Phil Starr

This could be read any number of ways, was this just you without the band playing bass through the PA? If so that would only tell you a little about your PA. It may have been down to room acoustics. An empty hall with no audience can be incredibly reverberant so this may or may not have been a fair test. I sympathise with your frustration though. I know the Mackies and although they are more than matched by modern rivals they aren't bad sounding speakers. You ought to be able to get a pretty good sound out of them. Carlsbro though have a pretty poor reputation and they look like they are in far too small a box to be effective subs. They could be an issue. HPF on a bass at 70Hz is way too high. Another thought is that you haven't said how you set the relative levels on the subs and tops. The temptation is to set them to give a good thump rather than match the output. The idea is not that the bass is louder than the tops without subs but that it is at the same level but with the lower frequencies extended downwards in frequency and power handling of the whole system increased. At the crossover point the tops and subs should be at the same volume. Unless you have measuring equipment try playing a recording you know well through the PA and adjust the levels to make the bass sound as natural as possible at low/medium volumes. If you can't reproduce recorded music well then you are only going to find it difficult to impossible to create a good sound from the band. Moving on to a possible speaker upgrade. Until recently we used QSC K12-2's for our PA. In typical pubs I could run bass through them at high enough levels to work well. These were providing all of the FOH sound but I had a little Hartke as an on-stage monitor. Since then our singer left and took her QSC's with her so I've recently bought a couple of RCF 745's They'll do most of our gigs including kick and bass at high volumes without needing subs or backline. I have subs but I've only taken them out once in three years. You just don't need them for the average British pub gig. I'm not sure that answers your basic question, whether you need to buy new PA speakers. I think that is probably up to you but you ought to be able to get at least a reasonable sound out of what you have. If you decide to upgrade then I'd probably spend on some really capable tops and only add the subs if experience says you are struggling at more than one of your venues.

We use a similar setup but with RCF310's for my duo. The bass sound I get out of the speakers on the poles is the best I've had playing live. The problem is that the speakers are designed to be on poles and the monitors on the floor have so much bass they are difficult to use as it drowns out the vocals. that is now solved by eq in the new mixer but the old passive mixer wouldn't allow different eq for the aux out. Thats with a duo however and a recorded drum track. I doubt you'd be quite there with a couple of 10's for FOH if you have anything but a very restrained drummer.

I've had recent success with Joinmyband. We advertised there and had 10 replies. two only wanted to dep and we auditioned five, the other three couldn't make it on the day but were serious possibilities. All had played with previous gigging bands. Two turned out to be exceptional. I've always struggled to find drummers in the past so maybe we just lucked out or maybe there are a shortage of gigging bands. Your problem is going to be lack of gigs, there aren't many drummers who just want rehearsals with a couple of gigs a year. I've never found a drummer who actually enjoys rehearsal but maybe that's unlucky. The trick I think is careful wording of any ad. Be clear in what you want and don't want, and what you have to offer in return. We have a six year history of paid gigs roughly every other week apart from covid and dates already in the diary which helps. We didn't want anyone without experience so we asked for links to their bands and video/recordings. We met some very nice people and it was a shame we had to choose just one.

I've gigged with my Gnome. It's plenty loud enough for the average pub and as an on-stage monitor if you have a little PA support for the bigger gigs. People forget that we used to gig with 100 and 200W bass amps. Or that volume is heard in decibels not watts. (at a given frequency if you want to be pedantic) Going from 200W to 400W sounds like a big jump but going from 117db to 120db sounds hardly worth paying for, though that's what you'd get with an averagely efficient speaker. I wonder how many of us would pay double for a car with an extra 3mph top speed. especially since we normally drive at an average 50mph on a good day.

It's good to know that the doctors don't give up on even old buggers like us. Good luck with the surgery. Hope it goes well and you are back to doing all the things you love.

I must resist……. Resistance is futile. Oh well! The cab is doing the heavy lifting all you need to do is make sure your cage doesn’t make a noise of its own. Anything you put on the back/sides just needs not to rattle. Glue your wooden slats in place well and they aren’t.going to make a noise or move independently of the panels, they may even stiffen up the cab which would be a good thing. The bars just need to be properly secured, I doubt whether the metal bars would be moved more than a metal grille so unless they rattle they won’t make a noise. The only problem might be resonance. They could act like the bars of a glockenspiel. You could kill that with exactly the same method you use to damp bass strings. Mute the vibration by resting something soft against them part way along their length. Frankly just build it and see what happens, I doubt you’ll have any major problems.

I haven't read all the posts so someone may have already given this answer. Why not contact @Ashdown Engineering? They are just the most helpful people and they will know. I love Bass Chat but really; arguing about how flat 'flat' actually is probably wasn't helpful.

