4 Strings

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1323081477' post='1458903'] So what is your idea of pure bass, and when did you think it was not 'overprocessed'? [/quote] Already used examples, here's one again, try the intro to 'Tighten Up' Archie and the Drells for a natural sound of flat strings. I would also repeat that no-one has ever suggested a 'pure sound' has ever been recorded and reproduced nor even desired, there's no extremes in this argument at all so no point going to them, just a direction. Think of the food analogy and some seasoning (which you can also taste) on a fresh pork chop compared to a McD (about which someone once said the TWO slices of gherkin is to prevent it being classified as a sweet).

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1323080519' post='1458881'] I can't help but feel that the OP is on a lone quest for some unattainable nirvana of sonic purity while the rest of us have embraced and are revelling in the distortions that occur in the signal path and are wondering exactly what the problem is. [/quote] Not at all, just discussing a discovery that the natural sound of a bass guitar is now largely regarded as unpalatable and suggesting this is a result of flattery from sound processing to which I, at least, have become used to.

I absolutely agree with all this, its one of my bugbears, but the whole compression and mastering thing is another (hugely interesting) thread though as I'm talking about bass sounds, initially from our rigs even though your comments are making the same point as me but in a slightly different area (ie mastering as opposed to original bass guitar sound). To use an analogous example; in the US their govt tried to get school lunches to include more fruit and veg but after the lobbying of large food makers have conceded that frozen pizza is a vegetable. If we cast the morals (and bemused smirk!) etc aside for a sec, a commentator noted that: [i]"Research shows that a constant diet of sugary, salty and fatty products adjusts the taste preferences to the point where simple, real foods taste bland and unappealing, ensuring people keep eating junk."[/i] We have all been saying that taking off the sugar and salt of the sound processing, real bass guitar sound is bland and unappealing. We can also say 'well I don't care so long as I like it' etc but aren't fresh veg and meat a refreshing change from McD? (I know, we all put on a bit of salt and pepper but you get my drift.) While the argument applies to mastering and all the other areas people have raised (and now food and, I'm sure, lots of other areas in life) I discovered that I had unconsciously been programmed to be impressed by a sound that has been processed to sound impressive but not like my bass guitar. I need the sugar and salt.

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1323040453' post='1458677'] Strange this, the very best monitors are the flattest. Its the holy grail for sound engineers (well actually the flattest that work in the room). Now most people will talk about monitors therefore sounding bland and what have you. IME that is nonsense, care to take a guess at what they have in Abbey Road? B&W 800 series. These aren't even supposed to be monitors, but rather they very best hifi speakers you can buy (short of their Nautilus range). Probably at least as popular is the PMC range of massive transmission line monitors, now these are put forward as ultra accurate and are used by a very large number of mastering suites and mixing houses alike:- Now I guarantee that anyone here hearing their favourite music played back on systems with this quality of speaker would say the result was anything but bland. Its startling in that it will show up any flaw in the production. Its is unflattering in that regard, but the fact is it is the best possible representation of the music (or right up there with the best possible). Why did I draw attention to my sig earlier? Becaus every single thing you hear is not 'the truth' as in unprocessed, untouched, pure. It is all processed, by the amps, the tone controls the fx, the mic, the preamp, the recording medium. In the last 50 years no music has been released without colouration of any kind. All music that is played live that involves any kind of amplification is processed. It is, in fact, all a lie. The point is, that doesnt matter at all. If the end result conveys the emotion that the artist is attempting to convey then its all win. No amount of processing is too much, if you like it that way, and its a bonus if some other people do to. Where I personally think things have gone wrong in the last 15 years is the overreliance on brick wall limiting to increase the RMS compared to the peak level. Everything sounds louder, but has less impact and is more tiring, and less musical as a result. And who drives this? Record company execs who are afraid to be quieter than the competition, bands who dont know better, you cant blame the mastering engineers, they are paid to do a job for a client, the client demands the ludest thing ever, and the result is a track with no life, no punch, that is useless to listen to anywhere but in a car. [/quote] Yes, all this about lies is true. Are you saying that you dislike the brick wall limiting because it flatters the track, sounds less like the original performance and is less good in those respects than if the limiting had been used more sparingly?

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1323013730' post='1458264'] IMO if it was possible to build a completely flat amplification system most of us would find the sound produced dull and bland. It's those "good" distortions that make our music sound pleasing. [/quote] Hooray, thanks for understanding! Listen to my example, 'Tighten Up'. Dull and bland. Of course, not completely flat etc, no-one is suggesting its possible, but sounds like an unamplified bass with flat strings.

[quote name='Mog' timestamp='1322611635' post='1453659'] Wheres the like button when you want it? [/quote][quote name='4000' timestamp='1322611582' post='1453657'] Often pros have less money to spend. [/quote] Especially if your a sax player

I'm not worrying at all, neither am I saying that anything in the train from string to ear is not altering the sound in some way. What I was asking was whether we have become so used to the sound of a bass moving away from its natural sound that we now no longer like the sound of our instrument unless its been enhanced in some way. (Back in the good ol' days there was at least as much experimentation and development of sound.)

No, the differences in recording format are too subtle, and the latest versions claim, at least, to be more like the original than ever. The basic sound of the electric bass guitar is easily heard if you pluck/strum it unplugged. With flat strings it sounds pretty much like the intro to Tighten Up. For a plectrum sound try "We've Got to Get Out of This Place' by The Animals One of the issues only touched on so far is the genre. For classical, jazz etc we want to hear the exact sounds of the instruments but in more popular music we get a processed. This may be because largely acoustic instruments are used in jazz or classical music whereas our basses are not acoustic instruments. Still, we have got used to a processed sound which is getting further from the sound a bass guitar makes with every step and, I would suggest, this is accelerating with the introduction of new technology. I wonder what we will be expecting a bass guitar to sound like in 10 years time?

