Phil Starr

I should be playing bass. Have a really good look round the cab, buzzing can easily be from one of many things. Often the wires touching the cone! Just removing your speaker and re fixing it may sort the problem. then have a good look at the speaker. Tears in the cone? look a the dust cover dome in the middle, they can get unstuck over time, also look carefully where the cone meets the pleated surround, again it cam come unglued as can the surround from the speaker frame. Any loose screws stuck to the magnet? Back to the bass

I suppose this is probably one for me. I gigged Fri and yesterday with my two Mk1 Beyma cabs and I've another gig today. Obviously I'm reasonably happy with them. It's also my excuse for a shortish reply. I don't know the Little Bastard so I'll need to look it up before I give you a detailed reply, I've got some bass to sort out for todays gig. They (SM212) aren't your typical bass speakers. The cone break up at higher frequencies is particularly well controlled so they have a fairly flat upper response. Most bass speakers have a mid range peak that gives speakers a bit of extra 'bite' to the sound. They also have extended excursion with a nice long voice coil so they handle the lows well, which is what you want. They will sound different to what you have though, without a tweeter you may miss that bite. Obviously I haven't found it a problem and you can just re-eq but it isn't for everyone. Basically if you change the driver you'll lose everything the LB gives you except the look, and that is true of any speaker swap. The other thing to consider would be an HPF. Your speakers are struggling because of the extra deep bass, but here's the secret, you can't actually hear it. Our ears are really insensitive to deep bass, and there is precious little energy down there in most basses. What you do have from a fiver is a richer mix of lower harmonics and a bit less of the upper ones from those nice fat strings. That means if you use something like a Thumpinator you probably won't hear a lot of difference to your sound (except it will sound cleaner) and your audience even less so. It'll cut the speaker excursion at 30Hz by maybe 100x (10,000%) That'll stop the speaker flapping about and return the coil to where it is meant to be. That might give you what you want without messing about with your cabs. I'll have a look a the practicalities later if you want and see if I can find something that will work in your cab

It's not a completely new idea, though an interesting application of an old one to electric guitar. The bit that I do like is the angled pieced behind the speaker. You always get standing waves in a square box and these would prevent that. I've put a triangular brace on the back of closed hi-fi cab designs before now and there are lots of similar ideas floating around in 1940/50's designs. This is a neat solution. Back in 1973 I built and sold a few PA speakers with conical horns on the ports. I didn't know about Thiele/Small in those days and there were all sorts of designs floating about. Amps were very expensive and speaker handling fairly low so efficiency was all. I'd started to design a direct radiating cab with a horn on the back when I needed something for a quick job, so instead of building the folded horn I intended I just moved one of the panels to make a simple triangular horn like the one Alex came up with but facing forward. The cab sounded good, was simple to construct and people started asking for them so I never finished the design, just sold what I had. Very little treble came out of my horns and I hate the idea of sound bouncing around randomly off everything behind the cab. As a sound engineer you'd probably share that horror. You'd also have a cab that sounded good in some rooms and not others. To be fair Alex was only speculating when asked, and if it sounds good then it sounds good, I've been amazed how long it's taken for people to get round to looking at better guitar cabs.

I think you've answered your own question. You fancy a proper amp and cab. You want to use your Ampeg. Buy a good quality 8ohm speaker based on whether you like how it sounds. If you like it but need more volume go and buy another at a later date. If you end up using the Helix and FRFR more than the 'proper' bass setup then you can sell the bits you don't use. Used gear means you'll spend very little whilst you find what works for you. It sounds like you have enough active gear to at least find out what FRFR will do for you sound wise and you know it from your guitar work. The theory behind using 8 ohms is simple. The output of a speaker is usually limited by the heat dispersion of the speaker and crucially the excursion. If you are driving the speaker into distortion with bass then it is ultimately going to fail. Your amp is going to drive your speaker as loud as it will go whether it is 8ohm or 4ohm. Even if all the power at 4ohms was available to you it would only give you between 1and 2dB extra anyway, and in most cases it isn't. Adding a second 8ohm driver increases the efficiency of the system and will give you 4-5db extra, which you will notice. FWIW I use both methods depending upon the band I'm playing with. One 12 with a bass amp for my covers bands, two when the venue is bigger and FRFR with my duo. RCF ART10's both as floor monitors and for FOH. I also have a 1x10 Kickback combo, it's only loud enough as a personal monitor but It's my favourite solution if I have PA support and it does get the stage levels down.