Yeah I've wondered if there isn't a little bit of HPF filtering of the lowest frequencies as I've not had the low rumble at any of the venues I've played recently. I'm hoping to do a bit of response measuring of amps at the SW bass bash in a few weeks' time so I'll check it out then if possible. Ha ha it does look a bit silly perched on the 112, just about acceptable on the 110T I suppose it could go on a pedalboard

Oh well, I've bitten. The Gnome is my preferred amp nowadays. It sits in my hard case and I'm increasingly appreciative of its solidity. I've changed the way we do sound too with bass pretty much always going through the PA. I've also gone over to using cabs with a tweeter alternating between a single 110T and a single 112T which is slightly louder. I also carry a Peavey MiniMax 500W amp which is what I mean to use. I almost always end up using the Gnome though, it sounds better. It's just a flat neutral sound without all the tonal options of the Peavey but I'm using my Zoom B1ON to do tone shaping so I don't need the Peavey's bells and whistles, or the super noisy fan either. The Gnome has the least noisy fan of any amp I've tried. The Gnome so far has always been loud enough. Last week we auditioned 5 drummers, all different levels of aggression with the sticks. I took the Gnome (no PA just floor monitors) with the 112 turned up high and immediately turned it down where it stayed all evening. No problems at all. Not 'shortly' but .... The Gnome gets warm in use, even at home practice levels though it doesn't get much warmer at gig levels in summer heatwaves. The metal body acts as a heatsink, helped by the fan and there is a limit to how small you can go. The inside of the amp is fairly crowded too. If you doubled the power you'd need to think about doubling the amps surface area to maintain the internal temperature

OK that sounds good Ive just bought some RCF ART745’s so how about an FRFR versus others comparison. I’ve two identical PA amps so running four speakers against the RCFs would be simple. Alternatively I could run four amps through the most neutral speaker I can find to do an amp shootout Your call

Do we want a shootout this year? In past years it hasn’t been great in the side room where the acoustics are awful. I’m thinking of trying a shootout in the main hall for maybe 20-30 mins. We could compare speakers or amps. It could then involve everyone but would disrupt normal proceedings. I could do it after lunch when you’ll be to full to move anyway 😊

I went through this process a few months back. I decided for me I wanted a tool for the job I had in mind rather than a mass of bells and whistles I wouldn’t use. I play in two bands, a four piece and a duo and I’ve never played in anything bigger than a five piece. We play small venues and mix ourselves so it is set and forget. We rarely tweak front of house once we’ve got a reasonable mix. Space on stage is always an issue. Going digital was the first decision. A small footprint stage box solves a lot of space issues and speeds set up. Being able to save settings for the next gig is brilliant and I have saved settings for both bands and for rehearsals where we have a different set up. With a four piece we needed four vocal mics, three instrument mics and we rarely mic drums but would use a three mic technique if we did. Spare channels are great but I’d never used the ten channels on my old analogue mixer in six years. Biggest issues for me were convenience, reliability and ease of use. We also wanted to go in-ears so plenty of aux channels were must haves. I went for the RCF M18. It’s tiny, has a great router unlike rivals and stunningly intuitive software. More features than I’ll ever use at a gig and it sounds good. It’s not as versatile as the Behringer, only recording in stereo but there is almost no learning curve to operate it. The software is seamless, no glitches and the things you need to hand are just where you need them. The menu structure means nothing is more than two clicks away. I looked at the Behringer X18, sound raft and Zoom as well. They all have pluses, the Behringer is seriously flexible and I liked the physical controls on the Zoom but for functionality with a small live band the M18 is a great practical solution. I like things that just work.

I’ll show you mine 😏

I'm not sure, but JBL are ridiculously overclaiming to be honest. You can't get 137db out of a 15" driver, 127db will cause permanent hearing damage in 1sec at this level and is about what you might hear close to the runway with a jet aircraft taking off never mind 137db which would involve 10x more acoustic power. The compression unit on the horn is 1.5" and power handling is going to be around 35W so the amp might be 750W but the one driving the tweeter is throttled down to 50W at least. That being said JBL are a reliable brand and make competent gear. I doubt they are much better sounding, if at all than the better Yammy's or RCF's but to be fair I haven't heard them.

That would mean a budget of £1100 if you are looking for new which gives you a bit of choice. I've always liked Yamaha as reliable and well built and I've had a couple of Yamaha's over the years. I chose the RCF's after auditioning them next to Yamahas. To me the midrange is just that little bit better so vocals come out really well. The Yammy's are still good though and I too quite like a wooden box. If your South West is anywhere near Bristol then a trip to PMT would let you hear both next to each other.

Hi Alex, you'll probably be better off in the Amps and Speakers sub forum where most of the tech nerds hang out. There's lots of experienced people there. PA doesn't really have a home unfortunately so it pops up everywhere. Do you have a budget in mind and are you looking for new or used? The good news is that PA has come on in leaps and bounds in recent years and there is lots of really capable kit at OK prices. Starting at the top firms like Yamaha, RCF, QSC are making some great kit. RCF for me are the ones to beat and even the bottom of the range are decent speakers. I've just bought a couple of used ART 745's for £1200 if that is within budget. A pair of new ART 715's will be around £1100. They've just discontinued the 3 series so there might be some bargain ART 315's coming up. If around £1000 is too much don't worry there are plenty of other choices Welcome to Basschat

You'd be better off asking @stevie about the other speakers. I just built the cab for that design and helped with the trialling, Stevie did all the design work. I'm in the middle of a run of gigs and auditions at the moment so I won't be able to look at this quickly atm.

