Phil Starr

The crew got a bit iffy when I suggested taking a feed from the floor monitors, they were at the limits of their technical ability I suspect. They'd set up the subs under each of the flying arrays about 20m apart when they had plenty of space under the stage to acoustically couple them. They'd also set them to overwhelm the tops which weren't working hard at all and there was very little top end for cymbals. Sometimes you just have to smile, hope and get on with it. Nobody loves a smarty pants. Mind you having been very suspicious of the in-ears my lot wouldn't go back. I quite like the splitter idea though, we've got a couple of active DI's that would have done that. I see @Alfie Noakes was at the same gig the day before

Aaaarghhh. Another mini festival gig ruined by the hire company. Too much through the subs so overwhelming bass out front and impossibly poor on stage monitoring. We were promised an in ear mix only to be told they only had one lead available and that had been given to the drummer. Not prepared to give me the feed from the floor monitor. We have an electric kit so poor monitoring is a real problem.

Good luck

I feel your pain. Replacing your singer is the most disruptive thing that can happen to a band. Any decent guitarist, bassist or keys player is going to be able to bang out most or all of your set. The human voice is just not that adaptable and your singer is inevitably your front person. If the songs don’t suit you will have to drop and replace them. That’s just reality, they have to sell the song not just sing the notes. It’s hugely disruptive and not really the singers fault. I really think you’ve answered your own question 80% of your songs are ‘male’. Look for a singer male or female but if 80% of your songs were written for male voices you have to be realistic about what the most likely outcome is.

Spend wisely and spend only once. £800-900 is a good budget so you should be aiming for good kit. Of what is suggested RCF and Yamaha are good and pretty much bombproof. QSC too but I’d go for RCF for the best quality for you vocals. RCF have recently discontinued the 300 series which was their base level kit but you may just still find some discounted. The 700 series are really nice and 900 even better. The numbering is fairly simple the 712 is 700 series with a 1” tweeter and 12” bass speaker. So a 935 is a slightly better 15 with a 3” tweeter. You can just about afford an RCF 712 system new but I’d probably look for used. There are three pairs of 712’s on FB Marketplace today for£600 for example. I’d happily gig with 312’s as well which should be cheaper. If you do want to save money then the old passive speakers can be found really cheaply but you’d need to know enough to match the amp and it’s just a little more fuss to set up. A good option if you know enough and money is tight though.

kozfest

You said yourself that designing cabs is like modelling balloons. You press down on somewhere for an improvement and something else pops up. MDF is fantastic for cabs, it's a completely uniform and consistent material. compared with other boards it is self damping and largely non resonant as a result. The extra mass helps too in a cab. It's also reasonably tough. The big problems are weight, how badly it deforms with even a little moisture and the dust it produces when you machine it. Chipboard (particle board in the US ) is good too but it needs to be high density and have fine particles at least on the outside or it is a B****r to finish well. If it isn't high density it's too soft and doesn't take knocks well but high density means just that, it's heavy. So then there is plywood which comes in so many grades but is essentially lighter and tougher than the other man made boards but acoustically more resonant and will need more bracing for a similar performance. Useable is a good word, bracing a cab extensively pushes up the time and labour costs so every cab is a compromise between price, sound quality and practicality. These things go in fashion a little too, we aren't entirely rational and at one time it was never mind the quality feel the weight

That's the problem with baked in loudness equalisation, you can eq most of it out but it's a huge task to do it well. Hoping this isn't a thread de-rail but I've been using FRFR for a while and the first thing you have to do is roll off the bass, preferably with a shelving filter if you are using PA speakers. The 6db floor reinforcement of the lowest frequencies is a killer. I use RCF310's both as PA and floor monitors with my duo (Sorry Russ no in-ears there, but we operate at much lower sound levels and I love the freedom) Bass through FOH needs no tweaking but I shelve 6db from 200Hz and use a 50hz HPF to get the balance with FOH back for the monitors. On resonant wooden stages I'm even more aggressive. FRFR needs a mind shift.

OK that's really interesting, I'm really contemplating trying custom fits, it is a big layout and i couldn't afford the £800-1000 some of the pro ones cost, but if they really stay put and make a better seal I'd be happy with the sound quality of the IE100's or thereabouts. Did you try the MEE's with custom moulds or universal plugs? Which ones worked best with your piano? I'm guessing those would also work best with vocals?

