LawrenceH

My feeling is that if you really know a tone well, then the bass absolutely has to have the right pickup in the right spot to nail it for you. 'Ballpark' can be achieved with most 2-pup basses (my jazz does a fairly passable 'ray impression if I roll off the tone, solo the back pickup and play in the right place). From what you say, the jazz tone is the one to sacrifice as the 'p' and to a lesser extent 'ray have to be right. Is the MM pickup position compatible with the P position? If so, I'd say get a roadworn/classic P routed for a MM pickup with switchable pre. If not, you have a problem and have to sacrifice one or the other.

[quote name='umph' post='1149367' date='Mar 4 2011, 12:12 PM']you can blow speakers with pops? speakers can handle thousands of watts for a fraction of a second without going poof. If the speaker was going to go it would've gone while they were playing it.[/quote] You'd never blow a woofer like that, but I think you can wipe out a compression driver - pretty sure I've seen/heard that happen with PA cabs

[quote name='Doddy' post='1149724' date='Mar 4 2011, 05:58 PM']For those of you that care,everything I know was learned by either doing it on a gig or by sucking on a gig and realising that I need to learn more if I want to get rehired.[/quote] That's exactly it though - you learn with your ears, and that's what tells you you suck! Theory involving notation and chord/key names is a great shortcut to helping make sense of what you're hearing, narrowing down the options. I just think that for some people that kind of academic approach becomes a real barrier to participation in something where they could actually engage with it on terms that don't require that degree of abstraction. I think my perspective is informed by my wife's experience as an anthropologist dealing with very different cultures to ours. My 'proper' job is as a research scientist and so I'm very used to the type of logical abstraction involved in academia and general theory. But we forget that this is a particular, culturally-informed system and there are alternatives which are effective although they articulate the issues very differently at first glance. Perfect pitch is an interesting extreme example of where the brain itself approaches a problem in a completely different way (why don't we all have this ability? Probably because it confers serious disadvantages compared to one prioritising relative pattern spotting). Neurologically speaking if you actually analyse the process of learning itself it's clear that different approaches to what is ostensibly the same complex problem require different mental strengths. It makes sense for an individual to play to theirs, and also that some people's approaches will appear completely incomprehensible to certain others. As a final point you do seem to place a lot of importance on reading chord charts. Obviously, that's crucial for what you do and is fair enough, but would be of little use if those around you are employing a different system, which is fairly common when talking globally. You talk about thinking in shapes rather than notes, whereas as an analytical system I'd say it can be entirely equivalent knowing the sound of a note as a position in a shape or as a name within a scale. The difference in the two systems is that one involves a visual and the other a linguistic semiosis, the only important things are whether you have a firm grasp of the link between sound and its representation in whatever system is being employed, and to a lesser extent which system those around you are employing. For instance, I have to rely entirely on my ear or visual cues whenever I play with anyone who uses tab!

[quote name='Doddy' post='1149115' date='Mar 4 2011, 12:22 AM']It was Me and Bilbo that made the comments about it being unconscious. What I said wasn't arrogant at all. If you have an understanding of what you are doing you are more likely to eliminate the pure trial and error than a player that doesn't.[/quote] It's extremely disingenuous to suggest that a player who doesn't have formal theoretical training lacks understanding of what they're doing. I don't think anyone's denying that musical theory can be and often is very useful but you do have to remember not everyone learns the same way. For some people forcing them to translate between the music they hear and the spoken word is just off-putting and unnatural. From a selfish point of view I'd love it if formal academic faculty equated to talent in all spheres, but like it or not, it doesn't. Think about sports with a tactical element. Plenty of players with great tactical acumen and 'vision' sound frankly less than smart when you hear them speak about their sport. Likewise I don't need training in calculus to cross a busy road or intercept a moving ball, despite the fact my brain is dealing with complex rates of change calculations. It sounds silly but the point I'm trying to make is that understanding is one thing, but articulating it requires a separate skill set based around linguistic or mathematical ability to analogise. The idea that 'those who can, do and those who can't, teach' is very trite and unfair and music is a subject where teaching is far more integrated than most - but I think it's fair to say teachnig (ie analysis and re-articulation) is a very different skill to doing. A decent 'natural' (ie non-thoery) musician is absolutely fine at analysis but just doesn't bother with the re-articulation. These people are rare but by the same token it's rare to find the absolute best theorists among the top rank of performers.

The pickup placement isn't 70s. The neck clearly isn't 70s. The Corona plate very very clearly isn't 70s. I feel sorry for the bidder there, they've been conned.

