Phil Starr
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New band, poor singer. Advice, please...
Phil Starr replied to solo4652's topic in General Discussion
Love it TBH I'd have a long hard think. I spent a while 'between bands' after failing to take the Floyd's advice. I spent too long with people who either weren't really musicians and others who were great but were never going to manage to be in any group, musical or otherwise. To be fair i met a lot of lovely people as well. No 1 is are they a group you can get on with? It's so stressful if you don't and a little love and respect makes it so much easier. Can you forgive a singer who misses the odd note or the drummer whose timing is a bit suspect? Only you can decide how far to go down that route. Which of your friends are perfect? Having said that a poor singer is about the worst position to be weak in for a band. Would you turn down Bob Dylan or Coldplay though, or any of the various girl bands. People with marginal voices can be a great stage presence and really work a room so they get away with vocal murder. Just one thought, several female singers i've been with are people pleasers who get talked into singing unsuitable material in the original keys. Frequently their voices are weaker than male singers and they struggle when the band is too loud. Current band are like this with our shed building drummer. Our singer sounds lovely with her other band but struggles with ours and struggling for volume affects her pitch. how about monitoring, does she use in-ears or floor monitors or even nothing? you cant pich what you can't hear. You won't change this band, if they aren't nice people now the won't become kinder or more generous, if they aren't aware of the problem now they won't thank you for pointing it out and you'll be starting with tensions. So much vocal work is about confidence so telling someone they are flat is unlikely to do any good. If it's any help I've walked away from a prospective band because of this issue. Being in a band is all about compromise but you've got to have a bit of pride in what you do. If everything else is right then it might be what you compromise on, if not I'd walk away. Being in a busy band is hard work, you've got to look forward to being with them. -
Thanks so much for this, I've been using my B1ON for headphone practice forever but have only just started to use it live. For practice it is great for making a cheap bass sound like a decent one but for live work i like a fairly clean sound so it's been an unnecessary distraction, to date. Over lockdown I've been starting recording and adding fx after recording a clean bass. It's been a revelation which is making me question my decision to play clean. I'm absolutely going to investigate the AC BS PRE and add it to the bit of compression and dirt I'm using now. I was thinking to buy the B1 Four as an upgrade, now I don't need to. i'll stick with the B1ON for another year or so and learn what it does, then re-examine.
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Hi Serge, Stevie is shy about this but I'm not as I have no financial interest. I also know how difficult it is to source inductors of the right values and power handling. He sells inductors on Evil Bay including winding custom values. I hope I'm not breaking any BassChat rules by putting this up but here is the link 133768834024 | eBay that's for the 10" driver but all the other inductors are available.
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Stevie is the expert on crossovers but at the simplest level speakers are all different, none of them have completely flat responses and the mechanical and electrical characteristics of each speaker are different too. Adding a horn flare loads the speakers changing the load on the speaker and this changes thigs too. The horn will also have it's own frequency response. Even at the easiest level most horns are louder than bass units but never by the same amounts, so you have to sort that out too. I've used generic crossover designs and used simple design theory to calculate crossover component values. It works in that you split the signal between the drivers bass goes through the bass speaker and treble through the horn but it is only a starting point. the sound in the crossover region is rarely good. I then (theoretically anyway) do a lot of fiddling, unwinding coils or adding turns and messing with resistor and capacitor values with repeated listening tests to get it as clean as I can subjectively. Stevie does it by measurement and years of experience and his crossovers sound better than mine.
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Just working from the sequence of events it looks like the speakon socket or lead was the source of the problem. It will probably be directly wired to the jack which may be why that has stopped working. If you are really unlucky it could have caused other damage. If the previous owner used jacks only the socket may have been unused for years, it may have been faulty from new or time may have taken a toll. If you are lucky it may be as simple as replacing the socket or even resoldering a wire. The thing you want to avoid is running a valve amp open circuit so get it to the tech tell them what you told us and with any luck it can be sorted. Hope it goes well.
