LawrenceH

[quote name='Rachel' post='839520' date='May 17 2010, 09:31 AM']It's lighter than what I'm using at the moment, so that's good! ... unless that Dr BAss one has a major plus point that I haven't considered (apart from the price, obv!)...[/quote] It is over 20lb lighter thanks to the neodymium speakers, and the 8" should give it a beautiful clear mid-range that projects well (caveat - I've not actually heard it! They're more common in the states, but I believe they're well-designed), and the attenuators on the crossover add versatility. Plus it's 8 ohms which gives the option of an extension cab at a later date, whereas the Eden gives you 400w max power handling and that's 4 ohms so you're stuck with it unless you get a 2ohm-capable amp. Having said that, the Eden will sound nice and do a decent job - well-respected brand as you say, so will be easier to shift in future, and that's also up at a good price. I've heard of a few dying when pushed hard with lots of low-end though, but that's not unique to Eden even among higher-end manufacturers! (Don't trust watts ratings over what your ears tell you)

Two separate smaller cabs would definitely be my preference, perhaps ideally a 1x15" and a 2X10", a very standard set-up. Don't get too worried about individual driver sizes, except to note that whichever configuration you go for you want a decent overall driver surface area, and you want it to fit in your car. Of course, a 4x10 will do the same job as two separate 2x10s that took up the same amount of room overall and used the equivalent drivers - but you don't have to use both for every gig, it's easier to move two small boxes than one big one, and you can stack them in a tall thin line on stage which does have performance advantages (a square is a rubbish way of arranging speaker drivers). Secondhand is definitely the way to get more for your money. I'd say those SWR would give you a good, full, versatile rock tone. But go and try some kit out - maybe some people on here who're near you would be willing to help out in that regard, I've found basschat a helpful place. Perhaps buy a single 8ohm cab to start with (say, 1x15" Barefaced Compact. About as loud and deep a 15" cab as you'll find on the market, and light weight too), with the intention of adding to it if you find it necessary and funds allow. Be wary of trying cabs at low volume. They may sound nice when they're quiet but totally run out of extension at gig volume. Compacts pop up in the used section on here. Or this: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=85827"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=85827[/url] Which is a steal of a price because the brand isn't that well known...but it will be a LOT better than anything new close to that price.

[quote name='Musicman20' post='838806' date='May 16 2010, 12:58 PM']I wouldnt worry about the specs so much. I used to own a Peavey 4x10 and they do push some air, but they arent that great IMO.[/quote] This. There are meaningful specs, but most cabs don't come with them. Frequency response quoted from manufacturers is usually useless, and watts power handling is also of very limited use in bass applications. Hearing the cabs at volume is the way forward. If that's not possible, then researching the actual loudspeaker drivers loaded into cabs is much more informative but requires a rather geeky mindset and is time-consuming. Fortunately for you, there are plenty of people here who've done the work for you and the more experienced people's suggestions will all be competent performers rather than mutton dressed as lamb. The issue then is what kind of sound you're after - what genre(s) of music do you play and are there any famous players/records whose sound is close to what you're after from your musicman? EDIT: Plus, how are you sorted for roadies and vans? Is weight/size an issue?

I wouldn't worry too much about buying Behringer these days...I've had PA kit fail from Mackie, JBL, QSC and Soundcraft, all supposedly much more reliable, and Behringer's amp range are actually developing quite a good reputation at the budget end of the market. The fact that they're a big company with lots of UK distributors can work in your favour with warranty repairs. Nothing that cheap is 100% reliable no matter what company it's from, and at least it's not esoteric.

Faithless is right of course, and I'd also agree that noisy FX in general aren't the answer... BUT... a sound engineering trick I found worked every time was the optical compression option on an Aphex aural exciter (the 'big bottom' function). This was excellent at squeezing maximum fatness out of a given system, either as an insert on bass or across the whole mix. Great for totally shoddy inadequate bass bins, but also good even on a decent rig for filling out the sound. A useful alternative to upgrading an entire amp/speaker system and potentially sacrificing portability. I think they put it in a pedal for bassists, dunno if Behringer or someone does a cut-price knock-off version?

I have tried one in Edinburgh...FWIW I thought it was very well finished, much better than the Squiers and standard Mex. It was light weight too and the neck was the nicest I've ever played on a jazz. I can't comment on the tone as I only tried through the shop amps at low volume.

