Phil Starr

Technically if you want to keep the Darkglass sound without extra colouring you need an FRFR speaker. I'm not surprised the Headrush doesn't do it for bass: the same rules apply to PA speakers used for bass as apply to bass speakers as a whole. Most people aren't going to find a single 10" speaker 'enough' for every eventuality and you need a good quality 12 or something bigger ideally. For bass quality means a long voice coil to give you good excursion without distorting, high power handling and good control over cone movement at low frequencies. This means the bass driver will be correspondingly expensive and you won't get that in a speaker the price of the Headrush, though they are good value to be fair. At your price range you need to go for something like a used Yamaha, RCF or QSC 12" speaker to get that quality.

Have I got Snugs and Lugs the wrong way round

If weight alone is your issue it's hard to look past the Barefaced cabs and I do like the sound of the SC. However I've also owned an LFSys Monaco which is only a little heavier and it is a better sounding cab IMO. Nowadays I put bass through the PA and so my bass amp is only ever used for monitoring so I downsized to the 10" Monza. It's loud enough to match any drummer at rehearsal. Both are a lot lighter than the 20kg of your Bergs, better sounding than the BF cabs and come with a considerable cost saving.

I think you are going to struggle with that too. Snugs used to offer this service but have now stopped everything but custom tips. I was looking to get my IEM's remounted but this service ended during Covid. I think Lugs, based in Devon, do a fully enclosed casing but I can't imagine you will get a turn around in tht sort of timescale. How long have you had the custom tips? I'm getting very little of anything through my universal IEM's fitted with triple flange tips so I'd expect better from custom moulds. Ears change shape over time so it may be time for new moulds

In my case 'flat' meant measured flat. We'd use RTA which is what you are describing to set everything objectively flat. You can only do that by measuring and a lot of digital desks have that built in. If not you can do it with a reference mic and a laptop or one of the DBX/Behringer type equalisers. Without getting into semantics or the real practical issues of achieving a flat response from speakers flat is not really a subjective thing, it's a matter of measuring. It's easy to get carried away with tests like this and to take them too seriously but I'm a science teacher and I do try and control the variables and to give people all the information about variables I haven't controlled. In this case the speakers weren't all at the same height and were places next to each other so not all coming form the same position. As I've already said the sub with the 10's wasn't properly adjusted and was too loud compared with the tops. John @Chienmortbb has pointed out that the RCF745's were louder on the midrange at least. We did try to measure the sound levels initially but the room was filling up and we didn't use test tones so that was of marginal utility. One variable I completely let slip was a spectacular pratt-fall. I used a trolley to wheel the subs in and then lifted the 43kg subs onto the stage. In doing so I stepped back onto the trolley which shot away behind me and I fell and dropped the 43kg sub from shoulkder height onto my arm and shoulder. I have some spectacular bruises I think @scrumpymike was the only witness or I'd be a Tik Tok sensation 😂 It did mean I was a bit slow setting up. So controls at 12.00 is a fair test in one sense but leaves some of the room variables in. I also tried, and was only partially successful in getting the volume levels equal. it gave people the chance to listen for differences in the way each system presented bass,drums vocals and so on. Some of the differences though were due to the room, which we could have controlled better with more time and proper measuring gear. More careful positioning or the subs would have helped, from my position on the stage there was a lot of boom which must have been audible FOH In the end you can't take the conclusions too far but the people there will have a little bit more information to go on when buying PA. Even on the video differences weere obvious. All three systems would have been perfectly adequate for a band performing in what was a very decent sized village hall and all had advantages and shortcomings

@Woodinblack@Chienmortbband @scrumpymike will all know we've been talking about doing this for a while but life and music gets in the way of finding time and a place to do this properly. Taking them to the bass bash was a compromise from the start but I hope it was useful. I was also very aware from on-stage that this was also meant to be entertaining for a group of people more interested in bass than PA. I didn't want to lose the audience so I had to keep it reasonably short. Personally I could have happily spent all day on the PA with all the kit we had there. Obviously setting everything flat on the eq was 'fair' but I had a full 1/3octave graphic available and it would have been more 'real life to have used it to tune each system to the room. I'd like to have been able to get the best out of each system. It would have been great to compare the systems at full volume and I had other speakers there which didn't make the shoot out.

