Phil Starr

The RCF NXL 24-A MK2 do sound nice, the hire firm I bought my unused RCF 745's from (unused because of Covid) had decided to upgrade and was comparing the 9 series with the RCF NXL 24-A MK2 and had a rep from RCF there when I arrived, so I got the unexpected chance to audition them. They sounded so much better than anything else there that I almost rejected the 745's. Only double the price though. Spot on though about the mini arrays, they are fine and offer advantages and disadvantages but the downside is lack of efficiency meaning you need a lot of mid/top drivers to match a point source for volume and that pushes the price higher. My band don't sound good enough for more revealing speakers

I loved the sound or those old Mackie's one local band was still using them last time I saw them and they sounded absolutely great. Mind you the sound of any band is down to who is using it as much as the kit itself. One of the ideas I'm playing with after a post by @zitherman is a column speaker. He was considering building something into a set for his band that looked old school (perhaps over simplifying but you get the idea) I contemplated and modelled a 4x6 and a 4x8 using a high sensitivity BMS compression driver for the horn. The sound pressure levels for the 4x8 in particular were extraordinary. 10db more than my RCF 745's. The bass response was usable too but crossed over from a sub @120Hz you'd have a terrific system and with good control of dispersion. The 4x6 would have worked better with a higher crossover but the stick systems like the RCF Evox do this routinely. I'm committed now to completing the design of the BC 8" ultra portable bass speaker though and my own PA is active and works well so I'm not really looking to go back to passives for my own use. The 4x8+sub remains a thought experiment.

Is it time to bite the bullet and go for a digital mixer? If light weight, and I'm guessing portability is the issue tou could dispense with the rack altogether. Compressor and graphic would be built in and with 18 channels you could dedicate 6 to the drums and mix them as a subgroup (or make your drummer carry their own sub mixer) You'd have so much more besides with a digital desk. That of course leaves you still needing an amp if you want to stick with passive speakers. Thomann do a four channel class D T-Amp and Behringer do a four channel amp too, there may be others. If not I have my two Peavey IPR's mounted together in a simple wooden sleeve which gives you 4x300/500W in something you can carry one handed, with a single finger if you want. Alternatively you could think about upgrading your speakers. Used PA prices are pretty strong at the moment so you might be able to trade in a complete PA for good money. I know you bought the GR Bass cab so I'm assuming generally light weight is important to you. Ditching the rack and having everything on board with the mixer might be a better long term solution. If not the Crown XLS1502 would be a great amp at 3.9kg The Behringer NX3000 a budget alternative (ignoring Behringer's over inflated power output claims v's the Crown's rms ratings) You might find some of the Crown amps used here as they are a recommendation for people using a pre/power combination for bass.

Goldilocks speakers I suppose 15's are defiinitely too hefty and 10's are too small. !2's are just right. However not all 12's are the same. We used to use QSC 12's and they are decidedly hefty when you hve to lift them onto poles. In this case small v's hefty was just a throwaway comment to mirror @warwickhunt's dilemma. I haven't used heft for a long time though. Will it pass BC's profanity filter However separately a couple of us are asking ourselves what might be achieved by going with designing a 2+1 system with conventional point source tops and sub. It would be a little like one of the 'stick' PA's but with something like an 8" or even 6" based top instead of the stick. Freed up from the need to handle bass you could get quite a lot of sound out of an 8" speaker and we are looking to modify an existing 8 to get higher sensitivity. I've actually played with a 2x8 PA with just vocals and guitar and it's surprisingly capable. The conventional sticks with an array of 3" drivers do struggle for volume so whilst you lose the directional control of a line array you could have the advantage of no heavy lifting by using a really small top and crossing over from a sub. Don't forget my other hobby of designing speakers I'm constantly toying with all sorts of ideas.

Great idea, funnily enough we are looking at the possibility of one down in the West Country. One of the questions we want to resolve is Small speakers with a sub v's a pair of hefty PA tops.

