Phil Starr

Of course we are only assuming the speaker is 8ohms, I may have some good news; the passive version is 8ohms and it's likely the active version uses the same parts. 4ohms was a good shout from Stevie because it's a way to get more power out of a cheap amp and bump up your figures in the sales literature, if you offered me better than evens I might take a punt on it being 8ohms all the rest of the range are 8 ohms unless they have twin bass drivers http://www.phonic.com/speakers/isk-8-deluxe/ to understand the ratings AES is based upon measurements on how much heat the speaker can handle. (it's as near as you'll get to the rms rating) Music power is simply doubling the AES and Peak Power doubling again hence yours is 175,350,700 and the Fane 225,450 and 900. The main issue on heat dissipation is the size of the voice coil, the Fane has a 2" coil and the Phonic probably 1.5" The figures in the Phonic brochure claiming 124dB only really make sense if the speaker is around 95 dB sensitivity that's close enough to the Fane which is only 97db over part of it's range. I don't think you'll find a better match. I've just read your initial post again. I don't think this speaker was ever enough for bass on-stage you've probably driven it beyond it's excursion. The Fane is a much better driver but I'd be very careful about using a single one for bass.

I'd agree with Stevie, if as I suspect you have a 4-ohm driver then the crossover is going to be way out but if it is an 8 then the Fane 8-225 is a nice driver with a good spec for the price and matches your cab, though it's more than you paid for the cab. I wouldn't trust their specs, you won't find an 8" bass speaker that handles 350W or that produces 124dB probably anywhere but not in a budget cab.. At least it means you don't have to worry too much about power handling though.

serious question. Are you wearing ear defenders? If not you should be. 500W into two 12's you'll be pushing out over 120dB where you stand and the rest of the band may be adding another 6dB. Your average sound exposure will be well over the 100dB level. Over half an hour exposed to those sound levels you will be permanently damaging your hearing and it will get worse each time you play. It seems slow at first but the hearing loss will become noticeable and then seem to accelerate. I speak from experience and wish I had used ear defenders earlier. Your guitarists and drummer will all have problems too. Maybe it has already happened and that's why they won't turn down. Maybe it's already why you can't hear yourself playing in the band. On a practical level you could try re-eq'ing if that's a word. You say it sounds nice at practice levels. Do you reset your eq when you play with the band? Most of your amp power is used up by the deep bass, and that can't be heard over the rest o the band. If you reduce the deep bass a little and boost the upper bass and low mids you'll sound bassier in the mix and it'll give your amp more headroom. If you want to be heard over the band then you need more mids generally. These are the frequencies our ears pick up best so if the guitars have all the mids and you have none they are going to drown you out. Bass eq'd for live work sounds awful played at practice levels but it's what it sounds like as a band that matters. Final point, are you actually not loud enough or just struggling to hear yourself? Try getting a long lead and go out into the audience area or record yourselves and have a listen. It's natural in a band to want to be louder than everyone else so you can hear what you are playing. You have a volume war. Nobody wins at war.

If you live in the West country then it's always worth keeping an eye on Lemonrock. Most of the people who advertise for band members there are cover bands. I've also found bands and band members on JMB. The tricks are to learn to read between the lines a little. A list of 'influences' especially a long one means they know that many songs, one by each of the people mentioned. A mention of genre means they are going to be inflexible. Any mention of timewasters means 'my way or no way' and so on. Any band who have gigged regularly will be able to tell you where and will probably have recordings and video and a website or active Facebook page as a minimum. I've asked every time if people have any recordings and it cuts out most of the dreamers. The thing is to be clear about what you are looking for and what you can offer. Be clear about what is essential and what you are prepared to compromise on. Then you know exactly what to ask when people make contact. For example I'm completely unclear about what you are seeking, a gigging band? They are probably going to need someone who will learn all their songs in a few weeks, they'll have set lists if they are covers bands and recordings with chord sheets if they play originals, if not you know they aren't well organised. The next step down is a start up band, they should be at least at the rehearsal stage and have the other musicians in place. Most start ups never leave the rehearsal room unless at least some of them have gigged regularly in the past.

