LawrenceH

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1337612419' post='1662752'] I should chip in here and say that although both use the same 12" drivers the Super12 is not simply the same as having two Midgets, the sound is different. Alex was at great pains to tell me that the way the two speakers 'couple' in the same cabinet on the Super 12 is what makes it, well... Super! It has the effect of altering the frequency response of the Eminence drivers and fills the little scoop in the low-mid, generating a flatter response than the Midget. This is probably what contributes to the Super12s reputation of being 'middy' I don't have any trouble getting really low synth bass frequencies out of mine at all, its just a really flat response so you can dial out what you don't like - instead of having to dial in what is missing [/quote] I'd guess from dims that the internal volume of the S12 is also slightly bigger than 2 midgets so you will get slightly more low extension that way too. As I said on another thread the 3012HO freq response makes it a great candidate driver for using in multiples, better than alone really.

[quote name='BottomE' timestamp='1337608481' post='1662655'] Seems to be 2 schools of thought here.[list] [*]Those that use the PA should pay for it [*]Everyone should pay for it [/list] I think after looking at all the posts... The singer is cool to get her own monitors - agreed. Why she doesn't have any in the first place is up for debate but hey ho its a decent offer. The guitarist is being a twat for expecting to own something (and use in an unrelated project) that we are all expected to pay for. He can Foxtrot Oscar on that. If we get a more powerful rig that all can use i'd be happy to pay my share. If they opt for a shinier newer version of what we already have then they can pay for it. I thank you [/quote] This sounds totally fair and reasonable to me!

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1337606722' post='1662613'] If your band has distorted vocals because you're using a cheap PA, that's a huge problem and will cost you gigs. If your bass sounds a little muddy because you're using a cheap amp, it's not ideal but it's far better than screwing the PA up. It's always joked about on here but there's an element of truth when people say that punters don't listen to the bass. There aren't a lot of people out there that will say "the bassist is only using an Ashdown Evo 300w? Nah, let's get someone else" compared to "whenever I see them the vocals are quiet and sound horrible, let's get someone else". [/quote] I'd agree that vox sound quality is probably the most important thing. But, the scenario I was referring to was comparing vocals only through PA versus the whole band. That's not the same as bad or good PA. A genuinely good quality PA for vocals alone is affordable for about £1000-£1500 now (coincidentally similar to what BottomE's rig cost). If you want to put a lot else through it and maintain the sound quality, that price probably trebles because of the extra engineering complexity required.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337601660' post='1662488'] Plus using an amp eqed for a different cab is like saying a line of shoes are no good because you tried someone else's pair that were a different size to you. [/quote] I'd agree - but it's worth noting that cabs with particularly uneven freq responses require complex EQ capabilities to alter usefully, which has several disadvantages. Overall I'd say the best cabs are either those with a fairly gently sloping profile that matches what you want, or else just pretty flat allowing you to tweak to taste with just a couple of well-chosen EQ points - where matching heads to cabs comes in. I myself like fairly flat cabs or with a slight upper-mid bias (not as extreme as the 3012HO).