First of all my gut reaction is that I think you'd be better off spending the extra on the mixer rather than speakers at this price level, that's if if cost is an issue. The A&H is going to add so much more for the extra money and more than the difference between what would be two very good speaker systems. 2xQSC 10 + 12" sub = 2xRCF 932's? That looks like a fairly balanced equation to me. Really hard to choose, they'll both be good sounding, equally capable sytems. They'd sound different, but which would be better? That's like asking me to choose my son or daughter if a bit less emotionally charged . The bigger horn drivers in the RCF range give a lovely vocal qualitybut the QSC'c sound good too and you already know how they sound, The two 12's in a pair of 932's will give plenty of bass (moving from the 7 series to the 9 series is mainly about a better bass driver BTW, plus a slightly better cab) but the 12" driver in the sub is a specialist with a bit more excursion so wouldn't be far behind the two bass/mid drivers). As Bill has pointed out putting it on the floor will reinforce the single driver. Could you drag your two QSC's down to PMT in Newcastle and try them with a sub and then have a listen to the RCF's at the same time? I managed to audition a lot of PA stuff at PMT in Bristol when I was buying a few years back and were really helpful ( I went in on a quiet afternoon) Without you listening to them I think it comes down to how you feel about spending £1600 on the 12" tops which probably won't need a 12" sub or £750 on a sub to go with the speakers you already have. Incidentally I bought a pair of RCF 15's, the 745's as a Swiss Army Knife solution, they really work in the sense that they sound great and so far they have been up to everything they've been asked to do but they are so big and over the top for most gigs. Not sure I'd go that big again.

Re-visiting this I think you probably need to tell us your budget and maybe what sort of spec. I'm picturing something that will give a reliable 300W rms into 8ohm per side, 500 into 4? If you want reliable then Crown, Yamaha and QSC all offer bullet proof offerings. At the cheaper end Thomann's own brand the T-Amp look good value and users on BC have given good reviews in the past. I'd also stick with Behringer as a recommendation from my own experience.

I've pretty much tried all the tips in all the sizes with all the main culprit headphones. I've a box at home with maybe 40 pairs of tips that I try with each new in ears. In the end I used some triple flange tips I pulled off some earplugs and thay worked really well for me with the original ZS10's I then bought a box of mixed size triple flange and the small ones fit ted well and still do with the pro's. They go right into my ear canal up to the first bend and sit fairly tight, so much so that I've been to the local small injuries unit for them to pull them out when they get stuck. I now carry tweezers with me to gigs

To lose one W-Audio amp seems a misfortune, to lose two seems like carelessness OK, it's a fair cop, I should have said some cheap power amps can be reliable.

I think we nearly all feel this. The price hike from no in-ears to moulded customs is just so huge for a covers band going out for £300 a night shared 5 ways. £500+ is a year's income from the band once you've paid for fuel and other incidental expenses and a lot to risk if it isn't quite right. On the other hand I've never regretted taking @EBS_freak advice. What to do? So I'm going to take one for the team. I've been in touch with Snugs who make moulds largely for bikers and hunting shooting people. Very West Country They are quite near me and I'm going out there to get my ears scanned. They make custom moulded ear buds for a limited range of headphones but I've been talking to them about making customs for the KZ ZS10 pro's. Also possibly for my Sennheiser IE100's. The deal is that I have to leave the 'phones with them whilst they work on them. I have two ZS10's so that isn't a problem. Crucially this costs £169.95 for a pair of custom buds so potentially giving me ZS10 based IEM's that seal reliably, and don't need pushing back in all the time, for just over £200 rather than the £500+ you'd pay for a fully custom IEM of unknown sound quality. I know Russ is going to tell me I'm potentially wasting even more money and will end up paying for full fat in-ears but I'm curious and happy to take the hit. If it is noticeably better than I have now it might be an affordable move for a lot of people. At the moment I'm getting great sounds out of my ZS10 pro's at the beginning of the set but that deteriorates as the evening goes on and they start slipping loose so just playing the whole set with them sounding their best is well worth £200. So the only question is.... Which earphone should I try? Are people going to shift to ZAR's or the latest iteration of the ZS10's. Once they've made one for me Snugs will offer them to anyone who wants them so it would make sense for them and me to start off with the most popular model. I'm happy to pay out the £50ish cost of buying yet another iteration of the ZS10.

I had a Behringer EP2400 for years (old heavy amp) with no problems and bought an iNuke (class D) off someone on BC with no problems other than being as ugly as sin Not 4,000W but 2x500W and now with a neutral looking black case and sold as the NX series. I've also got a couple of Peavey IPR3000 which have been 100%. Probasbly not much help other than to say that cheap PA power amps seem to be generally reliable.

