Phil Starr

It'll be a slot port as requested on the bottom of the cab. I don't like narrow slots so the barefaced vertical port is not ideal IMO, even if it looks aesthetic. That makes this a tall cab and with the 19" top it more or less designs itself. I only need to find an hour or so to fiddle with volumes and tunings and the design work is essentially done.

That's great, it means your cab is almost designed. the original Basschat Mk1 1x12 was designed for a 19" amp so basically you'll be getting two of those. If I remember it weighed about 11kg with ceramic speaker magnets. Yours should come in well under 20kg with the bigger cab but lighter drivers.

Last graph for a while This one shows the Faital 320 in three different sized boxes. The pink is the 50l box, red is 85l and green is 35l. This time the boxes are tweaked to get the 'best' out of each box. What you see happening will be true of any speaker put in different box sizes in general terms. The larger box allows the best bass response in that it is flatter and goes down lower. 85l is about perfect for this speaker in that respect. -3db is well below 50 Hz and -10db which is what most manufacturers quote is pretty close to the fundamental of bottom B on a fiver. Putting any speaker in a smaller cab introduces the bass hump and the smaller the cab the higher the frequency at which it happens. It doesn't show well in this graph but the peak gets higher too. The thing is that for a bass cab more bass isn't really a universally good thing. Our ears don't pick up sub100Hz very well but mics do so the vocal mics will amplify this bass even though we can't really hear it and the PA will quickly start to struggle. (use the 80Hz filters guys) If you are stuck in the corner those bass frequencies will be boosted and you might well start to excite room resonances. In listening tests we carried out with bass players most bassists thought the pink response was 'bassiest' not the red one. Only about one in three recognised the extra deep lows of the red response. That is bass players, most of humanity gets bass information from the second harmonic in the signal 80-160Hz. So now the question. How big do you want the cab to be? Given the trade off. I can give you the Pink response in a 100litre 2x12 using this lightweight value for money driver. I can get an extended response in a smaller box by using a speaker with a bigger magnet. Or I can get the box size right down with the pink response with the right driver if I can find one. A 100l 2x12 isn't huge but it is substantial, a few years back it was around the norm but with cheap drivers and for me a bit too much of a warm sounding hump. If you leave me to it I'll design around the Faital 12PR320 and try and optimise size and response but I think physics will push me to an 80-100l cab. If you want something smaller I'll look for another driver, though the perfect driver can be hard to find.

Outed

OK I've managed to grab a few minutes and I'm looking at the Faital 320 as the speaker to beat. So I'm looking at tuning first I can shape the response by tuning the port to differing frequencies, in this case gold is tuned to 45Hz and the purple to 55Hz. Tuning higher gives the raised hump at 90Hz and the lower tuning gives an almost flat response. For me a 3dB hump is just too warm and woolly 1db is just noticeable so 2dB is kind of where I'd like it to sit. But, it isn't just the response that is affected. The software is adding the output from the port and the speaker itself and when th port is active it is damping the movement of the speaker. That in turn affects power handling. So this graph shows the power handling. You can see the power handling is restored to the full 300W of the thermal limit where the ports are tuned at 45 and 55Hz in the different tunings. The dip above this is because the speaker excursion is beyond the limits the speaker can handle. What's going on here is the coil is moving outside the safety of the magnetic field. So at 70Hz the power handling is reduces to 120W at the lower tuning. I'm going to be looking at every aspect of the speakers behaviour even though I'm going to be talking about bass response most of the time. I might come up with a recommendation that looks sub optimal but in the background I'll be trading off gains in one are against a cost somewhere else. Speaker design is a bit like squeezing a balloon. Solve one problem and another one pops up elsewhere

It was always our hope that these designs would last for many years so it is great that you are building this we hope that it will stimulate others to do the same.