[quote name='flyfisher' post='833381' date='May 10 2010, 06:23 PM']It's an interesting idea - I'd not heard of applying different effects to different frequencies and mixing the result back. I wonder if anyone has ever bothered to wire each string pick-up separately, which would allow different effects to be applied to each string. Not sure I could get my head around all the options and possibilities that would allow. Mind you, I don't use any effects anyway so a single pedal would probably confuse me. [/quote] I'm pretty sure the grateful dead did that, as did Paul Jackson of the Headhunters. (scoots off on the internet). Yup, [url="http://pauljacksonbass.com/geraldine.html"]http://pauljacksonbass.com/geraldine.html[/url]

[quote name='parker_muse' post='832141' date='May 9 2010, 01:08 PM']I've not removed it - i'll do that now and give it a go.[/quote] To be honest I wouldn't bother 'til it's fixed, in case it affects your warranty (it shouldn't but some music store people don't realise that). If it keeps cutting out now, it suggests a component that is already on its last legs. It may have been caused by thermal stresses in the past. So, assuming it's possible with these Superfly heads, I'd get it repaired under warranty and then when you get it back take it out of the case. Maybe even mod it for fan cooling.

[quote name='parker_muse' post='832127' date='May 9 2010, 01:00 PM']Well it's broken down again. Ashdown haven't replied yet so i'll call them tomorrow.[/quote] This is a tangential point that's unlikely to solve your problem here but may help in future if you get it fixed. Have you removed the superfly from the outer casing? Supposedly this aids the cooling thanks to a design flaw. Hot components leads to unreliability. Good luck getting it sorted!

[quote name='Eight' post='832121' date='May 9 2010, 12:53 PM']This question probably makes me look even dumber (but hey, if you've been on this forum for a while then you've seen me make stupider posts)... I'm currently using a Warwick Pro Fet 5.2 and a Barefaced Compact. The Fet is 500W @ 4ohm (so maybe around 300W into the 8ohm Compact). I often see posts about getting another 8ohm cab to get the most out of an amp... but if I did where would I plug it in??? The amp has a 1 x speakon (I think) port marked "500W@4ohm Min" and 1 x standard jack "Speaker" output. I'm probably misunderstanding but presumably you can't plug an 8ohm cab into the speakon??? So can this amp only take one cab then??? Or am I missing the vital piece of information all other bass players know? [/quote] Does the Compact not have a pair of speakons then? If so, daisy-chain from that, it'll be parallel. If not (why not? Grr) then just use the speaker out jack, it'll be parallel with the speakon and with an 8 ohm cab will give you 4 ohms total load. The amp doesn't care which way round you connect the speakers as long as it's a parallel connection it's electrically identical, the speakon is just a better socket design than a jack.

Every cheap Ibanez I've tried has been easy to play and well set-up. Yamaha are also very reliable in terms of quality control, and in my opinion have the edge in terms of pickups in the mid-range models.

The Deltalite 2512 has a very high Vas - so in a small cab it has a big upper-bass 'hump' that will be good for some players and will give a perception of strong bass although my worry would be that some people (like me) would find them boomy. The Kappalites should have more true bass capability and a less humped response in a smaller box, and for a clear tone I'd go for the 3012HO rather than LF - it still has plenty of excursion and will function better without a separate midrange. Also the higher sensitivity is good

[quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='827017' date='May 4 2010, 12:20 AM']Quite true - I've just been reading about Jameson's bass. He was quoted as saying that he, in fact, never changed the strings after he replaced the original Fender stock strings with LaBellas.[/quote] Jamerson was a jazz player to start with, i.e. double bass. That, together with the really limited recording technology available at Motown in the early days where they struggled to fit everything in the mix, no doubt influenced his tonal preference enormously and the latter would have limited what options would actually work in the mix context to a much greater extent than today. Also don't forget, he had tape saturation and a recording engineer to shape his tone - he wouldn't need the facility to modify it from the bass. I must say I kind of like the idea of Chris modifying his bass, just to annoy all the collector-types! It's only a blob of solder, after all...but if resale is likely then I guess it makes sense to be cautious. (I bet this bass isn't on original strings though - would the collectors keep these on too?! Even Jamerson might have broken a couple after 40-odd years)

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='826910' date='May 3 2010, 10:33 PM']Eminence has been using Klippel Analysis to measure xmax on their drivers for about four years. It's defined as excursion at 10% THD. It's a far more valid method than coil depth/plate thickness methods, which are neither accurate nor consistent. For instance, in the case of under-hung coils that method gives an xmax of zero. Comparing the Klippel versus coil/plate figures on Eminence drivers the Klippel figure runs about 15% higher. Using that standard the BN10300S would come in around 2.5mm, and the NTR-10 2520D around 4.9mm. As to why Klippel is not universally employed it's simply a matter of the manufacturers not buying the gear.[/quote] Thanks for an interesting reply Bill - it's funny that the Eminence come out so low in terms of difference between the two methods, compared to (for example) B&C drivers such as the 10NW64 - they claim a one-way Xmax of 8mm measured by the Klippel method, whereas the Celestion method would give 4mm and Alex's would give 6mm. So in this case the Klippel method runs 100% higher and even Alex's method is quite conservative in comparison. For the NDL64, equivalent figures are 6, 3 and 5, whereas the 12" NW100 gives 9, 6 and 9.5. In the absence of properly equivalent measurements, and based on nothing but subjective experience of Celestion PA drivers being very good, clean performers, I'd bet that the NTRs run closer to the B&C end of the scale, and Alex's guesstimate formula, than to 15% extra. In theory I should be able to compare directly (albeit subjectively) at some point since I have a Deltalite II 2510 kicking around.