That wasn't really the question I was answering. I thought you were saying you have two lovely 10" speakers already and would it be enough to add a single 12" sub for a four piece band with bass and drums through the PA? Or put another way should you buy a sub or do you have to buy two bigger PA speakers? I think the sub would do it for small and medium venues. You might need a bigger sub, two 12" subs or a very good 12" one though if you play bigger venues. Speaker size alone is only one factor. If you decide to go for the sub I'm absolutely not telling you to set up the same way at every venue. I actually don't think there is a concensus about this. There's no way I'd personally walk into every room and plonk the sub down in the corner or against the back wall next to the kit. The placement depends upon the venue. I'm really saying that whatever you do will have to be a compromise. What is true is that placing the sub on the floor gives you reinforcement, placing it next to a wall a bit more and in the corner most of all. That much isn't about concensus, it's about physics. If your problem at a particular venue is that you don't have enough bass from the subs then put it next to a wall or in a corner and you'll get as much bass as you would adding a second or third sub. If you are playing a small venue or a really boomy room move it away from the walls. You need to know you have options about sub placement. The plus about corner placement if lots of bass to play with. It isn't all plus though. Placing a sub centre stage is going to give your audience the most even spread of sound and the most natural experience. The trouble with this is that you can only really do this successfully if you are on a raised stage, you can't really put a sub in front of your singer/frontperson. Placing it on one side means people on that side will get too much bass and the people on the other side too little (assuming people in the middle get the balance just right). On the plus side sub placement is less critical than what you do with the tops because of the omnidirectional radiation of lw frequencies from speakers. In a smaller venue with a narrow stage it's going to be convenient to put the sub under one of the tops. That might be next to a wall or not. If the room is small you'll have plenty of volume to play with and on a narrow sate no-one is too far from the sub so they will all hear enough bass. The other problem you mentioned is bass feedback with a sub. You might not get feedback at most venues. If you do get it at the sound check then look at the placement of the sub, can you move it away from the drums? If not will moving it away from the wall reduce the bass reaching the drums? If not can you remove the offending frequencies, perhaps by using an HPF in the mixer. Maybe the drums are sitting in a bass trap and moving them a couple of feet will help. If all this sounds problematic then it shouldn't be, once you've got used to your new system you'll set up and have no problems. If you decided to buy a couple of bigger PA speakers to handle the drums you might have the same problems.

OK some experience then. I play in an 'acoustic' duo using a couple of RCF 10's as PA. Also in a couple of bands with RCF15's and crucially an elecctric kit. One particular pub has a really narrow 'stage' and is also quite small and absolutely rammed. With the 15's the band pretty much are all hidden except the singer and can't see the audience either. I've got a pair of 15" subs which I only use for outside gigs so I tried the RCF ART 310's with one of the subs. I placed it up against a side wall with one of the 10's mounted on top the other on the usual stand. First of all the drums sounded immense, the 10's had no trouble with the rest of the frequency spectrum the only problem was getting a good balance between the tops and the subs. I kind of regretted not setting it all up at a rehearsal and should have erred on the side of too little bass rather than too much and due to the packed nature of the pub I couldn't really access the sub during the gig. Oh to have a sound engineer Anyway conclusion is that it works as a system even with fairly modest 10's, I'd anticipate the QSC K10's being a touch pokier than the base level RCF's. I also think a 'good' 12" sub would be enough for most gigs, something of the same sort of quality as the QSC's. I've some spare cash in my band fund at the moment so I've wondered about upgrading from the RCF 310's. I'd have no problem if I started from scratch with going for a sub with a couple of good quality 10's and expecting that to do as good a job as a couple of 15's on poles. If I was doing bigger gigs and didn't have the 15's already I'd probably be looking at a second sub for some gigs. In terms of feedback from the drum mic's then if the sub is under one of your tops and is set to provide the same level of bass as you would have with bigger tops then you should have no extra problems.