Doing sound I have gone from mixed set-ups, through putting everything through the PA/monitors with absolutely minimal backline, through to a much more old-school set up with PA devoted largely to vocals/keys, and perhaps reinforcing drums where necessary. Which is best depends totally on the application and the musicians involved, so I respectfully disagree with Monckyman that it'd necessarily sound 'mediocre'. It can, but if people have decent amps/cabs and know how to control their volume/dispersion there are a lot of clarity benefits to restricting what goes into the PA, especially with cheaper/mid-priced speakers (eg typical Mackies, JBLs). I think the people who're arguing that a PA makes the band sound better even if just for vox are ignoring the point that a good bass amp/cab also makes the band sound better, and also costs a lot of money. If you want to put that money into a small/cheap combo for stage monitoring and the rest to PA, that's a different solution - maybe a better one but that depends on how much you as an individual prioritise that band over anything else musical you may be doing.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1337353611' post='1658718'] In terms of volume I could probably get away with a 110 but tone is the deciding factor. Several years ago I did suggest that Alex made a high quality 2x8 for small acoustic type gigs. I'd be very interested in one of those. [/quote] There is a long-throw neo PA driver made by Faital that is getting a lot of interest in the DIY community, the 8PR200, and the person behind the fEarful cabs in the US has commercialised 1x8 and 2x8 designs using this called the Crazy8. Apparently this has a very nicely integrated tweeter such that it does a good job on PA/monitor as well - sounds like it might suit your application well? There is a fibreglass(? I think) composite version available which should make it incredibly light too. I thought about using this driver for DIY but decided a pair of 10s would suit me better for the slightly bigger gigs, was a tough choice though and I still might make an ultra-compact 20 litre 1x8 when funds and time allow. B&C also have an 8" neo driver that should be a good one, and Celestion have previewed one for bass guitar that wouldn't be quite so powerful/clean but would be the lightest weight of the lot. I assume they're making these because someone wants them, so I wonder if the market's about to be flooded with high spec 8"-based designs?! Btw if you don't like the Midget I wouldn't tar all Alex's designs with the same tonal brush... that particular speaker in that small a box is going to be very toppy and bass-light unless you EQ heavily (which it's able to take if you've got the power) but something like the Big Baby would be a lot smoother and deeper, even the Compact will sound more even.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337558531' post='1662078'] Which SVT driver are you thinking of? They've used loads, but the original CTS and the Eminence B810 that is supposed to cop its tone are the ones that made the mark, with plenty of quitary top. There nasty low mids and nothing else period I have noted somewhere where they used high power handling drivers with no top. I was going to do 2x10s that were a single section of the 8x10, but then I realised I'd just invented the guitar cab. [/quote] Hmm, I'm not sure which drivers I'd have heard but the graph for a single Legend B810 matches well with what my ears hear when there's 8 of them http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Legend_B810.pdf It's already strong in the low mids (maximal ~150-300Hz) and shy in the upper mids, stick 8 together in a sealed box and you're really going to accentuate that as they sum coherently until around 500 or so then start combing above, which will roughly translate to a freq response heavily skewed to the low mids. Can't find a definitive graph but there's one from a Line 6 model on Greenboy's website showing a freq response that rolls downhill all the way from a few hundred Hz, you may have to be logged in to see the thread but it's there on google image search if you're interested. Incidentally, for a more modern application, the Kappalite 3012HO is actually a great driver for using in multiples as it has a gently rising response all the way from ~300Hz - think this is what's in the BF Super 12? A couple of them stacked up would work very well. Or there's the 18Sound 10NMB420, which is pretty much perfect for this application and 16ohm to boot. That's definitely be my driver of choice for a pair of loud stacked 210s. http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=274

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1337547543' post='1661887'] Have to rejig things because with half the speakers doing midrange, they need to be doing it twice as loud as before they were split on axis, but its more consistent as you head off axis, needs a whole redesign to get a flat cab, or eqing to suit. [/quote] This raises a related issue which people often seem to overlook in more conventional cabs, the 'ideal' driver for say a 1x10 or 2x10 would have a very different freq profile to that for an 8x10, for a given goal. I personally really don't like the low mid hump that an Ampeg fridge develops because of this and would favour a high sensitivity upper mid-biased driver in that application, that on its own would sound thin. [quote name='bertbass' timestamp='1337554435' post='1662027'] Actually it's quite easy to check the science for yourself, just go for a wander round the venue with a transmitter or extra long lead during a sound check and hear the difference in sound/ tone from stage to audience. [/quote] Or just listen to any guitarist through a 4x12 from the side and then from the front and get slayed by the beam of death! It's so easy to hear on guitar... but if you do sound for other bands you find it quickly becomes an issue for bass guitar as well. I'm actually a bit suprised this thread is still going, thought it had totally been done to death! It's nice to see a bit more application-specific logic being applied though, rather than just saying 'vertical stack, always!'. I've played [EDIT - and engineered] plenty of gigs where vertical dispersion is more of an issue than horizontal