When the time comes we have other cab designs on BC and if you want to build a custom there are plenty of people to help if you need it. Got to be easier than the EBB5

all ported in 50litres and I think tuned to either 60 or 50Hz, my computer crashed and i didn't save the files. I do a lot of this when selecting drivers. In the olden days I'd have standard cabs and just swap speakers now I usually start with a 50l cab for 12's and a 30l cab for 10's and computer modelling which lets you cover a lot of ground. you can tell pretty much from the T/S parameters what you expect but it's really easy to see the graphics. Once I've got a driver selected I'll tweak the cab volume and tuning but you can only move the envelope so far.

Yes it is compatible and will be a lot louder than your current speaker. I used one of the MK111's with a Peavey 2x15 and it sounded great. The big question is whether you want to lug such a big speaker around, only you can answer that. I don't think using the force will help you get it up a flight of stairs Not many people are prepared to carry such a monster nowadays so you should be able to get it at a good price.

The Red plot is the Kappalite John it gives a flatter plot in a smaller cabinet but I used the 50l cab as it was one they all worked in. Since we know @JPJlikes a warm old school sound I'll go back and look to see what's available that might be better than the Faital. Actually since you've been using the Faital how about telling us what you make of the bass response. Though I suspect @stevie will have tuned it lower in a 2-way cab.

OK that's good, I'd have gone for the Kappalite's myself. So we've eliminated them. Although I could force a hump into the response by reducing the size of the cab. If you want full on bass and not too much else you could go for the Beyma's if you are quick as there are still a few available but the Faital 320's are great speakers and have that upper midrange lift of an old school speaker, well within your budget and lightweight too. I'm not sure if @RichardH has the same speaker I have at the moment but mine has the the Faital and one on its own gives you a real punch in the stomach. I'll have a better look at that and see what I come up with.

This is where it gets interesting. This shows the maximum output the speakers can make. All of them have a dip centred around 80Hz. This is normal and is due to excursion limits. The speaker has to move further for low frequencies and below 50Hz none of them can manage the excursion. At 60Hz the port is making most of the sound and the speaker movement is damped by the port so they can all do their thing. At low levels over-excursion just manifests itself as distortion, at high levels it can destroy the speaker or lead to the coil overheating and reduced output or power compression. Over excursion reduces the power handling of the speaker. The Kappa comes out best with only a tiny dip which would be inaudible, The Deltalites have a significant dip of over 6db and the power handling before distortion drops to 60W. The dips in the other two aren't anything I would worry about but the Kappa is definitely going to give the tightest sound in this box. The Beyma is the strange one as it is 6db louder at 40Hz than the others in this box. I don't think a 40Hz output is musically useful in a bass speaker. our hearing down there isn't very good but it can excite room resonances and muffle the bass. In a band setting I prefer those frequencies to be left to the drums with the bass filling the gap between kick and the other instruments. If I'm mixing and the desk allows it I'll filter the bass at 50hz and my ideal sound is flat between 80-160Hz. If I'm designing a small speaker I do design in that extra warmth a mid-bass hump gives to compensate for the lack of bottom end. In listening tests most bassists however seem to like the warm bloom in their sound. It's a bit marmite though, you love it or hate it. At this point then it's a matter of taste. For me at this budget point I'd go for the Kappa, The UK prices for Eminence speakers has recently improved so they are competitive again. I like a tight articulate bass sound and would roll off the bass at the lowest frequencies anyway. However it is a matter of taste not right or wrong. The other thing is that of these speakers all but the SM212 have a midrange peak that livens up the sound of a single driver, effectively the Delta and the Faital have a mid-scoop, the result of that low hump in the bass and the mid peak. They sound like a bass speaker. The SM212 has a flat but extended mid/top and sounds more neutral. I gigged with it for years and you just have to eq differently but I've moved on to cabs with horns and I'm happier with that. So you have lots of options but the first choice is nice warm old school or tight and articulate bass.

Mixing speakers is a bit of a lottery. No speaker is truly flat and the character or timbre is a result of all the lumps and bumps in the response. With two speakers the peaks won't line up and the combination will create a completely different set of highs and lows. You'll lose the character of both speakers. On top of that you'd have to match sensitivity and speakers have to be matched to the box so you'd need two boxes.