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I always have been in theory, it's about getting the practice right. I was a sound engineer a lot longer than I've been a bass player so my grasp of theory is good but I've been out of the loop for a long time so your advice on what the state of the art is now has been invaluable. it's been really interesting crossing over from behind the mixing desk to the stage, your personal priorities are completely different and of course you start any new area at the bottom of the feeding pool. There were lots of poorly paid gigs and getting the right set up together takes time. It takes a while for us weekend warriors to get to the point where we can afford our own engineer. I'm also lucky enough that the current band are interested in improving technically. Sound, like politics proves to be the art of the possible. On the monitors/mics and feedback issue fortunately I'm fairly loud so I can keep the gain down but at open mics when I'm mixing inexperienced singers replacing lesser monitors with the RCF's has given me a few more dB to play with. They are so reasonably priced too.
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To be fair we haven't had any problems at all in that area since I went over to using RCF ART310's for floor monitors. It'll be great to lose what they put into the vocal mics when we do go in-ears but they really are well behaved in terms of frequency response.
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I'm going for the RCF M18 mixer, I downloaded the control software and tried it and it is way slicker than the Behringer, if I have to operate it myself at smaller gigs that is really important to me. If I'm playing bass then buttons and bells on the mixer aren't going to be used, the most I'll do is tweaking the balance . I'll settle for a couple of saved scenes with some eq and a graphic for a bit of room compensation. The M18 gives me 6 auxes and there are only four in the band, and two in my duo (no s**t Sherlock) It's cheap enough that I can still consider the X18 if I need it. The sound engineer turned up with an X32 so all looks good for bigger gigs too.
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You won't get the figure of eight brace through a 12"cutout. I've used strips of ply in the past to do this but use what you have. I'd use the SM212 if you can get hold of one and are happy to pay the extra. Everything was designed around it and it is a better speaker than the 12CMV.
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It goes further than this. My guitarist is now a convert to lightweight cabs. I've designed him a cab based on the 30l cab. It's fitted with a Celestion G12H variant built for a Marshall. He's using it in the prototype for this cab as an upgrade for his open back Marshall. He loves the extra punch he can get, the ability to shape the bottom end by using the cab as ported or sealed and the portability. It sounds fabulous at rehearsal.
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If you want an SM 212you'll have to find a used one, they stopped making them. The good news is that you can use a Beyma 12CMV2 and they are cheaper. You should be able to copy the bracing of the Basschat design by cutting strips and glueing them in place. Fiddly but achievable.
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I think you might be getting some technically correct answers to a practical question. If you want to bodge some sort of tweeter to see if you like the sound there are a number of ways you could successfully do that, but it will be a bodge. The Mark Bass is a bodge after all and it works in the sense that lots of people quite like it and it doesn't blow amps. Would a better crossover with a few weeks design work and a few pounds worth of components wok better, yes it probably would. I think you have a few options which would 'work' in the sense of giving you a bit of extra tops wthout blowing anything. use a piezo tweeter, cheap and easy but they will always sound like a piezo. use the MB single capacitor circuit as used in hundreds of commercial designs. There's not a lot of protection for the tweeter and all sorts of problms around the crossover point but half the bassists in the world are probably living with this sort of sub optimal 'design'. use @stevie design. It'll look after the tweeter and if you are lucky work ok with your speaker. buy a commercial 2way crossover. it won't exactly match your speakers but you avoid some of the problems of interference around the crossover area. You'll probably need to pad down the signal to the horn so this is only an option if you can work out how to do that. I'd go for using Stevie's easy build design
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Better news yet. My duo partner has just bought new ZS10's and they are smaller than mine and also crucially the angles of the outlet tube are more acute and align neatly with my ear canals, the fit is great so now I'm going for a new set
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Our singer already uses in-ears and our guitarist is keen to move over to using them. In fact he ordered some ZS10's on the spot. Drummer is happy to wear them too, though he prefers over-ears. I might take my AKG's along to next rehearsal for him to try. Having someone invested in getting the monitoring right is an interesting experience. Even being able to mix your own monitoring with a phone app would come second I suspect to being handed a reasonable mix and tweaking it. Even at rehearsal tweaking a mix whilst playing bass, singing and paying attention to the rest of the band is impossible and as I've found out at open mic nights leaving most musicians at the simplest desk shows that mixing is a skill to be learned like any other.