Thanks Michael, just to say that if anyone there goes across to the PA shootout and can add any of their comments (on the speakers) I'd really appreciate it

I was thinking that the random bass playing from the hall was louder than I was for some of the time

I first came across her on an album called 'A Woman's Heart' a compilation of female Irish singers. The recordings of just about all of them are fabulous. Also worth checking out is Dolores Keane. First Bouree by Jethro Tull and now Pentangle, we must share a record colection

FWIW I set out to answer some specific questions: Could you run a PA with just a couple of fairly modest 10" tops if you also used a sub? How would that compare with a similar priced set up with 15" tops? How capable are the mid priced line source PA set ups and are these a viable option for a band PA. We've been arguing this one for a while in various threads so the opportunity to put this to the test was too good to miss. @Woodinblack and I have been talking about doing the comparison for a while and maybe inviting a select few to try things out too. The bass bash seemed a good way of doing this and letting more people make their own minds up. So my take was that I'd happily take any of these out as my bands PA. None of them sounded anything other than good and that is what you should expect. A PA shouldn't really have a sound. If I'd had more time (90 mins to set up three PA's before people came in) it would have been good to eq each PA to the room, specifically the bass from the bins which were too loud from the 10+sub and I think I could have lost the boom from the Evox too. I also had some budget Wharfedale Titans there which I think would have surprised people and would have liked to have tried the 10's without the subs. I've gigged with the ART 310's and a sub they can sound really impressive set, up properly. I don't think many people in an audience would notice but the midrange capability of the ART745's did shine through when comparing A/B but at a £500 premium over the 10+sub system and £800 over the Evox. I think the Evox is there in terms of usability, after the first round it was probably the preferred system for the acoustic music from the comments I got on the day. That answers my initial questions and the conclusion I draw from this is that different systems are appropriate for each band. If no-one can lift 15"tops onto a stand then they are immediately out of the running for a band. Using 10's and a sub make more sense and you'll get some really solid bass. For the cost of the 745's you could easily buy something like the NX10's and an ART705 (and you don't need to stick to RCF) which would out perform the speakers I had on the day. The Evox were the easiest to set up and move around, probably safer in a crowded venue and sounded good. These are all good options and you need to think practicality as well as sound.

If you want to skip to the important bits: First song is Western Highway by Maura O'Connell RCF ART310's +905 sub 2.20 RCF ART 745's 4.20 RCF Evox 8's 6.55 Second song is Blowing Free by Wishbone Ash RCF ART310's +905 sub 10.25 RCF ART 745's 12.12 RCF Evox 8's 13.45

I'll come back and do a more detailed summary later but the order is the same for both sets. RCF ART 310's with RCF ART 905 subs RCF ART 745's RCF Evox 8's There is no reason for them all being RCF other than that is what we had to hand. The idea for doing this came from the discussion in this forum about what size speakers would be minimum for a band PA, whether the column speakers would be enough and the advantage of a big speaker versus small speakers and subs. The cost new ranges from £2380 for the 745's to £1554 for the Evox system so none of this was really 'budget' but not too far removed from the average gigging pub band. There is no eq on the systems and I didn't get the chance to accurately set up the sub for the ART 310, it was done by ear and ideally it should have been measured and I'd have lked to use RTA to adjust for room acoustics. The subs were resonating the wooden stage. Recording was done with a Zoom camera. The volume was reasonably loud but a few db down on gig volumes and the recordings I used were from WAV files from CD's copied on to a memory stick. Sadly I couldn't really hear much myself that would be of any use as I was stuck behind the speakers for most of the demonstration. I hope those who could hear will give their thoughts. It says something about bassists that I noticed that 80% of the room were beating time during the demo

Thanks John, though I don't think anyone wants to live through that again I think we need a bass filter though, the bass is definitely too far forward in the mix 🤣🎵😂

A hit tune is always great art: "it speaks to the souls of a million strangers" Not my words but the words of his Jazz tutor Ted Dunbar to a young Nile Rogers. Nile was complaining about having to play Sugar, Sugar by the Archies in his covers band, the rest is history. Without that advice he might have gone on to be an obscure jazz guitarist playing to six people admiring chord sequences in downtown bars and unknown to the world. I can't tell you how many wonderful nights I've had dancing to Chic or indeed Mustang Sally as a teenager or how many rooms full of people joyfully singing "ride sally ride" I've played to. It may not be music you listen to often but there is often something joyous about music touching the souls of millions. If you are a covers band you aren't creating art you are copting it and hoping to give people a good night out basking in the glory of other people's creativity. You don't have to play any particular song or style of music to do this but are you really so good you can look down on people who do. Anyway Tommy Cogbill is one of my favourite bassists