OK this is the frequency plot for 4 speakers. The Kappalite used by Barefaced (red) Beyma Sm212 (blue) Deltalite (purple) and the Faital 320 (green) all in the same cabinet 50litres. You know what the Deltalite's sound like so that gives you a starting point. They have a peak around 120Hz of about 2db which is colouring the bass and the bass rolls off slowly from there. The Beyma has a similar peak slightly les high than the Delta's but has the highest output at 40Hz of all the speakers. The FAital has the highest peak of all, around 3db and the highest output between 50-100Hz. the interesting one is the Kappalite with the most powerful magnet it has the flattest response down to 70Hz and then rolls off more quickly that the other speakers. Remember this is just the bass response up to 200Hz so not the whole picture. Remember these are all in the same box, they can all be put in different boxes, the beyma would love a larger box and the Kappa would be better in a smaller box, or i can tune the boxes differently and shape the curves a little. Despite this I think it is fair to say the Beyma is going to have the deepest bass and the Kappa is going to be the most honest speaker with all the rest tending towards warm sounding.

That would work to give you the deep bass but you'd be a bit limited by the power handling of the compression driver of the horn and you'd have to consider how the crossover would work. It would handle the crossover to one bass driver only. You could wire it that way but then the mids from the second driver would interfere with the output from the horn. None of this would be a disaster necessarily and it's something many people have tried with other speakers and been happy with. You were right in assuming you could just put two speakers in a double sized box btw though you/I would have to recalculate the port size. To be fair a couple of us in the design team were looking to try running a mk2 (tweetered) on top of a Mk1 including me so I obviously didn't think it daft. The bass you get from two SM212's is extraordinary but they are a bit dark without any tweeter. 'Beat' was only something I used because the Deltalites are a nice speaker and 'only' cost £134 at the moment comparable with the £139 for the Faital 320 which we used in the Mk 3. There's no point in spending £500 unless you get an advantage over spending £268 on the Delta's. Of course 'advantage' is another subjective word. So I guess what I'm trying to find out is what you expect to gain. The Beyma SM212 has been discontinued despite my contacting Beyma directly but Blue Aran bought up their remaining stock and they still have a few left. The SM212 does have an advantage in low power handling/excursion over anything else at that price but if you wanted to go that route you'd need to buy them before BA sell out. Are you in a rush? I'm not going to have much time this week but I'll offer you a few options as soon as I have time to model them.

OK That's helpful, I'd identified the Deltalites as a possibility So are you looking to beat the SWR or just for something different? £250 per driver is a top price for a 12 so you'd have a wide choice

OK that's a good starting point, I'm guessing lightweight is not an issue then Those Carlsbro's probably have high efficiency as they have short throw speakers and of course lots of them. You won't get that out of a 2x12 and modern drivers without going for something with short voice coils and restricted power handling as a result. So what sort of an amp would you be going for? Am I designing for a 100W valve amp or a 5-800W classD? (I'm picturing a 500W class A/B from the 19" spec) How are you going to use the speaker? All purpose gigging speaker, with or without PA support, All the bass coming from the backline with John Bonham and Keith Moon doubling up on drums? What sort of tone are you after is another issue too. Finally the big one. What's the budget?

Hi, I've been wondering about adding to the designs and publishing them here. I thought a 2x10 or a 15 would be next though we did briefly discuss a simple build 1x12T along the lines of our 110T. The biggest problem is not the design but because all our speakers are built then proper testing and measurement is followed by extensive gigging before we recommend them. It's the testing and development that takes the time. Maybe we could do something different and design a 2x12 for you and ask you to document the build. We could then get proper drawings done and others could copy the build. That is assuming you just want a straight 12 with no horn and crossover which we couldn't do without testing and measurement. Would you be up for that?