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@EBS_freak this might give you a wry smile. We've now got a sound engineer (which I've always been wanting) and just had a session to get things set up for when we get back gigging. Tried the ZS10's properly for the first time along with my Trantec wireless system, real revelation when you have time to set up the mix into the earphones. Our tech set them up at the desk with his own in-ears then passed me the Trantec to plug mine into with a rough mix already set. A few tweaks and we were off and easily the best experience so far. They still lack mids a little so my vocals could have been better but everything else was all there. If I get that sound consistently ( and I cant see why not) I can live with them for a few months and then maybe look at an upgrade if I know I'm going to stick there. The remains of my hearing thanks you.
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Using the larger inductor will lower the crossover point but hang fire until @stevie gets back to you, he designed the crossover. Don't worry about the amp we should have changed the drawing and I didn't double check. 2.83V is the voltage we use to check speaker parameters, it represents a standard 1W into 8 ohms.The mipedance of speakers vary so we use a standard voltage rather than a wattage figure. The cab will handle around 200W depending upon the exact usage. You can try carpet but obviously we haven't tried it and carpets vary a lot. you might be able to pick up some offcuts of felt carpet underlay for very little or nothing from a carpet warehouse, worth asking anyway. Yes the speaker gets the full range signal and the 'crossover' is actually a high pass filter which rolls off the bass to the horn driver, as well as attenuating the signal. I Imagine you'll have an answer on the crossover before you are ready to fit the speakers.
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It's really exciting starting a build, hope it goes well.
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Hi J, funnily enough I spoke to @stevie yesterday and we were just saying we were surprised no-one has built this yet, as designed. I have the prototype here (in bits at the moment) and I'm going to finish it off properly: better paint job, cabinet lining, a quick check to see where extra bracing would help and a grille fitted. Once that is done I'm going to use the cab and put up a review, hopefully with some sound clips. I'll probably try it with and without the tweeter but the horn is going to add a lot. It's the clever bit of the design. Can you confirm the crossover and tweeter are optional? yes but it will sound a lot better with the tweeter which is higher quality than most commercial units The 1 x 12" cab seems very similar, would this one be more suitable for home use / practice? It's the same cab. That cab is designed for gigging though and the maximum volume is higher as well as the response being highly coloured to fit in with the mix. The 110T is much more honest, loud enough for most gigs but ideal for home use and rehearsals. If you screw the baffle on with some draughtproof foam strips as I do you can always swap speakers later. What would I need to drive this, I don't have any kind of amplifier, is there cheapo option? Harley Benton do the Block -300B, would that do it? It would be great but remember Thomann are currently offering prices without import duties/VAT so that isn't the price you would pay. There are cheaper options like the TC BAM and the Warwick Gnome Bass Amp Heads - Andertons Music Co. Carpentry question : do you predrill holes before screwing, I always tend to do this with other stuff as it tends to stop the wood splintering / cracking. It kind of looked like in the video Phil Starr had pre-drilled because of the way he inserted the screws but wanted to check Yes I pre drilled. Not least because I knew I was doing a live demo I'm a bit unclear on whether its a good idea to put wool or other padding inside the enclosure. Yes we'd recommend carpet felt at least on the rear panel, better on three panels and better still a lined cab.
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Are your music tastes eclectic or quite narrow?