Photos enhancement is a good analogy. We are being bombarded with flattering images of people in magazines that have been retouched, skin smoothed etc by digital processing. We're getting used to this and, for most celebrities, would expect it. This is the same principle, we don't like the look of the actual person, we prefer the enhanced version. I'm just wondering if this is the right direction for things. How would we feel when we could trust no image to be representative of the subject? For art, yes, lets play around, lets swirl the wet ink in a Polaroid, lets solarise colours etc. Muse's Hysteria is popular example, given earlier, of this on the bass. But I'm wondering whether we've developed away from the basic sound of a guitar and can accept nothing other than a processed version of it now. (Yes, its most definitely in the whole of (popular at least) music production. Regarding picking out the bass in modern music, firstly in most of pop (Radio 1 style) it'll be trying to pick out a synth sound from other synth sounds, secondly the button used is 'compression' - but, although related, that's another thread!)

Well, modern technology is certainly more capable of faithful representation but it seems to have taken us in a different direction. Compare the intro to Archie Bell and the Drells 'Tighten Up' to the intro to the intro to Love Games and, avoiding obvious effects on Hysteria and the like, give Marcus Miller's Blast a try. Love the sound but its only quite like a decent bass (with some zingy new strings). The rest is 'process', be it amp/speakers/pedals etc. This is what we've been used to and expect but its moved from the actual sound of a bass guitar. I know Tighten Up is clearly played on flat strings, but what you hear is pretty close to what they sound like.

So, it would appear we don't actually like the natural sound of a bass guitar! My question is whether this is because we've become so used to a heavily processed/coloured sound as opposed to basses sounding horrible to start with. Most generally dislike the way a synth bass sounds compared with a 'proper' bass (I know there are exceptions but I certainly do and not just on principle) but I wondered that we're heading in that direction with our stringed basses. Compare the sound of a bass in the 60s to what we expect from a modern bass sound. Have we moved from a more natural sound to one more flattering?

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1322847925' post='1456691'] Which do you prefer? Both are processed, just with different design goals. Every bass sound on record will be processed to some extent. Is a jazz bass a more natural sound of a bass than a p bass? Are my Seymour duncan pickups more natural than fender ones? [/quote] Kind of missing the point really, but yes, of course the Barefaced is coloured. And yes, very bass sound you hear is processed, that's closer to the point.

So we have to consider our musical instrument as the combination of a guitar, (pedals), amplifier and speaker system as a whole as we don't like the sound of the bass guitar part of it. The comparison to an upright is not fair as it is a different instrument, will sound, to my ears, magnificent as an upright and is usually recorded to as such. This despite its natural sound not necessarily optimised to 'cut through the mix' etc. We (most of us) play electric basses despite, it would appear, not liking their actual sound. I suppose we could say that they were not designed to be played unamplified, the pickups are magnetic and not microphonic after all, and they can only sound good if we process its sound. However with so much written about their subtleties in construction, materials, pickup design etc to minutely hone the basic sound its easy to be confused.

Another to recommend separate vocal rehearsals, even vocal warm ups together before gigs. How do you remember all those bass lines? Just learn them - no short cuts!

This thought started with a comparison of my present cabs with Barefaced cabs. I realise that my present cabs present a certain 'tone' whereas the Barefaced reproduce the actual bass guitar sound (assuming the amp is running flat etc) and this started me thinking about the sound we hear from electric bass guitars. I've always been happy with my cabs, sound great. But I now wonder if the sound has been engineered to be flattering and I (we) have become too used to this. Listen to the sound of a speech on the radio through a 'hi-fi' or car stereo. The voices are deep and bassy, sounding very impressive but actually not like someones natural voice. So when the music comes is this going to be a natural sound? Similarly, when I hear Mark King, Marcus Miller etc (both I greatly admire) these are not the natural sounds of an unplugged bass guitar. Should they be? If we listen to a recording of an upright we want it to sound like the original. Have we become so used to having the electric bass sound being processed that we now cannot stomach what it really sounds like? I certainly feel this with electric guitars which seem to be rarely played nowadays with a clean sound. Do we actually like the sound bass guitars make or to do we need the sugar coating to make them palatable?

Very interesting development indeed, yes a cost would be useful, and also let us know how you get on with it. Presumably it will be going into one of their standard boxes. How powerful is the power amp? Also, let us know about the 1x12, is it ported? What's it sound like. So many questions!!

Belated thanks both, just what I needed.

What's wrong with the original, geofio?

not sure about the 10 year girl thing but how about this one (whiz it on a bit if you want, it gets better): http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pZH2-rTp8Ug Not sure how much body building has been part of his life but I can't play like him.

It was the first one, but with an English commentary. Mush less irritating.

'Mazing!

Quest TV - now, how guitar strings are made The string thing has not been on yet (unless it came on when I went to the loo)

For all those who went to see VW in Romford a while back will remember this is exactly what he said. While he encouraged dong scales he also encouraged making a riff out them by playing with timing and making sure timing was spot on. For me timing is one of the most important things that differentiates between a 'professional' sound and an 'amateur' sound. I'm pretty sure Jamerson's technique wasn't that great (he only used one finger after all!) but I so wish I could even emulate his timing let alone have it for myself. Wooten encouraged practice of exercises but with timing, and musicality. This will defo make you a better bass player.

You'd only notice the 'sound' of cables if your previous cables were not working properly. Always worth experimenting, even if totally satisfied with things. Be inspired!

I was re-equilibrating at the time.