This is really good advice. They are so helpful

OK had a quick look and as far as I can see the Ashdown cab is something like 35litres internally. That's a touch bigger than the cab I gigged with this afternoon with SM212's in. They certainly work in that sized cab. If you live anywhere near Somerset you'd be welcome to see how they sound. Interestingly we had a shootout a couple of years ago where a little Ashdown 1x12 surprised us all by sounding rather good compared with some much more expensive cabs in our room with admittedly poor acoustics. I designed my little cab a year ago as an attempt to counter some of the difficult small venues I was playing and built it in the same room at the bash a year ago. I thought at the time it sounded rather like the Ashdown of a year before though that hadn't been my intention.

I don't often comment on the quality of particular cabs, I prefer the safer objectivity of technical issues to the subjective judgement of what sounds best/suits my needs. However I've heard Jim's cab a few times now at the SW Bass Bash and we had a chance to compare it with the new 1x12 design Stevie is doing on Basschat. In fact Jim spent some time playing through both. I love the sound of Jim's Greenboy/Fearless cab but I felt the Basschat design matched it fairly well, one edged the other in some areas but I don't think one cab had a clear advantage. Both are exceptionally good IMO. I'd be interested if Jim came on here to give what he felt about the comparison between the two. Of course you'd have to build the Basschat Mk2 but if the kits work out that won't be such a difficult option.

I should be playing bass. Have a really good look round the cab, buzzing can easily be from one of many things. Often the wires touching the cone! Just removing your speaker and re fixing it may sort the problem. then have a good look at the speaker. Tears in the cone? look a the dust cover dome in the middle, they can get unstuck over time, also look carefully where the cone meets the pleated surround, again it cam come unglued as can the surround from the speaker frame. Any loose screws stuck to the magnet? Back to the bass

I suppose this is probably one for me. I gigged Fri and yesterday with my two Mk1 Beyma cabs and I've another gig today. Obviously I'm reasonably happy with them. It's also my excuse for a shortish reply. I don't know the Little Bastard so I'll need to look it up before I give you a detailed reply, I've got some bass to sort out for todays gig. They (SM212) aren't your typical bass speakers. The cone break up at higher frequencies is particularly well controlled so they have a fairly flat upper response. Most bass speakers have a mid range peak that gives speakers a bit of extra 'bite' to the sound. They also have extended excursion with a nice long voice coil so they handle the lows well, which is what you want. They will sound different to what you have though, without a tweeter you may miss that bite. Obviously I haven't found it a problem and you can just re-eq but it isn't for everyone. Basically if you change the driver you'll lose everything the LB gives you except the look, and that is true of any speaker swap. The other thing to consider would be an HPF. Your speakers are struggling because of the extra deep bass, but here's the secret, you can't actually hear it. Our ears are really insensitive to deep bass, and there is precious little energy down there in most basses. What you do have from a fiver is a richer mix of lower harmonics and a bit less of the upper ones from those nice fat strings. That means if you use something like a Thumpinator you probably won't hear a lot of difference to your sound (except it will sound cleaner) and your audience even less so. It'll cut the speaker excursion at 30Hz by maybe 100x (10,000%) That'll stop the speaker flapping about and return the coil to where it is meant to be. That might give you what you want without messing about with your cabs. I'll have a look a the practicalities later if you want and see if I can find something that will work in your cab

It's not a completely new idea, though an interesting application of an old one to electric guitar. The bit that I do like is the angled pieced behind the speaker. You always get standing waves in a square box and these would prevent that. I've put a triangular brace on the back of closed hi-fi cab designs before now and there are lots of similar ideas floating around in 1940/50's designs. This is a neat solution. Back in 1973 I built and sold a few PA speakers with conical horns on the ports. I didn't know about Thiele/Small in those days and there were all sorts of designs floating about. Amps were very expensive and speaker handling fairly low so efficiency was all. I'd started to design a direct radiating cab with a horn on the back when I needed something for a quick job, so instead of building the folded horn I intended I just moved one of the panels to make a simple triangular horn like the one Alex came up with but facing forward. The cab sounded good, was simple to construct and people started asking for them so I never finished the design, just sold what I had. Very little treble came out of my horns and I hate the idea of sound bouncing around randomly off everything behind the cab. As a sound engineer you'd probably share that horror. You'd also have a cab that sounded good in some rooms and not others. To be fair Alex was only speculating when asked, and if it sounds good then it sounds good, I've been amazed how long it's taken for people to get round to looking at better guitar cabs.