Damn you Now I'm going to have to lend mine to our singer, she's already commandeered my radio mic, now I'm going to lose my in-ears.😂😂

There you go, they are obviously different depths but the profile is ear shaped so similar, you can see that the plug goes off at a more acute angle on the zx10's, whether that is a good thing depends upon the angle your ear canal leaves your ears. For me the ZX10's are probably a better match but there's not a lot in it. All of us are different and the obvious solution is to get proper fitted custom in-ears. You can see I use the triple flange buds, they are a bit surgical in insertion and from time to time I can leave them behind in my ears but the seal is really good, the little flange goes right into my ears. Dave is right though; the buds are the real problem, and getting a good fit is all importan. I've tried dozens but unfortunately my two ears are completely different sizes and shapes

I'm using the IE100 pro. single driver but plenty of bass and to be honest a lot more detail in the bass due to the mids being more present. I couldn't get the sound I wanted out of the KZ10's. I sing as well as play bass and the huge midrange suckout of the KZ's just made my vocals sound horrible (well more horrible than even the reality) The IE 100's are much closer to my Sennheiser HD595's I use for personal practice. The lead vocals are much better too. I want as much isolation as I can get and then I don't need extreme volume. I want to save what's left of my hearing. the IE100's go much louder than I can handle without distortion and have more bass than I really want, nothing below 80Hz suits me for monitoring. It's the harmonics I need to tell how well or badly I'm playing. The live monitoring sound is now really pretty damn good and getting better as I climb the learning curve. That doesn't mean the KZ's are bad, if I didn't need to monitor my own vocals I'd be completely content with them. If cheap really is your aim I found that the KZ ZSN's are really rather good, my drummer pinched them to use and I realised I preferred them to the ZS10's

Just a heads up that this is a slight design fault with the P2. It's very easy to slide into the stereo position when either inserting batteries or sliding the outside sleeve back on, all of our band have done this at least once. Really simple to fix once you know and to check but the first time it happens can be a panicky moment

It's a great set list for me. It says straight away that this is a band who want to entertain an audience and gig a lot. Sure it's a bit cheesy and not what I'd listen to at home but the audience will love it and also love you if you play it with conviction. For me they aren't Dakota's they are Mustang Sally's and every covers band has a few of these in the set if they have the sense they were born with. Solid reliable songs that most audiences want you to play, floor fillers but also songs that cost you nothing to learn. It's like the posh restaurant that won't put salt on the table as the chef knows better than you, why be in hospitality if you don't like being hospitable. Personally something I try and avoid is being in a band with people who think a particular song is beneath them. It's usually because their part isn't up to their own selfish needs, no high C for the singer to show off their range, no guitar solo for the guitarist, straight 8's for the bassist and so on. You are in a band, being paid to entertain an audience who want to have fun. I've happily gigged We Will Rock You (no bass) and Seven Nation Army (even I'm bored with that, but the audience think it's my favourite song) Being in a general covers band isn't about you the musician it's about delivering pleasure, being in the centre of a big happy room. Of course there are other approaches, you can go down the tribute band or genre band routes or have a bit of identity, nothing wrong with a blues/classic rock/ska/soul/reggae band either. Dakota has great lyrics by the way and Tommy Cogbill's bass on Mustang Sally is a joy to play as is his line on Sweet Caroline. There's nothing as powerful as cheap perfume and cheap music.

Great advice above. OK you only mentioned a mic, a mix of the piezo and a mic like that is a great way to go. Your original post also implied both bass feedback and problems with mids and top end so I was trying to address both. The QSC is a great speaker, I was going to suggest that a PA speaker would be a way to go, the flatter the response the less chance of hitting those resonances. Few dedicated bass speakers or amps are truly flat response and the whole point of PA speakers is to only reproduce what they are sent. We've been looking at speakers for DB recently and a restricted bass response helps a lot. We had good results with a 'shelving response' where the inherent characteristic of the speaker starts to cut the bass fairly high up but then sees it fall slowly down to cover most of the fundamental frequencies.

With any acoustic instrument the problem is down to resonances. There are frequencies at which the body of the bass is going to resonate and other frequencies at which the air inside will also resonate. It's what makes an acoustic instrument sound different from a solid bass. If your amplification also has peaks at those frequencies you'll get feedback earlier as you turn the volume up. Your speaker will have frequency peaks and yes, some speakers are flatter than others but largely that isn't due to the diameter of the speaker. A lot of those frequencies are affected by distance, starting with the mic. Have a look at You Tube for videos on how to mic an acoustic guitar, the positioning of the mic is crucial to getting a good sound and avoiding feedback. I'm assuming you are using a vocal mic? That may have built in frequency boosts to enhance the human voice. Ultimately you might need to look at buying a new mic or going for a fitted pickup. Worth also visiting the UB section of BassChat and asking there. Don't go rushing out and buying stuff though, try and get the best out of what you have and study how other people are doing this. I remember from my PA days back in the early 70's the nightmare of mic'ing up acoustic guitars and the joy of semi acoustics with built in pickups when they first appeared. There's a learning curve I'm afraid. Good Luck