I can't see any way you can do this without breaking something. The solder joint seems the logical point of attack. Probably some insane hi-fi freak would claim otherwise, but in the dimension I inhabit, solder doesn't contribute one iota to 'vintage tone', or to playability. You could always use a solder sucker and save the original solder in a little bag! The at least you could restore it to 'all original' components. I'm sure that would reduce collector's value, but what's the point in having the damn thing if it doesn't do exactly what you want? You could either treat it as an investment, put it in a glass case and hunt for yet another P that gives you the tone and feel you're after, or just take the plunge!

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='826377' date='May 3 2010, 12:39 PM']I wondered if anyone would pick this up. The alternatives are to measure the phsical dimensions of gap and coil os Celestion do or to measure the excursion at a set level of distortion, usually 10% which is where it starts to be audible. How quickly the sound becomes compressed as the coil leaves the magnetic field does depend upon the relationship between coil and magnet depth as well as gap geometry. I don't care much about which method is quoted but it would be nice if everyone stuck to the same method so we can make comparisons. Using Alex's method gives Xmax of 3mm for the Celestion BN10300 by the way. I'm hoping you go for the Celestion BN Lawrence. I can't believe Celestion of all people haven't tried out their designs but it is so off the wall to make a bass speaker that has a resonance at 77.9Hz and a much higher f3 in a cab that I chickened out of trying it and went for the Fane10-275 in my latest cab. It gives a lovely tight controlled sound but won't set the world on fire without a livelier top end.[/quote] To confuse things even further, quoting directly from Beyma driver PDF: "The Xmax is calculated as: (Lvc - Hag)/2 + Hag/3.5, where Lvc is the voice coil length and Hag is the air gap height" So nearly the same formula as Alex's but will give an even more generous Xmax figure! While B&C quote an alternative figure they term Xvar (and give a good justification as to why that value is preferable). I start to wonder if Xlim divided by two might be a better rough and ready comparison. Any idea what Xlim is for the Celestions? Btw I think you're getting a bit mixed up with your model names - both the Green label neos and the Orange label start with BN, with X at the end denoting Green label and S denoting Orange. For the Orange label BN10-300S, Gap height = 8mm & Voice coil winding width = 12mm so using Alex's method you get an Xmax of 4mm or using Beyma's method you get 4.29mm. For the BN10-300X, Gap height = 8mm and Voice coil winding width = 16mm so the respective numbers are 6mm and 6.29mm. I think with the Orange label 10" units they're best off in a 2x10" configuration on top of a nice fat 15" unit. But on their own you could always tune them below their resonant frequency in a bigger box. The real issue then is how much power the particular bass playing through them actually outputs below 100Hz, so at what overall playing volume you're going to be excursion limited. After all, a bass doesn't output sine waves! I suspect from my Jazz it's going to be higher than one might at first imagine, especially when emphasising the bridge pickup. On (e.g.) a P there'll be a lot more around 80Hz, but I don't play a P! However, I just noticed the NTR10-2520D, which is similar to the E unit but with a shorter voice coil, trading Xmax (still very respectable at 6mm (Alex's method)) against sensitivity and upper end response. In WinISD it models out almost exactly the same at the bottom end as the NTR10-2520E, so of course it exceeds Xmax at a slightly lower wattage, but since it's effectively thermally limited before that'll become a real issue anyway, I reckon this is definitely worth it for the enhanced sensitivity and HF. I'm guessing the NTR will sound a lot clearer than the Green label with less distortion and less power compression, hence louder too - best of all worlds. I think that's the unit I'll use! Since I'm only looking at a 1x10" unit initially then skimping on the driver seems pointless, and it'll still come in much cheaper than an equivalent commercial cab

I've not heard the RX but I was very impressed with a Roland Cube 30 which a pro-player friend had for teaching (and actually used for small jazz gigs!). It had a solid, articulate tone that was varied in a worthwhile way by the modelling options. I was the opposite of impressed with the Ashdown Perfect 10 which I got in a deal with a bass I bought. The tone was deader and flabbier than a stuffed goose, nowhere near what you can achieve with even their budget Electric Blue range.