Thanks for this, it confirms my own calculations. I don't do it every day and I'm only passingly interested in amps, speakers are more my passion. The idea of a 3" voice coil dissipating more than 500W AES or a 10" speaker being able to handle the excursion to produce 137db across the operating range is absurd. I completely agree with you about Yamaha, I've used a lot of their kit over the years and had a look at these speakers when they first released them. They are really very good at their price point. I didn't know they had gone over to ICEPower but it makes sense as does using the same amp in all the range and throttling back using DSP. I find it hard to totally condemn Yamaha as they are competing in a market where others are making similar claims but they are at the extreme end of over claiming at the moment. Over here RCF are starting to make similar distorted claims though at least 3db down on Yamaha and I noticed recently that Wharfedale have 're-specced' their ranges. It does make me cross though, how on earth is someone who can't do the calculations supposed to make an informed choice. I really blame the lack of a proper regulatory framework and the marketing departments over-ruling the engineers.

I'd rather you didn't. I want them to be more like you Seriously have a look at the SPL levels claimed by some of the reputable PA speaker manufacturers like RCF and Yamaha

The best way of thinking about speaker directionality is picturing it as light. A guitar cab is like a flashlight sending out a focussed beam but spilling a little sound to the sides, a pale reflection of what you get in the main beam. Your PA horns are more like a street lamp spreading the sound evenly over the area you want to illuminate and spilling as little as possible outside that area. The subs are like an old fashioned incandescent lamp, the bare bulb in the middle of the ceiling radiating sound out evenly all round the room but brighter close up and fading over distance. So just like the bare bulb or globe lamp putting your sub in front of you or behind you makes no difference to how loud it is for you. All that really matters is how far away it is. A sub placed a single metre in front of you is going to drown you in low frequency the same as if you place it a metre behind you. As you say positioning in one sense is not important, but distance is and putting the sub close to something that can resonate like a drum skin or an acoustic guitar or double bass is going to make feedback a problem. Ideally also you wnat to think about distance from the audience which is why a central position is ideal, otherwise the people on the side nearest the sub will get more bass than those on the far side of the auditorium. Obviously if you put it at the back of the room the people at the back will hear all the bass but the tops at the other end will be quiet and for the people at the front the bass will have faded but the tops really loud. There are also phase issies but let's keep it simple. Not completely simple though the last consideration are the walls floors and ceilings. Going back to the bare bulb, picture it in a room covered in mirrors; floors, ceiling and walls all covered. The light will be reflected so that on the floor a perfect mirror will double the light you get in your eyes. put it against the wall on the floor and they will both reflect the bulb and you'll get even more light. Now take the bare bulb into the corner and it will reflect off all the surfaces and all the light that was radiating 360deg in a sphere will be reflected back into the room making it really bright for anyone in that corner. Of course you'll see reflections of the bulb all around the room if it is totally mirrored receding into infinity. Hard walls floors and surfaces are almost perfect mirrors for low frequency sound. So QSC K10's plus a 12" sub? Yes please (I'm actually looking for something like this myself as a possible mega portable system) Those 10's are going to be as capable as 12's or even 15's for vocals and guitar, they may even have the same horn drivers. A single 12" sub will probably generate more than enough low end especially if you can place it in a corner. You can get as much as 18db extra bass by careful placement. Those 10's will give you a better sound than most of the 'stick' systems on offer. The only downside is that you will have to sort the placemnt of the subs and there will be a learning curve. That's why I started this thread. 'Subs in Pubs' do solve problems and it's a great idea to reduce the weight of the bits of PA you are lifting and carrying but they do create other challenges and for the UK's ancient buildings the solution has to be different for every venue. You can make this work but expect to have to experiment and for there to be a learning curve. I'm wondering about offering to do PA for friends bands so I can sort problems without having to play bass and sing at the same time

I'd avoid Mark Bass amps. they are no less reliable than their rivals but if they do go wrong outside of the guarantee period expect no support. They have contracted out repairs to a single company and there is no possibility of third party repairs. The only real repair on offer is a complete board replacement at a significant proportion of the cost of a new amp. Ashdown on the other hand offer the best after sales in the business.

That would be nice but thre is a tendency away from that in Europe with advertising claims from reputable firms losing touch with reality. It's the older US manufacturers who tend to be more straightforward in how they spec their poducts. It's not uncommon to see an increase of 6db sensiivity quoted in advertisig over here, so much so that when I saw the correct figure in the Ampeg handbook I thought it worth noting.

