Phil Starr

We were running late, partly because we wanted to check the responses weren't an artifact of our measuring equipment. By the time I came to look for you you'd just left.

Coincidentally we were trying to measure amp responses at the South West Bass Bash yesterday. We didn't gather as much data as we'd like and the BAM was one we missed. We'll put up some results when we have them. The response of the Gnome however we captured. It is really odd and similar to what you have for the BAM. The Trace Elf was a 'traditional smiley face' response with some healthy HPF going on. I didn't spend long doing this but here is a pic of the controls giving an approximately flat response on the Gnome

Thanks so much for a lovely, lovely day. So many friends I didn't get a chance to talk to and so many I did. My apologies to both Special thanks to Mike for organising things and his wife (who must have a name other than Mrs Scrumpy) for the wonderful food.

If anybody is interested I've a couple of empty 1x12 cabs far from new and well used but free to anyone interested. If you are a lazy DIY'er They would suit a wide variety of 12" drivers. Let me know and you can take them away from the bash saving a lot of hassle with postage.

It's all good

@Chienmortbb how long will it take to take a measurement including the wiring/connecting up time? It might be quite quick in which case the more the merrier. BUT this is the first time we've tried this

me too

This

I've been really happy with mine, I can get the same accuracy as I do on my table saw and sizing large sheets is a whole lot easier. Scoring first is just so easy and makes the finished edge much cleaner.

Plywood isn't a nice material to work with a lot of the time unless it is really good quality, you have my sympathy. The first question is how are you intending to finish this? If you are sanding and painting then fairly ordinary fillers will work well. I use Toupret from screwfix and mix it up with a little white glue added to the water, about 1:5. To stop the edges splintering I score the cut first, Easy if you have machine tools or a plunge saw. You can also apply tape along the cutting line which reduces lifting. Using really sharp blades helps a lot, worn teeth which are all slightly different thicknesses will guarantee splintering If you check most ply has a good side and a poor side, make sure the good veneer is on the outside.

I'd love you to try the DB with our basschat designs and to have the chance to chat to you about a possible future speaker design specifically for a proper bass. I love a challenge

Actually it would be interesting to campare some older designs with newer ones. This is just frequency response though

Thanks that will be really interesting to compare to the Warwick

On a cheerier note @Chienmortbband I are hoping to carry out some measurement of amplifier frequency responses. We'd like to settle some of the debates we've been having this year such as where is flat on the eq and do all amps have built in HPF/deep bass filtering. It would be interesting to see which amps colour the sound and which ones just amplify. One burning question is are the TC BAM and the Warwick Gnome identical and does the Elf have Trace magic? I have a Gnome but if you have one of the others it would be good to test them. If you have anything else it would all be interesting and hopefully we can tell you for certain your amps response and even what response you are setting when you eq. Should be interesting. Personally I'm bringing an RCF ART745, I'm trying to bring all the BC home build designs to try: the Mk1 12 and the 'easy build 12', other people are bringing the MK2 and Mk3. I'll have the 110T and the House Jam micro cab, a new 1x8 and a 1x15 prototype.

Thanks for saying this Mike, my wife is currently very ill and as a result is vulnerable. I'm going to have to isolate from her and test every day after the bash until I can be confident I haven't picked anything up. I was thinking of dropping out but this gives me confidence. It's a big airy room and there is no reason we can't all keep each other safe. Thankyou everyone else too.

You're a bass player what are you doing up there!!!!!

One thing we haven't mentioned is that the Gnome is very sensitive/has high gain. My very ordinary passive J drives it perfectly well with gain and volume at 10 o'clock . You can't really judge how many watts you are driving into the speakers from the gain positions. All you really need is enough gain to drive the amp flat out once you are doing that there is no advantage in extra gain or turning the volume knob any further. There is no real disadvantage in having too much gain but in a shop people often start with the knobs in the same low position, extra gain will make that amp appear to be louder so high gain amps might have a sales advantage

Expect a rash of people searching your posts to see what that was

10's with 15" subs are a fine combination and you don't need huge tops if you use subs. I've got 12's plus Subs which I'd use for outside gigs but the RCF 745's were my Swiss Army Knife purchase to be compact enough to do small gigs and with enough bass response that I could leave backline at home and have all the band using in ears for the gigs we do. The few times we play to more than 1-200 people we have always had a hired PA . Everyone is different but for our covers band, pub gigs with the occasional function 15" tops covers everything and lets us have a fully mixed sound without having to drag subs around and carry them into tiny spaces in 200 year old boozers. The really good tops worked out cheaper than small tops and subs so that was a bonus. I've never used the 15's as a bass speaker though they sound good with bass at home (you have to try them ) I also have a couple of RCF 310's and i have used them for bass, either as floor monitors or for small gigs just one as my bass 'rig'. They work fine but the problem is the floor reinforcement. On poles the bass sounds great but the extra bass reflected on the floor makes them very boomy and you have to roll the bass right off. I'd expect the same problem with the 15's as bass speakers but hey ho, you do have tone controls. We are moving using in-ears however and hope to lose the backline soon.