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FENDER-JAZZ-BASS-/250782490823?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3a63cd20c7"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FENDER-JAZZ-BASS-/25...=item3a63cd20c7[/url] To be fair it's possible the strat-style knobs are genuine late 70s...but that's about it

[quote name='icastle' post='1147794' date='Mar 2 2011, 10:30 PM']As musicians we communicate through music. Someone who cannot grasp the what the name of the chord they are playing is called is destined to be a solo artist.[/quote] The language of music is the music though, not the names we ascribe to aspects of it. I find music theory really interesting but someone can be such a complete ear player that while they're fluent in the language of music, they're unable to speak in English/(Italian) about what they're doing. That's only a problem when the direct communication through the music fails. It's interesting to remember that most of the rules which define something like formal harmony or, say, sonata form (or bebop for that matter) were defined after lots of the music that exemplifies it was written/recorded. I don't like it when people are anti-theory but at the same time I do respect people who obviously have an aural understanding of what they're doing even if they can't put it into words. Just a bit annoying when my ears can't keep up with them or if I think their ears are letting them down and there's no handy way of explaining it to them!

Have a look at [topic="121455"]this thread[/topic] and the included links for info on stripping, among other things, a classic series. Ash does have a stronger, coarser grain than alder but I think alder can look perfectly fine with a natural finish, I quite like the colour when varnished especially once it's aged! The pattern under the sunburst will tell you what the grain pattern's like. Btw it's much easier doing a decent natural finish than the solid colour I went for!

[quote name='hhoward' post='1144111' date='Feb 28 2011, 03:25 AM']but if anyone out they has Sennheiser HP280 pro's and and Alesis M1 MkII's for sale PLEASE let me know, maybe then i can get both[/quote] I'd suggest you have a look at these articles: [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/articles/mixingheadphones.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/arti...gheadphones.htm[/url] [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/articles/studioheadphones.htm"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/arti...oheadphones.htm[/url] [url="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/articles/sennheiserhd600.asp"]http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/arti...heiserhd600.asp[/url] Note what they say about open/semi-open v closed back - although the HD280s are rated highly as 'best budget closed-back' they may not be as good a choice as an equivalent-priced Sennheiser open-back design for studio-based mixing. Unfortunately they don't have any budget open-backed models in the test, I've included the link to the HD600 and I think there's also an updated 650 version, but these may be a bit expensive - maybe check out the 595s/598s? These last two I haven't heard personally but I'd expect them to be more natural than the 280s. Btw the other nice thing about open-backed headphones compared to closed that I've found, is that they tend to be comfier when worn for long periods.

Oh yes, and I can hear more detail in a mix on the Sennheiser HD280s than on the Alesis M1s, but I wouldn't trust the bass end mixed on either!

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1143185' date='Feb 27 2011, 12:05 PM']Yes but so do speakers.[/quote] Yes, this is the point - ALL cheap stuff sounds very obviously different because it all colours the sound in different ways as each manufacturer chooses a different set of compromises. As you start to get more expensive, the sounds start to converge as the colourations become less noticeable and they get closer to 'flat clean' response. The key difference between headphones and speakers is that the price-point at which you start to notice this convergence is a lot lower for the 'phones than the speakers! FWIW I have the Alesis M1 MkIIs, and I also chose them over a lot of other reference monitors after auditioning them as Dannybuoy did. They were sonically closest in character to the £600 Genelecs, and fairly detailed sound. However they have a more smeared bass end than the Genelecs and the Genelecs are even more detailed. The Genelecs weren't even the best speakers there. If you spend £150 on well-chosen headphones you will get a 'truer' representation of the music than similarly priced monitors, other than the stereo imaging (but that to me is not such an issue since at least half the time people are listening on headphones anyway these days). Open or closed back headphones: the open let the sound out both sides, the closed have a sealed cup around the ear. The open 'phones give a clearer, less distorted bass response and are what I'd choose to mix on except in situations where you absolutely have to block out external noise or prevent too much sound leaking out of the 'phones'. This is why people use things like the HD25s, they're good all-round mix headphones for live use as they block out a decent amount of the outside sound and have a fairly detailed midrange. But they're not as good for the studio as a decent open design. Whatever you use to mix on, you have to get used to how it sounds and how the mixes translate to other systems - use commercial tracks that you know well as a reference.

[quote name='Paul S' post='1140990' date='Feb 25 2011, 11:21 AM']Thanks for that Lawrence - it doesn't surprise me that the P-Lyte isn't much of an improvement - if at all. I am certainly enjoying the Bass Collection a lot. Just out of curiosity what did you do to upgrade the electrics? Mine is (I think) the B-310, so not the high end of the spectrum.[/quote] I didn't, I bought a 330 which has the soapbars and an active/passive switch and just run it passive! But if I was going to upgrade the 310 I'd go for EMGs and make it growl!

