LawrenceH

I know what you're saying - for some types of playing you don't want too much boom, a tighter sound is where it's at. The output from two speakers stacked is only fully constructive below a certain frequency so you will get a more even bass/low mid boost, right in a region that can interact with rooms, and then more listener-dependent combing effects at higher frequencies, which means you can lose some of the higher harmonic definition - that's one reason why an 810 is not just the sound of a 110 magnified to our ears. The heft that Discreet talks about is definitely where a lot of players have the meat of their sound, and it works well for certain genres - if the J12 plays like the J10s I have, then it has tons of that low-mid boost already. I think the Bergs are voiced similarly down there albeit not so pronounced, so if you stack them it could easily be too much of a 'good thing' for some styles and definitely in certain rooms.

There is probably a difference between a sound engineer's 'mid-priced' PA and what people who don't do sound count as 'mid-priced' Among the former, I'd say the QSC K12 would be worth a look. There are big advantages to an active speaker of that quality - the inherent gains in volume and distortion of bi-amping, but also the DSP correction/bass management which means they can push the woofer harder without causing overexcursion. A passive system just can't match that without a lot of extra outboard.

I've known the Beatles stuff since I was a tiddler so I just enjoyed them for what they were, which IMO was a great band who evolved an awful lot over a very short timescale (I can't think of any other pop artists who made that many albums in that much time). But, listening to them for the first time as an adult with an already extensive listening history is bound to be different. Lots is going to sound derivative/obvious until you put it in the context of when it was happening. I can say for sure, learning their songs as a child, breaking down how they worked, was a great and very accessible musical education in pop music harmony, melody/polyphony and arrangement.

Bassman's right, a PA approach is the way to get 'transparent'. If it's too ruthlessly clear, you may find that high quality reproduction at high volume exposes previously unnoticed deficiencies of the zoom unit!

If it's just for rehearsal and you already have a compact, why not make the weight/size saving worthwhile and go for a ten inch unit? I use one loaded with the celestion ntr ten from a markbass f1 and always have volume in reserve, it is a nice driver.

Hmm, I would not be very happy with that deal if I was the singer! The Genz use nice cast-frame woofers... so the cost compromise comes somewhere else less critical for bass guitar, ie the 4kHz crossover point, too high for a 12" driver without seriously compromising dispersion and increasing distortion right in a critical register for vocals. Plus, these speakers are OEMs voiced for bass guitar - I'd be very surprised if the cab's output was near flat. Having said that, the Carlsbros are probably not great either and could be even worse, but my opinion is that the money would be far better spent on smaller speakers designed with vocal reproduction in mind. After all, the voice is normally most important in 60s/70s pop!

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1369873334' post='2093906'] I'm also wondering if you feel the bands you are a fan of owe you something. And what they owe you. [/quote] Great question IMO, because it looks at ownership of music/creative output in a different way than the usual. 'We owe it to the fans...', tacit acknowledgement that a big part of the success of a band is (always?) due to fans' free word-of-mouth/publicity as well as direct financial input. Some people's emotional investment in these things is massive - their mistake to make perhaps if the 'relationship' is one-way, but I think a lot of artists feel a certain obligation to these fans nonetheless, for good and bad. Could make an argument that the best artists in one sense are those who continue to evolve, but in a way that takes people along with them to places they didn't expect. My own favourite music looking back is the stuff that mixed what I already liked with something new, that I had to learn to appreciate and sent me in a new direction as a listener.

[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1369917296' post='2094424'] ...I'll get me coat. [/quote] Yes. Yes, I think you probably should

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1369916175' post='2094394'] Hmm. I'd like to see some figures for dB losses through an empty stud wall with double-skinned plasterboard and one filled with rockwool. I'd bet on there being very little difference. [/quote] Have a look at that link I posted - insulation is supposed to reduce cavity resonance.

There's a useful introductory guide to soundproofing techniques here: http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/ Soundonsound magazine's website/forum is also good for advice on both soundproofing and acoustic treatment. Agree completely about the ventilation, the top issues for our band in Edinburgh choosing between rehearsal rooms were room sound quality and air quality! (then drum kit quality)

[quote name='barklama' timestamp='1369867739' post='2093858'] how do people rate these cabs for the sort of music i am doing? [/quote] A good friend of mine uses the Markbass cabs in quite a funky/souly functions band, with a Marcus Miller bass 5 - he gets an excellent sound that fits well with the band and genre. In fact, any time I've heard Markbass cabs used, and when I've tried them myself, they've sounded good to my ears particularly with a jazz bass.