Without measuring gear I'd do the balancing of tops and subs with recorded music you know well. If you have good quality headphones then it's not a bad idea to compare the sound through the speakers with the headphone sound. you want your PA to be as flat as possible and then make choices about how the instruments balance. If your bass steps up or down at the crossover then it's going to give you a shelf in response. Thats going to make any instrument with a lot of bass content sound odd and mean applying conventional eq won't easily sort out the issues.

@LukeFRC you are a hero. im so pleased you got there with this project @glambass

True, in the development we listened to a lot of female vocals to check the midrange was honest. Sade did sound good. As did Dolores Keane

Would you need two? I've never taken two along to a gig and never needed to. The Faital 320 is a really nice driver, there are a few high end speakers using the Faital 300 and one or two using the 320. It has a really good excursion capability as well as a well-controlled frequency response. It can handle a lot of bass. On top of this the BC Mk3 uses a much higher quality Celestion horn driver than almost all other bass cabs and a sophisticated crossover so the mids are smoother, accuracy where you need it and no tizz. This is a top of the range cab There are a few issues with stacking any 2 way bass cab. This one has been designed to cut down beaming caused by interference between widely spaced drivers. As soon as you introduce extra drivers you get interference between them called comb filtering. You can reduce that by getting the horns as close together as possible so vertically You'd have the top cab upside down. Stacked horizontally you'd have the horns vertically aligned. That would reduce the problems but not entirely eliminate them. These cabs have been engineered to help you hear all the frequencies equally well even when close to the cab. To avoid that experience you get live of it being very loud but you still can't hear what you are playing. Comb filtering would remove some of those frequencies so wouldn't help your experience as the bassist. It would of course be louder for the audience. Are you coming to the South West Bass Bash? You can try one of the Mk3's there.

This could be read any number of ways, was this just you without the band playing bass through the PA? If so that would only tell you a little about your PA. It may have been down to room acoustics. An empty hall with no audience can be incredibly reverberant so this may or may not have been a fair test. I sympathise with your frustration though. I know the Mackies and although they are more than matched by modern rivals they aren't bad sounding speakers. You ought to be able to get a pretty good sound out of them. Carlsbro though have a pretty poor reputation and they look like they are in far too small a box to be effective subs. They could be an issue. HPF on a bass at 70Hz is way too high. Another thought is that you haven't said how you set the relative levels on the subs and tops. The temptation is to set them to give a good thump rather than match the output. The idea is not that the bass is louder than the tops without subs but that it is at the same level but with the lower frequencies extended downwards in frequency and power handling of the whole system increased. At the crossover point the tops and subs should be at the same volume. Unless you have measuring equipment try playing a recording you know well through the PA and adjust the levels to make the bass sound as natural as possible at low/medium volumes. If you can't reproduce recorded music well then you are only going to find it difficult to impossible to create a good sound from the band. Moving on to a possible speaker upgrade. Until recently we used QSC K12-2's for our PA. In typical pubs I could run bass through them at high enough levels to work well. These were providing all of the FOH sound but I had a little Hartke as an on-stage monitor. Since then our singer left and took her QSC's with her so I've recently bought a couple of RCF 745's They'll do most of our gigs including kick and bass at high volumes without needing subs or backline. I have subs but I've only taken them out once in three years. You just don't need them for the average British pub gig. I'm not sure that answers your basic question, whether you need to buy new PA speakers. I think that is probably up to you but you ought to be able to get at least a reasonable sound out of what you have. If you decide to upgrade then I'd probably spend on some really capable tops and only add the subs if experience says you are struggling at more than one of your venues.

We use a similar setup but with RCF310's for my duo. The bass sound I get out of the speakers on the poles is the best I've had playing live. The problem is that the speakers are designed to be on poles and the monitors on the floor have so much bass they are difficult to use as it drowns out the vocals. that is now solved by eq in the new mixer but the old passive mixer wouldn't allow different eq for the aux out. Thats with a duo however and a recorded drum track. I doubt you'd be quite there with a couple of 10's for FOH if you have anything but a very restrained drummer.