I think you've answered your own question. You fancy a proper amp and cab. You want to use your Ampeg. Buy a good quality 8ohm speaker based on whether you like how it sounds. If you like it but need more volume go and buy another at a later date. If you end up using the Helix and FRFR more than the 'proper' bass setup then you can sell the bits you don't use. Used gear means you'll spend very little whilst you find what works for you. It sounds like you have enough active gear to at least find out what FRFR will do for you sound wise and you know it from your guitar work. The theory behind using 8 ohms is simple. The output of a speaker is usually limited by the heat dispersion of the speaker and crucially the excursion. If you are driving the speaker into distortion with bass then it is ultimately going to fail. Your amp is going to drive your speaker as loud as it will go whether it is 8ohm or 4ohm. Even if all the power at 4ohms was available to you it would only give you between 1and 2dB extra anyway, and in most cases it isn't. Adding a second 8ohm driver increases the efficiency of the system and will give you 4-5db extra, which you will notice. FWIW I use both methods depending upon the band I'm playing with. One 12 with a bass amp for my covers bands, two when the venue is bigger and FRFR with my duo. RCF ART10's both as floor monitors and for FOH. I also have a 1x10 Kickback combo, it's only loud enough as a personal monitor but It's my favourite solution if I have PA support and it does get the stage levels down.

Welcome back to the bass. light weight is where we are at nowadays. Some of the old gear still sounds good but few of us would trade the sheer practicality of compact and lightweight for possible improvements in tone, if they do actually exist. I think you need to think in terms of building a system. There are a couple of choices to make up front. Do you want to go with a flat response monitor on stage and generate your tone with electronics or do you want to have an amp which will be used to give you your tone? Separately you need to decide I you want to use the PA to provide your bass to the audience or to provide all or most of the bass from your back line? Obviously if you do then you need a bigger system especially if you are likely to ever play in bigger venues. The first thing then is tone. Choose based on how it sounds, not on some notion of size. If you are going to work with amp emulators then they are going to work best with systems that add no coloration of their own. Some bassists are using PA speakers on stage to achieve this. Look up FRFR on this site. If you want the amp/speaker/combo to be part of your tone then choose on how it sounds first and foremost. Start with a single 8ohm speaker and you can add a second for extra volume if you need it. If you add an identical speaker you will hold onto 'your'tone. I play in a number of bands. I've gone for flexibility. A 300/500W amp and a couple of 12" speakers. A single 12 is enough for rehearsals and small gigs and plenty if you go through the PA. Adding a second let's me play bigger venues without PA support. I don't often play with PA provided but the festivals we do play I have been let down more often than not by the sound engineers so now I take everything with me. If someone mucks up I have the backup on stage and if not well I don't have to turn the master volume up. I've not found a single 10 to be quite enough unless you filter out some of the deep bass, and/or use compression. Most decent 12's will match all but the loudest drummer. If you are looking for somewhere to start and you want to be as light and compact as possible I'd say go for a single 12 at 8ohms and an amp which will drve 300W into 8/500 into 4ohms. That's unless you decide to go down the FRFR on-stage monitor route. You can add a second matching 12 later if you join a band and find you need it. Mainly though listen to the sound.

Nearly there, well done In your situation I couldn't wait, you could always connect up your wires to the speaker and take them out of the cab and connect them to your amp/speaker lead directly or with a piece of chocolate box connector. If you take then out of the holes you made for the speakons they'll be easy to connect to the socket when you get them and for testing purposes you can easily plug the hole with a sock to make it more or less air tight. Just Saying. Hope you like your new speaker.

That's terrific Luke, I might have to go back and tidy up my old Mk 1 cabs.