Welcome back to the bass. light weight is where we are at nowadays. Some of the old gear still sounds good but few of us would trade the sheer practicality of compact and lightweight for possible improvements in tone, if they do actually exist. I think you need to think in terms of building a system. There are a couple of choices to make up front. Do you want to go with a flat response monitor on stage and generate your tone with electronics or do you want to have an amp which will be used to give you your tone? Separately you need to decide I you want to use the PA to provide your bass to the audience or to provide all or most of the bass from your back line? Obviously if you do then you need a bigger system especially if you are likely to ever play in bigger venues. The first thing then is tone. Choose based on how it sounds, not on some notion of size. If you are going to work with amp emulators then they are going to work best with systems that add no coloration of their own. Some bassists are using PA speakers on stage to achieve this. Look up FRFR on this site. If you want the amp/speaker/combo to be part of your tone then choose on how it sounds first and foremost. Start with a single 8ohm speaker and you can add a second for extra volume if you need it. If you add an identical speaker you will hold onto 'your'tone. I play in a number of bands. I've gone for flexibility. A 300/500W amp and a couple of 12" speakers. A single 12 is enough for rehearsals and small gigs and plenty if you go through the PA. Adding a second let's me play bigger venues without PA support. I don't often play with PA provided but the festivals we do play I have been let down more often than not by the sound engineers so now I take everything with me. If someone mucks up I have the backup on stage and if not well I don't have to turn the master volume up. I've not found a single 10 to be quite enough unless you filter out some of the deep bass, and/or use compression. Most decent 12's will match all but the loudest drummer. If you are looking for somewhere to start and you want to be as light and compact as possible I'd say go for a single 12 at 8ohms and an amp which will drve 300W into 8/500 into 4ohms. That's unless you decide to go down the FRFR on-stage monitor route. You can add a second matching 12 later if you join a band and find you need it. Mainly though listen to the sound.

Nearly there, well done In your situation I couldn't wait, you could always connect up your wires to the speaker and take them out of the cab and connect them to your amp/speaker lead directly or with a piece of chocolate box connector. If you take then out of the holes you made for the speakons they'll be easy to connect to the socket when you get them and for testing purposes you can easily plug the hole with a sock to make it more or less air tight. Just Saying. Hope you like your new speaker.

That's terrific Luke, I might have to go back and tidy up my old Mk 1 cabs.

This. I take my B1ON and an iPod (just an old fashioned boy)

I think the answer is in the question. If you decide to go ahead it would be fun to try. If you have both cabs and an amp happy to drive into 2ohms, why wouldn't you try it out? If the cabs both have identical drivers then the sound won't be that different, you'll lose a little of the mid/highs off axis but you've already lost a little by using an 8x10 so it probably won't be a dramatic change. If you mix cabs with different drivers in then the sound outcome is less predictable, you may like it more or maybe less. I'd think volume won't be an issue anyway other than the possibility of damage to your hearing, I don't suppose you ever drive your 8x10 flat out, but of course you are going to try it Buying a 6x10 as a smaller rig is 'interesting'. The footprint on stage is going to be the same and it's only a small saving in weight. If you want to buy just to have the look of a vast rig or because you really do want more volume then another matching 8 would be a better bet if you are planning to use the two cabs together a lot but that's a personal choice of course. If we are honest most of us will try bass through every cab that passes our way given half a chance.

Good news then that it is on it's way back.

Oh dear, the wavelength of a note at 1000Hz is just over 34cm and the first standing wave is half that, clearly that is nowhere near the size of a bass cab back to front. Modern bass cabs are sooo small. No, wait that's exactly the size they are. Air mass to the driver, well if you want to do a detailed explanation of adiabatic process to people here then be my guest. This was my simplification to help someone who wants to try something out to improve their speaker. As to the idea that we have good modelling software that will adequately take into account all the variables and make accurate predictions, well let's just say I've yet to be convinced, perhaps you can point me to the maths behind it. I'm watching he Handmaids Tale tomorrow. I'm old school, I recorded it.

Stuffing cabs is relatively complex in theory easier in practice. Stuffing in the cab space can act to break up standing waves in the air in the cab. At a slightly higher density it can alter the way the air works so that the air mass seems bigger to the speaker. Heavy damping material on the back of the cab could be there to damp reflection off the panel which is otherwise reflected straight back out of the thin paper cone. HiFi cabs often have a mineral loaded bitumen sheet on the walls of the cab. This mass loads the panel and damps resonance in the panel itself. Generally speaking I don't bother much with damping materials in instrument cabs. The little sheets of white polyester in a lot of commercial cabs are there for show IMO they are far too light and thin to make much if any difference. If you feel inclined it might be worth experimenting with a good thick layer on three opposite panels. You need to achieve densities of around a couple of pounds per cu ft (google that if you are young ) Alternatively you could try concentrating it all on the rear panel to stop the reflection thing Have a good listen before and after and be prepared to experiment, it's a cheap way of tweaking your speaker and you can pull it all out if you don't like it If the cab is ported keep any stuffing well away from the ports or you will lose your tuning.