Should I leave you in peace now 😂🤣🥰

Sorry I wasn't really answering your basic question but the aside you added. This was the bit I was responding to. If you went for the RCF910's plus a sub then losing out on the 3" tweeter would be a shame, but is less of an issue with a small bass driver as you would probably crossover a bit higher anyway. Im sure the difference would be there but the 910 would potentially sound a little better in the vocal range than the 912. In all I think you know what you want, the vocal sound of the ART732 and the bass sound of the ART912, all you have to do is decide whether it is worth the cost of the upgrade. Having lived with both your PA speaker and the singers you know what you'll be getting. You might not need a sub, prior to my buying my ART745's we used our singers QSC 12.2's and I never felt the need for more bass I've no reason to believe the 932 wouldn't be at least as good. If you do eventually want to add a sub it is because you'll be playing more and/or bigger gigs so it won't be a difficult choice when you reach it. Adding a sub by the way won't improve your bass sound you don't want the lower frequencies in your bass tone as it will just add more mud. It will improve your kick and floor toms so you will be adding a sub to improve the drums not the bass. If you do a sub well then it shouldn't add more bass in the sense of it being louder. It should just add in a little bit of the frequencies your tops won't reach and tighten up your bass sound adding a little extra headroom. I find them difficult things to get right when setting up in a strange room with less than an hour for set up and soundchecking. In the right hands they can add to your sound but it's more often not done well with the subs too loud being the usual issue. Spending the money on a digital desk is going to add much more to your sound than a sub when your speakers are already so capable IMO

Your audience was more in tune than ours ever is @Jack You are shamelessly entertaining them too We've gone the 745 route with the band but they are huge in smaller venues and completely over the top for most of what we do. There's no point in 15's if you know you are going to be using a subThe only real gain is below 50Hz and if you are crossing over to the sub at 100Hz or over that's all just wasted speaker area. I must admit I'm looking at the 910's for our duo if some decent ones come up used and I have a 905 sub as well as a couple of Wharfedale 15" subs. It'd be interesting to gig with a couple of 910's with a sub. @Al Krow you need to worry a little less about a lower crossover with a smaller bass/mid driver. A 15" cone won't go as high before problems kick in as a 10" bass/mid so the 'gap' is smaller and you can crossover a bit higher. I'm really pretty happy with the vocals from my ART310's and the 910 uses a slightly bigger 1.75" compression unit so I'd expect a small improvement over the 310 as well as a bit of extra headroom and a tighter bass. The power alleys are really quite dramatic if you are in an open air venue, in a rectangular room you have so many muitiple pathways to any given part of the auditorium that the alleys become much less noticeable and much more complex. I've been saying for a while that IME come filtering in enclosed spaces not as dramatic as people are making out and in practical terms less worrying than having 30kg tops on 2m high poles close to intoxicated dancers. I'm hoping to demonstrate this at the SW Bass Bash in a couple of weeks time if I can get all three subs in my VW estate. Without the intoxicated dancers of course

Me too, I have a bass amp for possible dep gigs and the odd rehearsal but it stays at home nowadays

I think that £600 is a lot of money and better spent elsewhere. It'd go a long way towards a digital mixer or would buy a decent light show for the band so unless funds really aren't an issue I'd be taking a broader view. If it helps I'd probably now buy the 932's over the 745's which I love. The 745's have given me a great sound and have coped with everythingI've done since I bought them including outdoor gigs without needing subs which I have 'just in case'. Our sound is limited more by the lack of a FOH engineer much more than the gear we are using and the 932's would take up less space to store/transport and probably give me very similar performance to the 745's. The 932's weren't an option back when I bought and the 745's are just too big to be ideal. I don't often give categoric advice but I think we know each other well enough? Buy the ART 932's sell the 912's and you'll be happily gigging them for years, I think you already know they are a good match to your needs. I doubt you'll ever need a sub but you can add that if it becomes a burning need. I'm increasingly taking a financial and practical view of PA. My band are going out for £320-350 split four ways. My duo for £180-200 and are getting more bookings. We sound great in the sense of good clear sound and a decent mix, not so sure of the backing vocals If I invest it will be on the basis of how many gigs we are doing and at the moment the duo are earning more so i can 'afford' to spend more there. The reality is that the sound isn't an issue any more but convenience could be. If either of the bands really takes off I'll invest in whatever makes us a better act. I've never made a loss on buying used gear and never more than 25% on new gear so though it ties up capital it effectively costs nothing and brings in more gigs. Not many hobbies do that

Sub optimal really. If you use a crossover then you are simply using the same drive unit to do the same thing instead of the one on the pole, although the floor would potentially enhance the bass a bit. Without the crossover you potentially could be sharing the load but your mid/treble would be coming from two sources well spaced apart with multiple path lengths to the audience creating phase distortions/comb filtering. If you just passed the bass to the bottom speaker you wopuld have a bass boost over the horns output and would have to re-eq cutting back to where you were. You could potentially fly a pair of PA speakers in a line array, vertically aligned which would give you 6db more sound and an altered radiation pattern, though ideally you'd rotate the horns to keep their radiation wider than they are high.