Brilliant enjoy it 😀

This, it’s probably true for most of us that our peak period for forming musical tastes started mid teens and went on for about ten years from that. Don’t underestimate them though you don’t lose interest in music just spend a little less time listening to new stuff as you age. If they are bringing instruments then they are interested in music at least. you probably want to think about pedagogy a bit; how you will teach them. All working on the same songs? Small group work? What skills do they bring? What do they want to achieve? What’s your class size? How long do you have. What instruments are they bringing? You will get to know them fairly quickly. The best advice I can give as a retired teacher is to teach the class you have. And make it fun. Good luck it’s a great thing to do.

Surely the thing to concern us is the disappearance of physical music shops. Nearly all the help I’ve had over the years has been from people who were performing musicians who were using the job to fund their passion. They were a great place to just hang out too. Now almost all of those shops have gone. This hasn’t been helped by decisions made far away by the likes of Gibson and Fender not to supply small outfits. This isn’t just true of guitar and bass either. Most of the shops selling and supporting classical instruments are disappearing too. The days when you could pop out and buy an odd string, replacement skin for your banjo and new reeds for a sax are gone. Sadly that also loses the advice and support these shops used to provide. To be part of a community of musicians. Not to mention the chance to physically try instruments out.

I think you've actually got this. Cabs, amps, pedals, strings and basses all add colouration to the sound. Amp/speaker sims are the equivalent of adding a coloured filter to a photograph. You can do this physically with a physical filter on the lens, use your phone or camera's internal processing or add it later in the studio or at the mixing desk. The think is that a sim is just adding extra filtering, if your amp/speaker already have a bit of bass boost and mid cut then a sim that adds a bit more of both in an attempt to sound like an Ampeg isn't going to work. Hence the comments about blankets being thrown over your sound and the need for multiple eq's. To continue the photography analogy using rose tinted filters isn't going to make everything in the picture pink. it sounds quite sterile when flat most cabs and speakers do some version of the smiley face eq, bass and treble boosted and mids cut back. The majority of people prefer that sound (there are scientific reasons for that) so any flat response speaker is going to sound very different until it is warmed up a bit. Whether you choose to use an amp sim or eq your own sound is really a personal choice. The amp sim is really the ready meal option, quick and simple, possibly made by someone who is a good cook and better than most of us could do, or maybe ready meals just aren't for you. Have confidence in your ears though, the end all you want is a good sound.

I think that the reason I reported back on that gig here is because It's the only time I've really pushed at the limits of what you can do with what is a pretty modest speaker. If I was doing vocal only PA or playing in a smaller venue or with a modest drummer I'd happily use them for bass with no backline. It kind of answered one of the early questions for me in the only way that matters, at a gig. I'd rather gig with 10's that sound good than go for bigger speakers that sound less good or which distort the bass at higher levels. I was pleasantly surprised. I suppose I'm saying absolute volume shouldn't be the question we should put first, or will the PA reproduce deep bass down to 20Hz or whatever. The questions should be how good will my band sound? Will their limitations really impact upon the audience's enjoyment. I was surprised just how hard I could push a compact PA, reminded just how good modern kit is. I've always said that the weak link in the PA is usually the fleshy bit. I'd almost ask you the same question about "what do you mean about"..... low end? If you mean frequencies below 80Hz then we probably do over emphasize it's importance, those frequencies are power hungry and demanding for speakers but add only modestly to audience pleasure for the sort of covers bands that you, I and @Al Krow play in. In a pub where at least some of the punters want to be able to talk, space is limited and acoustics often awful the lowest frequencies can be an issue with bass resonances and multi-path resonances distorting the sound.