It's more complicated than absolute volume - take a hypothetical bi-amped rig with SINGLE large driver for the low end that's capable of moving the same amount of air as an 8x10 (ie total amount of energy that converts to sound is the same), EQ it to the same notional 1w/1m response as the 8x10 and then put it side by side with the same 8x10. Stand 3 metres away like on a biggish stage. It will sound different. The 8x10s will have a much narrower vertical dispersion - at 'medium' distances from the cab it will sound way louder at certain frequencies because the same energy is projecting into a narrower band. Your head will also be a bit closer to the source than the single low speaker if it's on the floor (with mids from a separate driver above). The other thing is that without the EQ, the 8x10 will likely be way more tilted towards the lower mids than a typical single larger driver. Speaker outputs are only additive up to frequencies dictated by driver spacings, above which it starts doing all sorts of crazy combing. Anyway, none of this stuff is capable of producing really big true bass, only BIG PA subs will do that! I suspect even 10 metres away the PA subs the OP talked about would contribute significantly. But actually for most gigs I personally prefer the tonal profile of a smaller rig

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337014158' post='1654026'] Think I might get a quote from these guys.....to strip the chrome then nickel plate [url="http://www.ashfordchroming.com/dechroming"]http://www.ashfordch....com/dechroming[/url] will report back... [/quote] Good luck! I still think there's a good chance your parts will be nickel-chrome plated so might be worth asking their opinion on this too, potentially save you the cost of replating

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337012683' post='1653983'] So I shouldn't be believing this?: [url="http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_7614546_remove-chrome-nickel-plating.html"]http://www.ehow.co.u...el-plating.html[/url] [/quote] It will probably work if it's chrome-effect paint like you'd get on plastic. But not on proper electroplating

So I probably haven't been very helpful, sorry! But having thought about it I am also sceptical that an organic solvent like acetone would dissolve chrome (or nickel) plating. In fact I'm pretty sure I've used acetone to clean hardware before without dissolving anything other than the grease I wanted to get rid of.

Hmm the babicz bridge is aluminium apparently... not a good idea to mix with the acid (bang!), though IF it is nickel plated underneath it MIGHT still be ok. If I was going to try this, I'd use a small amount of diluted acid solution on an inconspicuous part of the bridge first and rinse very thoroughly when done. There may be other chemical strippers for aluminium that'll leave behind any nickel layer. Replating aluminium is probably more complicated than brass though so I wouldn't do it unless you know it's nickel underneath already. Maybe easier just to trade with someone who has a nickel version?

[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1337010889' post='1653942'] Is there nickel under the chrome? [/quote] Typically yes. Whether there is for your particular hardware though, is worth checking!

Markbass amps are internally switchable, and probably quite a few others as well. The cynic in me thinks this is probably about limiting the number of people buying kit from countries where it's cheaper.

It's not something I've done, but shouldn't muriatic acid strip the chrome and leave the nickel plate that's already on there?

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1336903482' post='1652444'] Why not use the volume control on the FOH for your amp, for the FOH mix, leave the volume on your amp at the levels you need for on-stage monitoring, and additionally leave the vocal monitors for vocals only? [/quote] Typically it's the directional higher frequencies which you need for monitoring, but then are too loud for the overall mix. Setting up your rig so these are firing straight at your ears but not necessarily out towards the front can save a lot of mix problems.

BRX - I had to change how I strung slightly moving from Ibanex/Yamaha to Fenders in order to get the strings to wrap ok, but I don't have any tuning stability issues, certainly nothing like +/- 20 cents! That sounds like something was wrong to me. But actually I really prefer the feel of the E string in particular on a Fender to how it was on my other basses. It was very noticeable when I first changed, so to me whether it's poorly designed is moot, subjectively it feels better. Anyway I still reckon compliance could be a likely source of possible difference if there is one at all. Also I suppose strings provide a certain amount of damping to each other in terms of neck vibrations? Certainly adds a bit more mass, though it seems like that'd be pretty marginal to me. What about position on the neck in relation to centre of mass/rigidity? There are several things that [i]could[/i] make a difference, whether they do or not I've no idea, I'm no five-stringer! BB's experience is pretty interesting though

Can you get class D car amps that are any good yet? That will surely help a lot with the battery life.