Phil Starr replied to Barking Spiders's topic in General Discussion
Coincidentally I had a moment with my daughter yesterday (who really does have eclectic tastes) over Wichita Lineman. It came up on a playlist and we both discovered a soft spot for that song. Funny how some songs just touch a nerve. 3.05 of shared musical pleasure, it all counts. -
Speaker experts - ceramic equivalent of Eminence 3015/Faital 15PR400?
Phil Starr replied to Bigwan's topic in Amps and Cabs
I assume this is the cab in this thread? So I bought a heap... - Amps and Cabs - Basschat Have you addressed the issues you mentioned there, fixed the leaks and checked the glue on the old Peaveys? Without fixing the leaks and other issues replacing the speakers won't solve the problems. It was quite common for 2x15's to use speakers not initially designed for bass, Peavey used the 1501Black Widow in their own 2x15. It has the metal dome and was designed for guitar but sounded great for bass. Excursion was terrible by todays standards 1.6mm from memory but the cab was more than loud enough. If this is sitting in a rehearsal room I'd fix everything i could and just stop worrying, if it blows then you are no worse off and you can replace the speakers then. If not then the Beyma's recommended in the previous thread are still probably your best value for money replacements. Avoid anything with LF in the designation like that Fane. They are designed to be the LF part of a 2-way speaker system with a horn and will sound very dull in a 2x15. -
What impedance of cabs required for Bugera BV1001M head?
Phil Starr replied to Bassmurf's topic in Amps and Cabs
Yes, two eights make 4ohms which will be perfect. Enjoy your new amp and let us know how it all sounds. -
Glad we are back on track. I've always played without any fx, just the sound of the bass. Not because it's a religion but because my bass playing is fairly basic and I was always running the PA. I didn't need any extra distractions on stage. When I've had compressors built into amps I've tried them and ended up switching them out. I've always found they've done very little or they completely crushed the dynamics of playing. I've always assumed fx would add a little to my sound but without being able to hear what the audience hear out front the combination of factors has put me off starting to climb the learning curve. Lockdown has changed that. I've been playing music with a mate on Soundtrap. It's a kind of very simple online DAW I guess. Crucially it records everything clean and you can add fx later. That's let me try the effects of a couple of the compression fx they provide and instantly hear what they do in the mix. It makes a difference, quite a big one and it makes things better. I've never been bothered by my on stage sound, I can always hear the bass, hearing what the rest of the band are up to is more of a problem. I came to bass late after mixing live for years and I have a healthy disrespect for musicians who put 'their' sound in front of the band's sound. So I'm following this with interest, I know what I want to achieve and some sort of compression is the way to do it Come on guys go nerdy on me. I want to know what changing the attack and release times really does to the sound. What ratios are best for metal, can I set things so dynamics are secured but presence is increased and yes, where should compression go in the chain?
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Sorry Dan, I missed that you were recommending keeping the 4x7. There's no technical reason why that shouldn't be able to keep up with a 12 and I've been toying myself with the idea of a 4x8.
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Hi Dan, I tried to find out the sensitivity of the 2x7 but if it is available I couldn't find it. Just on surface area two 7's are smaller than a 12. ( the surface area is proportional to the square of the radius after all) The frequency figures Phil Jones gives for the 2x7 indicate that they are tuned more for low frequency response than sensitivity, basically they either give the response he states and they won't be super-efficient or they don't have that response. From what I've heard of the 5's he tends to design for good sound rather than volume. The online reviews of them seem to concentrate on recommendations from jazz players rather than for rock. I've no experience of the 2x7 but I'd be surprised if they push the envelope of what is possible by much. Without some figures I am just surmising and if we can get some numbers, I'm happy to be corrected. Of course the OP has something saleable and he could sell any time, so waiting until he does have a band makes sense. If he needs more 'oomf' at the time he could do the swap then. Of course this is just physics, we haven't mentioned how they sound. I think that's more important, especially if he has to live with said speaker for a while before he joins a band. I just wanted to answer the question 'how much is enough?'.
