the idea that acoustic feedback through the strings was louder than when you picked them is really unusual. It's emphasised by any resonances however so maybe your change of position created a new resonance and you won't get that on other stages in other venues. Odd, but it probably won't happen again. The only other thing that I can think of is that use of high levels of compression can cause feedback. Guitarists use it for sustain which is just a kind of controlled feedback. To answer your question a 'proper' monitor will usually have a flatter, smoother response with fewer peaks in response which will increase the chance of setting off resonance. Of course if you re-eq it to make it sound like your bass amp you will be restoring that response so that it is no longer flat. The best monitors also filter out extreme bass and treble to avoid feedback at frequencies that aren't needed for monitoring. Modern DSP PA speakers often have a 'monitor' setting to do just this. Let us know if it happens again at other venues.