Hi John, 300W is +24db to the nearest whole no. So 300W through a 96db/W speaker is 96+24=120db. I've allowed them the extra 1db because I did the calculation in my head to only two places and there might well be some rounding up. For the 2x12 they've simply added 6db I suspect. Adding 6db is not unreasonable. Eminence do plenty of 12's that produce 96db/W so that checks out as being fair at least. Interestingly they only rate the 2x12 as 99db/W. Most manufacturers rate or measure at 2.83V which is 2W into 4 ohms as you know and most rate a 4ohm as 102db which is just a little naughty. If you remember the calculated output of the BC mk1 was between 121 and 122W depending upon which frequency you chose to examine so I don't think there is anything glaringly wrong with what Ampeg are saying. I took the figures for the LFSys cab off their website but again I know they correspond with those on Faital's data sheets. I didn't now I had to show my working 😂😂

Ok full marks to Ampeg for giving good and accurate information on their cabs. I love that they say that sensitivity of 96db/W and 300W gives you 121db of SPL because that is exactly right. Barefaced for example claim 127db for their Big Baby with 95.5db/W sensitivity (according to Eminence who make the drive unit) and 450W handling which works out at 122db give or take a decimal point. So I know exactly how loud in practice 121db is because the two Bass Chat 12" designs @stevie and I designed were 121db speakers, again given a decimal point. I gigged the MK1 for at least two years and only needed the extra cab for outdoor gigs. 121db is about the same level as a drummer. With your amp and the Monaco you will have 98db/W and 600W and that adds up to 125db. To give you another comparison wit the same Eich amp you'll get 127db if you use both your Ampegs. Figures in db are sometimes hard to understand. 1db is the smallest change that you'll notice. You'd bareley notice the difference between the Barefaced and one of your Ampegs or between the LFSys and the pair of your Ampegs. It's there but not very significant. 3 decibels are really the equivalent of turning up a notch, not a huge difference but noticeable by an audience member. A bit like going from 10 to 11 if you like. There's one proviso; the smoother a cabs frequency response the less 'shouty' it will be. The Monaco is the smoothest cab of the lot and maybe the smoothest bass cab available at the moment, some people like shouty and it is a good way of getting heard. Mark Bass make a lot of shouty cabs but I've no idea if the Ampeg is shouty. Hope that helps. the short answer is that I do think one Monaco= 2x112 Ampegs unless you are thrashing the hell out of a pair already

It depends upon what you mean by outperform? It will sound different FOH unless you use an emulator or re-eq. IMO it will sound better but that is down to taste. On stage it will sound louder because of the way the horn is designed to give you a much clearer sound and more like the sound the audience gets. As loud? That's more difficult to answer particularly as I've never used the Ampeg cabs. I can look them up later and give you an opinion based upon the technical information. To an extent it also depends upon your amp. It's a 600W continuous 8ohm cab but if your amp is 300W into 8 as so many are you won't be able to drive it flat out.

Like so many bassists I do the PA, I carry enough speakers Seriously though at the time at the technical level a single 12 was just about enough and two would do anything and that was the advice I was giving beginners on BC. I took my own advice and bought 2x112's but these speakers are special and it turned out that for my needs one speaker was all I ever needed. It was a real shame to have a great speaker doing nothing, after a year of not using it I realised it was a backup I'd never use and sold it on.

I had two Silverstones and never needed to use them both together, one would easily keep pace with a drummer and after a year of never using the second one I sold it on. If anything the Monaco is even more capable. It will handle any pub I've ever played in.

Enjoy your gigging Rick, those Greenboys were a great design. Lovely sound

Your hearing maybe 😂 Sorry, that was meant to be a joke, but that little lot are going to be loud. You do mention ear plugs. I'm with you really despite going the other route. If I was gigging twice a year and had a sorted system I was happy with then I'd just get on with it and make music. I gig maybe 30 gigs a year and probably spend too much on gear. I spent my youth doing sound for people and I designed and built speakers and the technical side of things is as much of a passion for me as playing. I love this stuff! However a lifetime of amplified music has taken a toll on my hearing and there is a better way on offer. Better for the musicians, better for the audience and probably cheaper if you were starting from scratch. Sticking with what you know and love when there isn't a lot of money in it and you prefer just playing and not worrying about it is perfectly sensible. I drive old cars and keep them until they fall apart. I'm always amazed when I drive something newer but cars aren't important to me so long as they work. The Luddites get a bad press, they weren't fighting to stop progress, they were fighting to keep their jobs and feed their families.