This is one of the clearest and most concise summaries I've seen. I suspect I might be quoting this for a while. Interestingly the Bugera has been a subject of much debate and as a result has been repeatedly measured at around 720W depending upon the distortion levels you want to measure it at. That's entirely consistent with the figure of 705W RMS calculated above. There's a genuine dilemma for amp designers and manufacturers. You can design an amp to score well in the standard tests at 1/8 ratings or beef up the power supply, heat sinking and a few components and deliver a more rugged amp that will deliver in a wider range of conditions. In my book that makes it a better amp and likely to prove more reliable to boot but it is then marketed against amps that look better on paper. On the upside such manufacturers should build a better reputation long term. For me I'd prefer a regulated market where only standardised figures are allowed to be quoted in advertisements and penalties are imposed upon companies who deliberately mislead. Even this 'simple' explanation @agedhorsehas offered is not easy for a non technical musician to follow. I'd like us as a society to encourage the good guys and discourage sharp practice. Think VW and emissions.

Welcome to BassChat. You've probably had to wait a bit for an answer because neither of those things are really bass equipment so nobody here will be very familiar with them. Neither am I but to me these look like domestic kit for people who just want to go camping and make a bit more noise or recharge batteries. Eye wateringly expensive too. The battery pack is no match for an ordinary leisure battery which will typically carry four times that charge and cost about a third (admittedly they will be much heavier). The Soundboks speaker is just another bluetooth speaker. Admittedly a 10" speaker is unusual. I sincerely doubt that it will create 121db sound levels at 40Hz even despite it's extraordinary price. You don't want bluetooth when playing bass anyway as it has a time delay (latency) which would make playing along with anyone else tricky. The problem is that bass is power hungry so portable speakers are bass light and batteries area a bulky way of providing power so power is limited and portable amps tend to be power light. Roland make battery powered PA amps in their Cube series and other people have used battery powered PA amps. The other approach is to look for something to run your normal rig from, something called an inverter that converts battery power to mains voltage. This isn't simple because not every amp will work with every inverter. Someone will come along and link you to the relevant threads about portable bass amps. Because there is so little choice in the market a few of us have looked at DIY approaches and there is a thread where someone built a compact battery powered combo and I've designed a mini bass speaker here which a few other people have built too. House Jam Micro Cab - Amps and Cabs - Basschat

Likewise, apologies for delay in response. My buddies at Essex Amp Repair appear to be having problems making contact with distributor / parts. Transpires that I need a replacement power module...... The problem in a nutshell. Mark Bass won't deal direct and support even the best repairers and the only place to get replacements is Real Electronics who have a monopoly.

That sounded pretty good Al, which bass cabs were you using? Actually it speaks well for the mids in those cabs, female vocals are what I tend to use to to audition cabs when I'm doing listening tests as anything nasty going on usually jumps out at you as a change in the voice if you use a recording you know. I use Western Highway by Maura O'Connell as a go to and I know Stevie uses Sade I use classical music to give speakers a proper run out. The lowest fundamental frequency of a female voice is 165-255 Hz so the improvement in the lower ranges of her voice isn't affected by any changes in the bottom two octaves of your cabs, that's about low mids and may just be about the tonal variations between two speakers or just about venue acoustics but anyway the mids worked well for her.

I think that is a sensible approach. Just to be completely fair I liked my MB Tube a lot and it was reliable until someone knocked it of the stack at an open mic. I've no evidence that their gear is any less reliable than most or than you would expect of any product sold in the thousands. My only issue is with their support.

That's encouraging that it could be something simple. The trouble is that you need to have confidence in it, do you have a backup plan for the gig? A DI box or multi fx pedal or anything else that could feed to the PA. If it's a hired PA they should be able to give you bass into your monitors.

Dare I say it again? Welcome to the club. Mark Bass have outsourced their after sales support to Real Electronics who don't really repair amps but will do board swaps. They are granted a monopoly by MB who don't support UK repairers with parts supplies or circuit diagrams. As a result Real offer a take it of leave it service. Their treatment of you by pointlessly replacing the pots and charging a substantial fee for a couple of hours work and a couple of quid in parts falls well below what you should expect of a competent repairer. As you agreed to the 'repair' it's hard for you to go to the small claims court, which of course they will be aware of. The answer is simple, don't buy Mark Bass until they fix this.