This. I take my B1ON and an iPod (just an old fashioned boy)

I think the answer is in the question. If you decide to go ahead it would be fun to try. If you have both cabs and an amp happy to drive into 2ohms, why wouldn't you try it out? If the cabs both have identical drivers then the sound won't be that different, you'll lose a little of the mid/highs off axis but you've already lost a little by using an 8x10 so it probably won't be a dramatic change. If you mix cabs with different drivers in then the sound outcome is less predictable, you may like it more or maybe less. I'd think volume won't be an issue anyway other than the possibility of damage to your hearing, I don't suppose you ever drive your 8x10 flat out, but of course you are going to try it Buying a 6x10 as a smaller rig is 'interesting'. The footprint on stage is going to be the same and it's only a small saving in weight. If you want to buy just to have the look of a vast rig or because you really do want more volume then another matching 8 would be a better bet if you are planning to use the two cabs together a lot but that's a personal choice of course. If we are honest most of us will try bass through every cab that passes our way given half a chance.

Good news then that it is on it's way back.

Oh dear, the wavelength of a note at 1000Hz is just over 34cm and the first standing wave is half that, clearly that is nowhere near the size of a bass cab back to front. Modern bass cabs are sooo small. No, wait that's exactly the size they are. Air mass to the driver, well if you want to do a detailed explanation of adiabatic process to people here then be my guest. This was my simplification to help someone who wants to try something out to improve their speaker. As to the idea that we have good modelling software that will adequately take into account all the variables and make accurate predictions, well let's just say I've yet to be convinced, perhaps you can point me to the maths behind it. I'm watching he Handmaids Tale tomorrow. I'm old school, I recorded it.

Stuffing cabs is relatively complex in theory easier in practice. Stuffing in the cab space can act to break up standing waves in the air in the cab. At a slightly higher density it can alter the way the air works so that the air mass seems bigger to the speaker. Heavy damping material on the back of the cab could be there to damp reflection off the panel which is otherwise reflected straight back out of the thin paper cone. HiFi cabs often have a mineral loaded bitumen sheet on the walls of the cab. This mass loads the panel and damps resonance in the panel itself. Generally speaking I don't bother much with damping materials in instrument cabs. The little sheets of white polyester in a lot of commercial cabs are there for show IMO they are far too light and thin to make much if any difference. If you feel inclined it might be worth experimenting with a good thick layer on three opposite panels. You need to achieve densities of around a couple of pounds per cu ft (google that if you are young ) Alternatively you could try concentrating it all on the rear panel to stop the reflection thing Have a good listen before and after and be prepared to experiment, it's a cheap way of tweaking your speaker and you can pull it all out if you don't like it If the cab is ported keep any stuffing well away from the ports or you will lose your tuning.

Lucky I'm a control freak then. So far it's invite only, if someone comes up from the floor it's one or two songs and if they are no good that's the last time. I read all the horror stories at the beginning of this thread. We've got a number of proper open mic's near us where anything goes. There are some great people but also those who can only play one song and who started playing two months ago. I don't mind going to those and the mix means you always get a couple of people who are worth listening to but I don't want any of them here. That's why I've stuck to a band format, at least I know most of the people on stage will know what they are doing.

I thought I'd run an update now I've run a couple of sessions. We're running on Fri nights, gig round here tend to be on a Sat and a lot of my friends can't do mid week with work commitments, this has shaded what we do so for the pubs benefit I'm keeping the standards reasonably high. So far the local musicians have really taken my arm off. Almost everyone who has been asked has come along to play and those who have come have all wanted to do it again. The musicians are networking as I'd hoped, there's been one serious band formed and one possible romance developing, which I didn't foresee We've settled down to a very simple format which makes management easy for me at the moment. Everyone is getting half an hour with 5 or 6 sets in an evening. We have a small group of musicians who I use as a house band in variable combinations. the sets are either local bands who come and do their thing for 30 mins or a singer with the house band. I'm getting a list of songs in advance so the house band get a chance to have a look before they get there and to cut down the time when everyone tries to decide which song they are doing next. I've new got singers starting to want to join in but so far no new musicians but i'll probably try and get them up with the house band for a few songs if they do. I've had a few minor issues with the PA, mainly when I'm up on stage and somebody else takes over at the desk (but a few cockups of my own) it's years since I mixed FOH. I played less last time and the sound out front apart from hiccups is already as good if not better than most of the cover bands around. Next month it looks like I'm going to have a shortage of acts rather than a surplus, mainly due to holidays. I'm going to expand the house band set if I don't find anyone. The other problem is numbers, I asked the pub for petrol money and beer for the performers but they are paying me and probably making a loss on the evening. They are really supportive and understand the audience will build up over time whilst the standard remains high but I don't want them to make a loss. I'm off to have a meeting with them this week to see what we can do collectively to build up no's. Many thanks to Graham T and Chienmortbb for their bass playing at the event and for Jim and Woody for offering to help. I love basschatters.