Lucky I'm a control freak then. So far it's invite only, if someone comes up from the floor it's one or two songs and if they are no good that's the last time. I read all the horror stories at the beginning of this thread. We've got a number of proper open mic's near us where anything goes. There are some great people but also those who can only play one song and who started playing two months ago. I don't mind going to those and the mix means you always get a couple of people who are worth listening to but I don't want any of them here. That's why I've stuck to a band format, at least I know most of the people on stage will know what they are doing.

I thought I'd run an update now I've run a couple of sessions. We're running on Fri nights, gig round here tend to be on a Sat and a lot of my friends can't do mid week with work commitments, this has shaded what we do so for the pubs benefit I'm keeping the standards reasonably high. So far the local musicians have really taken my arm off. Almost everyone who has been asked has come along to play and those who have come have all wanted to do it again. The musicians are networking as I'd hoped, there's been one serious band formed and one possible romance developing, which I didn't foresee We've settled down to a very simple format which makes management easy for me at the moment. Everyone is getting half an hour with 5 or 6 sets in an evening. We have a small group of musicians who I use as a house band in variable combinations. the sets are either local bands who come and do their thing for 30 mins or a singer with the house band. I'm getting a list of songs in advance so the house band get a chance to have a look before they get there and to cut down the time when everyone tries to decide which song they are doing next. I've new got singers starting to want to join in but so far no new musicians but i'll probably try and get them up with the house band for a few songs if they do. I've had a few minor issues with the PA, mainly when I'm up on stage and somebody else takes over at the desk (but a few cockups of my own) it's years since I mixed FOH. I played less last time and the sound out front apart from hiccups is already as good if not better than most of the cover bands around. Next month it looks like I'm going to have a shortage of acts rather than a surplus, mainly due to holidays. I'm going to expand the house band set if I don't find anyone. The other problem is numbers, I asked the pub for petrol money and beer for the performers but they are paying me and probably making a loss on the evening. They are really supportive and understand the audience will build up over time whilst the standard remains high but I don't want them to make a loss. I'm off to have a meeting with them this week to see what we can do collectively to build up no's. Many thanks to Graham T and Chienmortbb for their bass playing at the event and for Jim and Woody for offering to help. I love basschatters.

Bob, I hope you manage to get your gear sorted and you grow to love it. In the end it is the music that matters and the gear is the means to make that happen, good luck.

I'm really surprised HPF's aren't more widespread or cheaper as an fx pedal. It's a lot simpler to implement than even a simple tone control. Behringer do a graphic for £18 for example and I don't think the BD121 is much more. There seems to be a real blind spot about it.

I'd completely agree with Bill on this, which perhaps doesn't move things on but Stevie and I disagree for example, he's much more worried about chuffing than I am. He's demonstrated to me that one of my cabs chuffed (is that a word) at only 10W, however I've gigged that cab for years without ever noticing any unusual sounds. I'd have argued that at those frequencies the output could easily be 18dB down so that's equivalent to 640W of broadband power but I was startled to se that so little power was needed at low frequencies. If you used a conventional bass control however 12dB of boost which would be greatest at the extreme frequencies would make it interesting. One thing we did notice however is that port area used in winISD for calculation of port velocity isn't the only important factor, we found four small diameter ports chuffed much earlier than a single larger diameter port of slightly smaller cross section. In reality it's a compromise you kind of work out yourself depending upon the design goals you set out. I'd be much less cavalier with a hi fi cab than a bass cab. Often the constraint is the size of the port and the size of the cab. With a small cab a port which kept within your 18M/s could be almost as big as the cab at 40Hz, where would you put it? Another reason for an HPF.