I didn't mention dispersion but that is absolutely the best reason to choose smaller drivers and/or vertical stacking which have other significant compromises in terms of cost and weight. But even with dispersion it isn't a panacea, since vertical stacking reduces spread in the vertical plane. On a lot of tight stages unless your stack is right up to ear-height then doing it that way means you don't hear as much since you're still above your speakers which are now firing less at your ears than ever. A single driver on a tilted stand can be a better solution. Some people (including anyone who gigs a Jack) don't really need much above 1k in their sound anyway, so for them it's not an issue. The dispersion is IMO much more of a regular problem with guitarists using 12" drivers because there's so much more going on at the higher frequencies and there's a real beam of death from their cabs. Incidentally I think Alex C got into speaker building through an interest in extended range bass stuff, no?

There is one difference between E strings on a 'typical' 4 string versus 5, and that's the amount of string that sits behind the nut, often at a pretty shallow angle which could affect the string's compliance. A B string pushes the E one peg further up on a Fender-style headstock.

JTUK makes a fair point. There is a lot of 'myth debunking' online from people looking at things from an engineering perspective, and theoretically things like '10" drivers don't have a particular sound' are perfectly true. Thing is, once an idea has taken hold or a brand has established a dominant position, then a generalisation whilst not totally true can still be pretty useful. I still reckon a 'typical' 15" cab and a 'typical' multiple 10"-loaded cab will have a particular sound just because they are designed around relatively few drivers to conform to market stereotypes. Yes, there are cabs out there that are exceptions, and these are becoming more common, but the trends are still there. Another thing that's often overemphasised is the 'requirement' for long-excursion woofers. A lot of the interest amongst the bass-playing community originally came from people who were into Extended Range Bass - unusually low tuned instruments which typically have active EQ providing significant amounts of boost at VERY low frequencies. A world away from the typical tones of a passive P or J. Most of us have gigged or heard effing loud, great sounding mixed rigs where the speakers only have 2mm xmax. Not many people who sing the praises of the BFM jacks seem to realise that the bottom couple of octaves on these cabs, ie where excursion plays a significant role, basically behave like a typical reflex box! The horn loading only extends down to the low-mids, THAT'S where the volume increase is. Those sound of those cabs is subjectively nice on certain bass sounds, but they get their volume boost at the expense of any evenness in the frequency response. There is a massive hole between 1 and 2k in those cabs. Furthermore if you look at the port size then you realise that it's not even designed with really high excursion true bass in mind. The final thing is the mixing cabs - phase matching etc. If you can hear this, then good on you, but really these frequencies are not that big contributors to your tone and room acoustics will often dominate. I say all this as someone with 4 BFM Jack 10s, and who's just finished building a pair of speakers based around long-excursion 10" neo drivers! The advantages Alex and others talk about are all engineering facts, but they really apply more when you want to push the envelope on portability or frequency response, otherwise older designs are more than adequate.

Dennis Rollins is absolutely one of the best performers I've seen, worth more than the ticket price just to see him and his band! I hope you raise a good amount from this, best of luck.

To the OP, try just tilting the top cab back if you can find a wedge of foam or similar to support it, so it's firing more at your ears! I think this is the second time today I've suggested this, but it's a cheaper than actual chips solution.

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1336684329' post='1649612'] I agree with that. But then again the OP video is just a Jam. Garry [/quote] I don't agree, because unlike the Clutterbuck stuff it is funky throughout. Just good tight groove that happens to involve quite fast playing. I guess it boils down to whether you like that particular off-shoot of jazz-funk (jazz's deformed cousin). He's a funny one to me - I don't really like any of the recorded stuff I've heard but I love some of his more off-the-cuff jams.