Bob, I hope you manage to get your gear sorted and you grow to love it. In the end it is the music that matters and the gear is the means to make that happen, good luck.

I'm really surprised HPF's aren't more widespread or cheaper as an fx pedal. It's a lot simpler to implement than even a simple tone control. Behringer do a graphic for £18 for example and I don't think the BD121 is much more. There seems to be a real blind spot about it.

I'd completely agree with Bill on this, which perhaps doesn't move things on but Stevie and I disagree for example, he's much more worried about chuffing than I am. He's demonstrated to me that one of my cabs chuffed (is that a word) at only 10W, however I've gigged that cab for years without ever noticing any unusual sounds. I'd have argued that at those frequencies the output could easily be 18dB down so that's equivalent to 640W of broadband power but I was startled to se that so little power was needed at low frequencies. If you used a conventional bass control however 12dB of boost which would be greatest at the extreme frequencies would make it interesting. One thing we did notice however is that port area used in winISD for calculation of port velocity isn't the only important factor, we found four small diameter ports chuffed much earlier than a single larger diameter port of slightly smaller cross section. In reality it's a compromise you kind of work out yourself depending upon the design goals you set out. I'd be much less cavalier with a hi fi cab than a bass cab. Often the constraint is the size of the port and the size of the cab. With a small cab a port which kept within your 18M/s could be almost as big as the cab at 40Hz, where would you put it? Another reason for an HPF.

You are getting very good advice from everyone here. So far everyone is agreeing with each other and giving you consistent advice. In the end it is up to you whether to believe us or 'someone said'. You were told on the very first page that these speakers would be limited in some ways and to at least look at better quality kit if you could afford it. It's not a surprise that a speaker at this price point and presumably matching quality stands are a bit wobbly. We can't see them so you have to decide for yourself if they are so bad as to be unusable and return them. One thing to try is that they seem to have a winged bolt on the base of the speaker to clamp the speaker to the stand. Try tightening that if you haven't already. Don't over tighten though as the plastic case of the speaker isn't likely to be as strong as you are. Despite what 'someone said' there is only one way to get consistently good sound. Use your ears. The technique is very simple, start with everything set flat both on your mixer and the speaker. If both are good then that will give you the most natural sound, any adjustments are about correcting any problems, either with the gear, your voice or with the room acoustics, which will change from room to room. You can do the equalisation or EQ from the mixer or using the speaker's eq. Honestly, don't try doing both. Since you'll probably have the mixer next to you when you perform and the speakers probably out of reach it makes sense to set the speaker flat and use the mixer to control it. Make small adjustments and listen after each adjustment, if you think you have it right then return everything to flat and listen again to check it does actually sound as good as you think. You've chosen a speaker with DSP, where a computer runs the eq and you have to enter the instructions through a menu. We don't have the manual so you will have to solve that yourself by reading the manual. Another reason to set everything flat and use the tone controls on the mixer. However the DSP will protect the speaker from anything silly you might do (like turning the bass control up fully) you can experiment away without fear. A tone control is anything that controls the tone. they may be bass, middle and treble or they may be labelled by frequency 50Hz, 320Hz and so on. They may be knobs, sliders or on a screen but they all do the same thing. Almost all will either boost or cut the sound and have a middle position that is flat. Knobs and sliders are easier to understand than computers but they are doing the same thing.