Pickups and it will sound like a whole new bass. Then a fret dress and it'll feel like one too!

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='1142871' date='Feb 26 2011, 10:46 PM']Mae sure and use really good masking tape.Tamiya gets my vote.[/quote] Yup. Also, depending on the feasibility with a particular design spray the colour you want as a background first once the tape's in place, then the top colour. The first colour plugs the gaps and helps keep the edge lines clean.

I'm with Phil, give it a go. Yes, a true horn-loaded or bandpass sub will have a lot more bass than a typical 4x10 bass cab, but in the real-world I've used a pair of 1x12" bass cabs as emergency makeshift subs in the past exactly for kick reinforcement and they did a very useful job of fattening the sound up. And in my very first band we used to just chuck a mic in the kick drum and run it through the spare channel on a trace V-type through a 4x12 combo and it was phat city.

The guys over at sound on sound have suggested that headphones are actually often a better way to go than cheaper monitors in a space that's non-optimal and from my experience I agree. I have the HD280 pros and they're ok (great for live mixing and tracking duties because they attenuate outside sound so effectively), but for reference mixing I'd get an open-backed design as the bass never sounds 'right' on closed-back 'phones. I like Sennheisers but at the high end of the market Sony and Beyer also have some good options - not the DT100s though! 150s maybe? FWIW when I auditioned a load of budget/mid-priced monitors in an acoustically treated fairly flat/neutral room I was surprised how much variation there was between different models at the lower end of the market. I'd say you have to spend at least £500 before things start to get more uniform and transparent, and then you still have the problem of the room you're mixing in needing to be optimised. A £150 set of open-backed headphones will comfortably outperform any monitors of equivalent price, with the caveat that you have to be aware of binaural effects versus widefield stereo.

I think it's a fair point for discussion - it boils down to what constitutes great tone. For me, it's whatever conveys the music and it has as much if not more to do with the balance of a mix, as how it sounds in isolation. But. If you're a dedicated follower of a particular fashion your ideas of what 'tone' is about will be fixed within a style of arranging and production. My grandad hated all pop music because after years of classical music his ears could never adjust to the continual sound of drums being so high in the mix and that was all he heard. If you get beyond that then there are so many tones that 'work' in a given context. Personally, I love the deep, dead p sound of Deacon's Queen parts, I love Bernie Edward's 'ray driving the funk, I love Larry Graham's 2-pup 60s jazz bark, and loads more that are each totally different. Jaco's burpy tone on something like the Chicken live on Invitation is perfect for that song and that part. A bassier, less articulate sound would lose the expressive, percussive rhythm of the part. But if you asked him to play with that tone instead, he'd probably also have altered what he played accordingly to make it work a different way.

[quote name='Paul S' post='1139962' date='Feb 24 2011, 01:51 PM']I recently bought an SGC Nanyo Bass Collection and have found it exceptionally comfortable to wear and play. More so than any of my other basses. Strangely, given that the rest of the band rarely notice anything, they all commented on how cool it looks (black with green DR Neons - just proves they have eyes, I suppose... ) but also how good it sounds. I have had slight GAS for a Fender P-Lyte bass for a while now but, on paper at least, they seem to tick many of the same boxes in that they are lightweight, skinny neck, P/J pup configuration, MIJ and decent quality. But the SGC Nanyo cost me probably half what P-Lyte would have. Has anyone owned or played both to give a comparison?[/quote] I own a couple of SGC Nanyos and once borrowed a P Lyte for a period of time. The P Lyte probably wasn't a great example as it had a bad twist in the neck which affected its playability. But I certainly didn't think anything else about it made up for this deficiency compared to the SGCs! Tonally or otherwise. Depending on which Bass Collection you have though, I reckon it would benefit from better electronics. The P/Js on the SB300/310/320 haven't blown me away (though the soapbars on the SB330 are IMO good), also I personally find the pre-amp treble to be set to too high a frequency and it's a bit noisy. But the P Lyte was no better in any of these.