I'm just revisiting this thread after our gig last Saturday which kind of demonstrated to me just how far you can push modern PA systems. I probably took the wrong speakers to the gig, we were booked to play in a pub garden in the early evening whilst people were eating. We describe ourselves as a semi acoustic duo and the landlord was making plans to move us inside because of inclement weather. Then the sun came out. The pub is on a regular walk we do in the middle of nowhere with the best views over the Dorset AONB, absolutely stunning. Music is a new venture for the pub and 5-30 on a Sat seemed madness to me. Indoors the rooms are small and I wasn't expecting a big audience given the expected rain. I decided to take the RCF310's and not the 15's. So we set off and the sun comes out before we get there, the pub absolutely knew what it was doing. They'd closed the restaurant and set up a barbeque ended up with at least 70people spread around the garden in pods and at the usual pub picnic tables, some of the tables were 40m away from us. New situation for us but two RCF 310's were looking very inadequate. So we are two vox, guitar and bass with programmed drums for some songs playing cheesy covers. No backline with two ART 310's plus another two as floor monitors covering around 12,000sq ft in the open air with no backline, hmmm So set up and out front using all our saved settings there is a distinct lack of bass and with the sun on the speakers I can see the cones are moving a lot, I'm not going to have a lot of volume left. I roll off the bass below 50Hz fairly sharply and boost a bit of everything in the upper bass/low mids and I've got the bass itself with a 24db/octave filter that I move from 30Hz to 40Hz and just turn it all up a bit more. The bass has warmed up a bit and with a couple of extra db is sitting better in the mix. It's the best I can do. So we start and the first thing that happens is we are asked to turn down, the oldest people in the pub have chosen the table closest to the band. the staff see what is going on and the people on that table disappear inside to finish their meal. I wandered down into the garden a couple of times to check the sound, and also if I'm honest to see how far I could get with my new Lekato wireless thingies (about 30m as it happens) the sound is stunning, vocals guitar and bass all crystal clear. The punters are all happy and people 30m away are singing along now they've finished their food. It's loud enough that they are not self conscious. By the end of the gig we have some dancing. I ask around at the break and everybody says that the sound level is about right and the people at the far end say we have been louder than anyone else so far and that was good. The overload lights on the speakers have flickered a few times but it isn't noticeably distorted out front. So there you go bass and eDrums through a couple of 10" tops in a large garden outdoors and it can be done. The same system indoors would have been deafening with 70 people and we would have backed it off quite a lot.

I wonder why? It is still listed on RCF's catalogue.

There is no way I'd go back to an analogue mixer. Just the size and the ability to store your settings rather than just remember them is enough to make the change. That's without all the extra bells and whistles and separate monitor mixes or each band member. I'm afraid I chickened out of the XR18 learning curve and dodgy router and plumped for the RCF M18 which is a lot simpler, designed specifically for live mixing and has a router that works 100%. It sounds wonderful and there is virtually no learning curve, everything is pretty much completely intuitive. I had a mix set up in minutes straight out of the box. Having meters on everything means you don't need a line check with the audience having to endure endless one-two's I can see straight away if anyone has any hum or noise and if I have a signal and then I can just walk out into the auditorium to do the soundcheck starting with all the saved settings. I can see the advantages of the XR18 but if you only want your mixer for live gigs with a pub band and have everything working first time then this is an easy transition from analogue. I'd buy another tomorrow.

You've gathered by now that the Crown 1502 is the go to for this sort of set up. More power than you'll ever need and the DSP means you can set power limits and have 24db/8ve HPF saving you the cost of a Thumpinator. Reliability comes as standard though to be fair most PA power amps are reliable, even Behringer if you are on a budget. You can also go stereo or run a mix of cabs with a proper crossover to get the sound you want. I wonder if you are going through the PA why you want to have a lot of sound on stage which you will feed into the vocal mics (to be fair maybe you don't, I'm probably reading too much into this) If the PA is what the audience hear then all you need on stage is monitoring, preferably pointing away from the mics. The other factor is that taking a graphic to create your sound is a great choice but could be overkill too. The biggest problem on most stages is too much bottom end. If your speaker is up against any hard surface (floor or rear wall) then you'll get a 6db boost at least in the lower frequencies, more if you have more than one hard surface, on top of that the FOH speakers will radiate the bass in every direction so the PA bass adds to your onstage sound and because of the time delay will muddy the bass as well. It's going to be be really hard to mimic the FOH sound exactly however good the eq. The only way to take room acoustics out of the equation is to use in-ears. The next best option (stating the obvious here) is to use a PA speaker to mimic the PA speaker. You'll have to trim the bass but at least the rest will be 'PA sounding'. Unless you go for one of the new FRFR speakers changing the amp isn't necessarily going to give you all you want. The power amp will remove the colouring from the bass amp but not from the speaker. You would probably be better off using a good quality active PA speaker as a floor monitor to achieve your FOH sound. Better still use in-ears The trouble is that monitoring in that way involves the whole band. If they are relying on your backline for monitoring your bass then you'll need a traditional 'stack' and what you are suggesting is a good solution potentially with more power than you'll ever need. Maybe you should also consider an active PA speaker as backline too.