Yes, I can't be totally certain that RCF will have made no modifications to either driver but essentially you are getting the better bass driver with the better horn driver. The rest of the system amp, crossover and the cab itself will all be different but one reason for the current success of RCF designs is the care with which they marry their components. I'd expect it to deliver just what you want. It's probably fair to compare this with how they design modern cars. A particular manufacturer will try and use the same engine across a whole range of models suitably modifying things to optiise them for each body shape. Somwhere in the range you'll find a model with your favoured engine with the format you prefer at the trim level you want. Incidentally you could also consider the RCF NX 932, essentially the same speaker but in a wooden box. I have never heard the two speakers but generally speaking when I've done listening tests with plastic PA cabs and elecctric bass there is a noticeable difference between wooden and plastic cabs with the more rigid wooden cabs sounding a lot better defined due to their increased rigidity. I'd expect this to be true for the NX series too. £819 plays £1179 though and the wooden cab is around 1.5kg heavier.

As far as i can tell RCF only make one 3" and one 4" driver https://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=RCFND950_2_0 so I'm guessing that they use the same 3 or 4 in all their ART cabs and I think in some/most of the NX range. To understand why it's important you need to know a bit about our biology. The most important sounds to us are in the midrange, say 500-5,000 hz our ears are incredibly sensitive in that region and most of the information we need to survive is there including most human speech. Most animals alarm calls are there too. The bass is turned down in our hearing otherwise we'd walk around listening to ou bones creaking and other bodily noises and actually only really loud bass notes would signify danger in more primitive times. The bass is turned up for the loudest noises. So if we hear the mids better and it's 90% of what we process as music then your PA has to be good at mids. Unfortunately due to the physics of speakers big cones don't do mids well. they are heavy old things that don't move back and forth thousands of times a second very easily. Also the radiation pattern is related to the wavelength of the sound and big speakers beam high frequencies so you need a small speaker for high frequencies and a big speaker for bass. This means a crossover and at least two speakers, three might be better but that is extra cost, weight and a technical problem; crossovers introduce distortion! For practical reasons most 2-way PA speakers crossover between 2-3,000Hz just about where our hearing is most sensitive. That's partly because it evenly splits the sound but also because of power handling. Bass contains more energy or watts and more watts will burn out small voice coils. It's difficult to make the voice coil bigger than the cone or dome of a speaker. A typical 1x12 PA speaker will have a 1.5-1.75" diameter voice coil handling only around 35W of power. The 4" driver in the most expensive RCF speakers allows 140W of power handling and the crossover point to be reduced below 1,000Hz cleaning up a whole octave or more of the midrange frequencies. All speaker design is a compromise and not just of expense. At a given price point you can concentrate on a better bass driver or a better horn driver. The 912 favours bass and the 732 the midrange or vocals. It helps to know what you are paying for and designing a big tweeter is difficult if you are not to lose some of the real high end. That 4" horn driver is extraordinarily expensive big and heavy for a reason.

First number is the series number and is basically about the bass driver and the cab. They used to have a 'basic' range the 3-series a couple of years ago. The 7 series at each size level had better bass drivers and slightly more rigid cabs. Then they introduced the 9 series which uses better bass drivers again. Second number signifies the size of the compression unit, the speaker that drives the horn. The 1 in the ART 712 for example means that the horn has a 1" throat though confusingly the horn driver might be 1.5" or 1.75 depending upon the size of the bass driver it is matched to. They also do a 3" and 4" horn driver. Having a bigger voice coil increases the heat dissipation of the driver and this in turn increases power handling. Crucially though it allows a lower crossover frequency so more of the voice goes through the horn which improves dispersion and the accuracy of the vocal reproduction in particular. The final Number as everyone has said is the size of the bass driver. I only know all this because I auditioned a few speakers when I first upgraded my old passive Yamaha PA and at each price point I found the best speaker in terms of accurate reproduction was the RCF. At teh time the range was really confusing with a 4 series the HD range and other odd speakers so I wanted to research exactly what I was buying. RCF started out just making drive units (they made the drive units for the original Mackie SRM450's for example) and if you go across to Blue Aran you can see the specs of the bare drive units. The 4" horn drive costs £320 (more than the bass driver) and handles 140W for example which kind of explains why the cabs cost what they do. There are also some helpful You Tube video's by one of the US dealers where they pull the latest RCF speakers apart so you can see what RCF put inside the boxes.

There's loads of them on Facebook Marketplace, I picked up my 745's from there and also a 905 sub eBay has changed it's terms so you can sell for free too. I think that will shake up the second hand market.

Across the RCF ART range the first number indicates better bass drivers and bigger magnets as well as slightly better cabs. The bigger magnets give better damping of the cone movement and a tighter bass sound as well as slightly improved excursion and sensitivity. The nice thing is that re-sale values for quality used active speakers are really good at the moment in the UK so you can usually get most of your money back when you upgrade.