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='824996' date='May 1 2010, 05:37 PM']I've got reservations about the Celestion bass speakers (BL and BN) because of their restricted Xmax and the high resonant frequencies (based entirely on their specs). Stevie do you have any experience with these speakers as I am curious as to how they sound?[/quote] The Celestion Xmax figures are not comparable to (e.g.) Eminence or B&C, they are more conservative as they use a different method to arrive at the figure. They calculate Xmax the old way, which is (Voice coil winding width - gap height)/2. Alexclaber has posted figures showing that, for comparison to Eminence drivers (and presumably other manufacturers such as B&C), a more accurate calculation would be (Voice coil winding width - gap height)/2 + (Gap depth/4). This gives much more respectable numbers which I understand equate better with real-world performance. The Celestion BN10300X has a whopping Xmax of 6mm using this method, while even the Orange label series have Xmax of 4mm, directly comparable to a Deltalite II. The NTR10-2520E gives 6.75mm, making it on paper probably the best option on the market for really tight true bass from 10" drivers. The Celestion 10" units have notably lower Vas values than the Eminence Deltalite II, and combined with the high extension capabilities this means (at least for the green label and NTR) that you can put them in a smaller box and get reasonable bass, or you can put them in a big box with a low port tuning to extend the low end and they'll still be limited by thermal constraints rather than Xmax. Some B&C drivers give similar performance to the Celestions but are more money. I am hoping to do a DIY ultra-compact 1x10" build using Celestions, a bit like the one posted on here a few days ago but out of 12mm lightweight ply. I'll go with either the BN10300X or NTR10-2520E depending on funds and deciding whether I prefer the more balanced tonality of the NTR. Having said that, I do wonder how good the Orange label might sound with their extended top end - surprisingly nice, I'd bet, despite the (relatively) restricted low-end capability.

Those gold basses should look like awful tat, but for some reason they're among my favourite styled basses of all time, especially the jazzes with their bound necks. That P price has got to be worth it if it plays/sounds as good as it looks.

[quote name='The Burpster' post='817920' date='Apr 25 2010, 11:02 AM']Roland cube 30 or 100. cant go wrong really.[/quote] I agree, the Rolands to me sound very much like a 'big rig', only smaller, if that makes sense! Well voiced.

Thanks for the suggestions people - I will probably try both Rotosounds and Fat Beams in the future. I like the Hi Beams I have on my other bass, they are very musical but a little too refined for the sound I'm after on this instrument. I'm varying where I play and the pickup volumes - but in actual fact the bass I'm comparing to had an awesome neck pickup tone! And it's me playing both basses in each case, it's none of that 'it's in the fingers' business here. Amp-wise, again I've used both through the same amp and even on a little Ashdown Electric Blue it sounds magic. It had standard spacing as does my (Japanese) reissue. My desire for a 70s spacing jazz tone is separate to what I'm after here! I did wonder if through-stringing/bridge upgrade would help as mine just has the bent plate bridge, but from what I understand it makes more of a difference to the bass and sustain, rather than the mid-range. I don't care about sustain, I only need the note to last about half a second max but I want that half second or less to really punch me in the chest and grind my ears up!

[quote name='Conan' post='816046' date='Apr 23 2010, 12:04 PM']Great advice! In this price bracket you can get some genuine bargains as well as some horrific, almost unplayable wrecks! By shopping locally you can try each individual bass, as quality control at this end of the market is notoriously variable! Depending on where you are, there may even be a friendly basschatter who would come with you to check out second-hand basses in your area! If you try one and don't get on with it, walk away. Good luck![/quote] +1 on getting an experienced player along to help you choose. ESPECIALLY if going for a Squier - I very deliberately didn't recommend those as, while there are some good ones, the QC is just too variable for an inexperienced player to trust they'll get something that is problem-free without getting advice from someone who actually knows what they're doing. This is true of the Standard, Affinity, and VMJ range instruments that I've seen in shops and has always been true in the past apart from the very early Japanese ones. The CV range seem to be better but you'd be bloody lucky to get one for close to £130 secondhand. That BB414 up there looks like an absolute steal! I'm sort of glad I didn't see that til it had ended or I'd be £129 less well off

Ashdown generally use Jensen/Sica. Markbass use B&C, which IMO are very nice indeed and are excellent performers in small boxes. Barefaced use Eminence. Trace I believe used to use Celestion. Really there are good offerings from all manufacturers if you're prepared to pay enough, although I'd say Eminence are not the best option if you want a very compact cabinet, unless you like a bit of a boomy sound. It is telling though that B&C are used in a lot of high-end PA systems, that's a market which is very discerning about loudspeaker quality.

Actually that particular Celestion models excellently in WinISD ( especially if you use an adjusted Xmax for direct comparison to other manufacturers and to give a better idea of 'real world' limits). For a 30l box you can tune it very low indeed before it runs out of xmax at 200w input. I'd suggest somewhere between 50 and 55 Hz, or you could go as low as 45Hz and you'll lose a bit around 60Hz but you'll only be 10dB down at 40Hz with a nice smooth, gradual rising curve above that. I fancy one of these in 12mm poplar