Ortega Floor Amp Stand, Black at Gear4music

The 110T is a great choice for a first cab build. Not least because you'll end up with a great little cab at the end, they really sound good. We've called this the 'easy build' technique for a reason. It's about as simple as it gets once you have the panels cut, no harder than building a flatpack bookshelf, if you make a mistake it's simple enough to seal any gaps with mastic and you are pretty much guaranteed a working cab. Good luck with the build, I hope it goes well and I look forward to your review of your cab at the end when you get to plug it in and play. Ask away if you get stuck.

Yer tiz, where's that to then?

I don't think you'll regret that decision, except for the 2 mins it takes at either end f the gig where you have to lift them onto the stands :). My 745's are replacement for the QSC12's the singer took when she moved on. never struggled and never let us down. These should do as well and with slightly sweeter vocals too.

What you are saying is all good. Two tens can theoretically make the same sound levels whether they are in a PA speaker or in the backline. there are two provisos though. On the floor the floor actually reinforces the bass and you can't be certain the manufacturers would choose the same 10" driver. Raw bass will have a greater dynamic range than recorded bass and bass in live music is often mixed forward so it's not unreasonable to expect lower excursion from the bass driver in a PA speaker than a bass speaker. This is probably where all PA speakers aren't equal, the best ones will have the excursion. I just can't tell you the 910 is one of those and it will be beaten by the 912. I did wonder if I should point that out after I posted but you got there first The 912's are 18kg I think and quite big units. Does this still qualify as compact for you? I've actually used the 310's as a bass rig and even done a gig with just one, and that is with a drummer. The problem is that there is too much bass when they are on the floor, for bass they are better balanced up on poles. For me I know they can cope with bass as the PA at many gigs but that's how I play and mix. I roll off at 40Hz and use some gentle compression and we play pop rather than rock which all helps. the other plus is that all the mk4 Art series RCF's have really great speaker management built in to the DSP (also true of most modern PA speakers) so you can hammer them really hard with no risk of failure. There is no real one size fits all PA system and I'm currently carrying (storing mainly) 3 PA systems The 310's, RCF745's and a Wharfedale system with subs, even then I know we can't do the biggest outdoor gigs so I still can't cover 100% of the gigs we do in a year.

Ha ha I was going to suggest you buy one of those to add to your 310's as a cost efficient way of getting what you want. You'll have just a little bit more confidence with the 910's in placve of the 310's and they will probably sound a littlebetter too. The 702 will let you get a lot more out of your system when you need to and the crossover in the sub will let you push the tops a bit harder. It'll be a nice system.

I can see what Russ is saying and it is true that there is a limit to how hard you can work a 10" woofer. I'm amazed by how many options RCF offer they also offer 10's in the HD and NX series as well. It looks like they have withdrawn the 3 series though. Each one is a step up with either better bass drivers or better compression drivers or a better cab. RCF actually started out making drive units and have the luxury of being able to specify a driver for each cab. Generally you'll get bigger voice coils and hence more power handling longer voice coils and bigger magnets and hence more excursion, tighter bass and increases in volumes in return for the extra cost. I haven't had the chance to pull a 9 series apart yet so this is based only upon speculation but the 935 sounds great. So looking at what you put up for comparison, yes you have a bigger voice coil and more power handling in the 9 series so I think it looks perfectly sensible to expect an extra 3db from the 9 series. The power ratings are a nonsense, probably what the amp can do short term, I doubt the compression drivers can handle more than 30W thermal so upping the power from 100W to 350 is a nonsense. Yamaha and everyone else does the same so just take it all with a pinch of salt. The DSP won't let the amplifiers reach full power so everything is safe but it lets them tell you that you have 1000W available. So 1db difference is what you can just hear if you have two speakers next to each other. In practice it would make no difference for a gigging band. 3db is probably the minimum needed to be noticeably louder, but not by much. It's difficult to exact but as a really rough estimate if your 310's are fine for a pub with 50 people in the 910's might be good for 60-70. They probably will have better 10" drivers which will give you a little more bass handling as part of the package. Only expect marginal gains though. Only you can judge if those gains are worth £850 minus trading in your 310's Might be worth seeing if a local PMT have them in stock so you can take your 310's along and compare them

FB Marketplace for this sort of thing. You'll be picking up and able to see and test what is going to be old gear. None of the hassle of dealing remotely and getting involved with an eBay dispute. More chance of picking up a bargain too as a lot of people just use it to clear out their lofts/sheds/whatever. There's a TKO 115 for £120 when I looked yesterday.