[quote name='tomb' post='1137995' date='Feb 23 2011, 12:49 AM']im just looking in the local auction sites and there arent many basses for sale there, ebay would eat my soul on customs when it arrives here[/quote] Problem with the budget end of the market is that while you'll find lots that play well they're really variable in quality control. You'll get a lot of different recommendations and they'll all have their merits, but for a beginner I reckon Yamaha are a very safe option. I'd have a look for a secondhand RBX374. It's not the same as any of the basses played by Flea, Claypool etc but it has IMO the best 'modern'-sounding pickups I've heard on a budget bass and is versatile enough to get you in the right ballpark. And, importantly, Yamaha build quality is usually pretty reliable so you're less likely to get a bad one!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1137850' date='Feb 22 2011, 10:30 PM']Oh No what have I let myself in for?! [/quote] You're fooked, mate!

[quote name='algmusic' post='1137936' date='Feb 22 2011, 11:35 PM']I agree on the getting two 2x10's but I'd have to disagree on the mismatch as he said he had everything on full... in a rock setting that's I've done the same thing, the the LM2 and the same 2x10, at moderate levels, it's fine at higher levels, it sounds wierd.[/quote] For sure, but I doubt it would make a noticeable difference if the speakers were rated at 250 watts each rather than 200. Comes back to the same old point that watts ratings aren't all that useful for assessing a bass cab. Cut the bass and you'll be able to bump up the volume - that's why I said it depends what you are asking it to do, and why Mr Foxen talks about shifting air for a chunky sound. Doesn't matter really, the OP's getting a 4x10 and that should do the trick!

Don't want to sound like a dick but when you say recorded direct into your desk do you mean via a DI? Because if not, the passive Fender is probably going to be impedence mismatched and sound like crap! For a proper 'fair' comparison you need a really high impedence input (more than you get on typical desk line inputs) or to use a DI - you may well have done this, I'd be interested to know because I have a J-Retro lying around that I got in a trade and have never fitted.

[quote name='algmusic' post='1136972' date='Feb 22 2011, 12:31 PM']Yep the guy in the shop is an idiot..[/quote] Hardly...the mismatch isn't very significant from the point of view of thermal handling until you really start running hard, probably with a compressor, and you should hear it coming unless you're using distortion anyway. The continuous power handling of those B&C drivers is specced at double the rms rating because music signal is typically less demanding. Whether the cab is loud enough depends what you're asking it to do, sounds like it isn't in this case. To echo what Mr Foxen has said, any thermal cut-off is going to be in the amp, not the cab (with the possible exception of a lightbulb on the tweeter). If you're running the amp hard enough to run it into thermal shutdown then you might endanger your speakers and would probably be best getting a pair of 8ohm 2x10s or a single 4x10.

Tbh the main thing I'd try for if I had the choice would a courier that doesn't use parcel force at the UK end - that's where things have got complicated for me in the past, though I've never actually lost anything! Those quotes do seem pretty high though even for full insurance.

[quote name='JTUK' post='1134016' date='Feb 20 2011, 07:54 AM']Others just want a project.[/quote] I wouldn't really count a neck shim as a mod or a project (and it's something you find on plenty of Fenders), it's just a potential part of a set-up in my book and it doesn't cost anything at all. If I WAS buying one of these as a project bass though, the main thing that would matter to me would be the acoustic tone. I know some people don't believe the wood has a significant effect, but I've yet to hear a basswood instrument that growls like ash or alder can (not necessarily always does though). At least these are made of nominally the 'right' woods, there are probably some that resonate reasonably. Also, maybe I've been lucky but I've played a fair few cheap basses and I've never had problems with tuners. The only bass thats had any issue was a Jap Fender and that was solved by just taking the offending tuner apart and putting it back together again. I actually like the cheaper Fender tuners as they're considerably lighter than the brass(?) ones so you get less neck dive! One thing that puzzles me about people's attitude to basses is their understanding of quality control; some people seem to equate it with quality. If I buy resistors with a 10% tolerance and more expensive versions at 5%, then while on average the latter will be closer to the nominal resistor value, any pair of individual resistors from either batch with an identical measured resistance will perform identically. Bass-wise I did try several Fender VMJs at one point and the QC on those was very variable. I couldn't find any that I was happy with off the shelf but have seen several other people's who were obviously luckier and those good examples have simply monstrous tone and play fantastically. Much better than the more consistent, presumably more stringent QC Classic Vibes which have a much higher rep despite sounding pretty flat/dull to my ears. I'd take a punt on a Ryder if I had the time/space for a project P - it's just such a cheap platform, it's got a couple of desirable features (wood, string-through) and I've got enough Fender parts, pots etc lying around off my jazzers that if there was anything drastically wrong I could replace without it costing extra. The only bit that I'd change for money would be the pickup, but then I'd do this on most Mex or Jap basses and my base cost would be £300 or so higher. Plus the Ryder ones do look very cool in a funny kind of way!