You are getting very good advice from everyone here. So far everyone is agreeing with each other and giving you consistent advice. In the end it is up to you whether to believe us or 'someone said'. You were told on the very first page that these speakers would be limited in some ways and to at least look at better quality kit if you could afford it. It's not a surprise that a speaker at this price point and presumably matching quality stands are a bit wobbly. We can't see them so you have to decide for yourself if they are so bad as to be unusable and return them. One thing to try is that they seem to have a winged bolt on the base of the speaker to clamp the speaker to the stand. Try tightening that if you haven't already. Don't over tighten though as the plastic case of the speaker isn't likely to be as strong as you are. Despite what 'someone said' there is only one way to get consistently good sound. Use your ears. The technique is very simple, start with everything set flat both on your mixer and the speaker. If both are good then that will give you the most natural sound, any adjustments are about correcting any problems, either with the gear, your voice or with the room acoustics, which will change from room to room. You can do the equalisation or EQ from the mixer or using the speaker's eq. Honestly, don't try doing both. Since you'll probably have the mixer next to you when you perform and the speakers probably out of reach it makes sense to set the speaker flat and use the mixer to control it. Make small adjustments and listen after each adjustment, if you think you have it right then return everything to flat and listen again to check it does actually sound as good as you think. You've chosen a speaker with DSP, where a computer runs the eq and you have to enter the instructions through a menu. We don't have the manual so you will have to solve that yourself by reading the manual. Another reason to set everything flat and use the tone controls on the mixer. However the DSP will protect the speaker from anything silly you might do (like turning the bass control up fully) you can experiment away without fear. A tone control is anything that controls the tone. they may be bass, middle and treble or they may be labelled by frequency 50Hz, 320Hz and so on. They may be knobs, sliders or on a screen but they all do the same thing. Almost all will either boost or cut the sound and have a middle position that is flat. Knobs and sliders are easier to understand than computers but they are doing the same thing.

yes the top one is the horn. You probably don't need to worry about the wobble, but obviously I can't see it so you'll have to decide that for yourself. Speaker stands are never that stable with a heavy speaker on a lightweight stand so you always need to be careful where you put them. It is however one of the areas where quality kit shows it is better made. Our QSC speakers on expensive K&M stands are better than most for example. You can wrap some tape round the top of the stand if you want to make it a tighter fit, but make sure you don't make it so tight you can't remove the speaker. Most tone controls can turn the tone up or down, the bass control can cut the bass or increase it for example. For most of them 12 o'clock (with the pointer straight upwards) means they are leaving the tone in a neutral position. Some even have a little notch so you can feel a click as you turn the knob to neutral. You said "My mixer is all ready set to maximum high EQ and minimum low EQ" That doesn't sound right so I'm suggesting you set everything back to flat and start again with your new speakers. In any case you don't want to adjust the tone at both the speaker and the mixer so set the speaker controls flat and adjust everything at the mixer. The output XLR is for driving a second speaker with the same signal as the first, theoretically then you can go on adding more speakers in a daisy chain to make things as loud as you want.

For use at home you don't need to raise the speakers so put them on the floor or just at minimum height. At a gig you need to make sure that where possible you raise the horn at least above the heads of the audience or the people at the front will absorb the higher frequencies. Cheap stands and speakers wobble, so do a few expensive ones. You have two mixable inputs so that people who want to can mix a guitar and their vocals without having to take a separate mixer. The modes are just a range of pre set tone control settings, try them all and sdecide which sounds best. Probably 'live' for live work. Start off with your tone controls all set to flat, no boost or cut, then adjust them a little at a time if you need to. No boost of cut will give you the most natural sound probably. The high pass filter cuts out bass more sharply than the tone controls. 80Hz is useful for vocals as it cuts out a lot of handling and noise from the vocal mic but it will reduce the bass from your backing tracks as well. The other frequencies are so you can use the speakers with a bass bin/sub woofer. As you don't have one switch the filter to off. The time delay is for people using lot's of speakers in a large space, turn it off.

Why not contact Ashdown? Your biggest advantage is that they are UK based and unbelievably helpful. Obviously this is an unusual request but if you don't ask... If not and you don't want to split the cabs unless you have to then I can't see building a single combo cab to the same dimensions as the original will be any more difficult than building two separate cabs. You have the original as a template. If you build it of ply then it will be a little lighter than the chipboard and a lot tougher. If you DIY it then the only problem with a combo is the difficulty in covering the finished cab with vinyl. You can get round that by using Tuffcoat as used by a lot of manufacturers now. First of all though contact Ashdown. Edit oops should have read all the way through, shouldn't give advice when I've only just woken up, sorry.

You've got the luxury of time as you have two good quality working rigs. Continue with the PJB use the Ashdown for bigger gigs and if you want to expand wait until you can go for the PJB you really want. Anything else is going to change the sound you love so the Ashdown for the big gigs is probably going to be just as good as the PJB+ a different cab. you could also mic the PJB and put it through the PA of course. there's nothing to stop you trying the combination either, it probably won't sound the way you expect but it might be something you like and it won't cost anything to try.

If it is any help I eventually bought the K&M 21090, the one with the telescopic boom arm. There's a slightly cheaper one which is the basic stand with a simpler boom, both are excellent. I paid £107 for a pack of three (no sniggering amongst the older members).

No, I'm saying that the size doesn't matter.

You don't know that. Someone said it to you, but they were wrong. That's what I've ben trying to tell you. Oh well it doesn't really matter. In a 12" cab the bass driver is 12" in a 15" the bass driver is 15"