[quote name='lefrash' timestamp='1369756329' post='2092376'] This was my other thought. Why not get myself a class D head, which isnt a big deal to carry about all the time, and just get a small 8" cab for the gigs I dont need my full amp. Although I love my LH500, I more or less use it as a power amp these days. Money is an issue for this route, and I cant be without an amp for any length of time. [/quote] Almost anything is lighter than an LH500! But the MB200 is especially small even for a Class D amp,and has a nice clear sound which I think would help you hear it onstage. I was very keen on getting a bus-friendly setup and ended up pairing a Markbass F1 with a DIY 10" neo cab - it works really well and I have indeed taken it on the bus on numerous occasions, together with bass, however I could definitely manage happily with even less than this for the purpose you describe. Only issue is that there aren't many good lightweight 8" cabs on the market, the Genz might be worth a look but for maximum value I'd definitely be inclined to make my own - plus that way you could make it a combo with the head, if preferred. There are a couple of excellent 8" drivers out there, can point you in the right direction if you're interested. This route wouldn't save you money compared to a small monitor, but it would give you excellent sound quality and portability for a relatively modest outlay.

If you want adequate volume from a smaller speaker, then it's best to compensate for lack of size with more watts, especially as watts are now cheap and weigh virtually nothing. Pairing something like a GK MB200 with an 8 or perhaps even a 6" driver would give you the power needed in a ridiculously small footprint.

I've done both ends as well - fairly common amongst bassists it seems, perhaps you could make the case that bassists naturally develop an ear for the whole band sound! I think it's interesting and useful to consider the sound of bass guitar on records. First, it's always, always very heavily compressed. Even bass that sounds open, natural and dynamic will have a lot of 'transparent' dynamic control happening. Second, it's unusual to have a lot of actual bass in the sound - all those discussions about the need for high-power, high-excursion woofers etc etc, well hifis don't have them, by and large, and radio stations won't broadcast stuff that's too bass-heavy without squashing it back anyway. Even dub bass, on commercial records, typically gets that dubby tone around the 100 to 300ish Hz region. Yes live sound is different from recording and I'd mix much more bass-heavy live, but to my ears a lot of live sound engineers are far too keen on the sound of their subs (crossed somewhere around 80-130Hz) and don't understand where the critical frequencies are for 'tone', ie the upper-bass through the midrange. This also afflicts the drum kit, especially at festivals - makes me wince hearing that 'rock' thump/click kick drum stamping all over a gentle acoustic ballad! Or hearing the snare through the subs... Btw I am coming to realise recently just how much, if you want an up-front, growly sound that still sits in the mix nicely and is 'SE friendly', then a well set-up fast compressor is a very useful tool indeed - even better if it's multiband, or perhaps two in series! You do need to know how to set them though - a live SE should but quite possibly doesn't, and unruly spikes from the stage sound can still mess up his mix. That applies to guitar too, especially when there's substantial overlap with the bass.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1369050749' post='2084208'] Do you think "Mr. Landlord" will sound good through that? [/quote] Haha, it will so long as you play it better than I managed on the recording! That was about 5 days in after loading a van up with gear in Devon, driving to Edinburgh, setting up the recording 'studio' in the cottage and then playing for hours and hours each day. Brain frazzled, fingers destroyed - my timing in the little break bits is about as atrocious as it could possibly be despite simplifying the line...I cringed a bit when I listened back when setting up for mixing shame because I think it's a nice line overall

Signal:noise ratio matters most when taking a very quiet input, like a mic or instrument out - I wouldn't worry about it at all for things at line level, it's more important that you don't clip them and it's usual to run things on inserts at unity gain - I definitely wouldn't go boosting the GEQ output, if it has been designed properly then it will have been designed to use in this manner. If your desk has main inserts, I'd use them for the main GEQ/compressor etc, they can be very quickly unplugged in an emergency

I have used Celestions with similar extension and overall capability (older, K12-300B, also a PA driver) for a bass cab in the past tuned somewhere around 50-55 litres IIRC. Still use them sometimes, they sound great, and go nice and loud with an old 300w TE powering them. They wouldn't match something using high-excursion drivers and a bigger power amp for maximum volume, but they've never needed to! Really depends what you want from them, but I personally like the sound of flattish-response PA woofers.

To be fair, any modern 2x15 set up should roughly match or outperform a typical 6x10 - a 15" driver has more than 3x the cone area of a 10" and will usually have more excursion, too. 10s only really make sense in multiples if you want a slim form factor.

The upper end of the response really won't change much putting the speakers in a different box, assuming you are listening on-axis. If the bottom end is overpowering at one point in the frequency range, then changing the box could help and potentially re-balance the low end against the mids/treble, but it's not going to magically make them sound bright and modern. The reason for the 2 boxes is that a 4x10 in a square really does have issues that will manifest in the mids/treble as very uneven sound. It might be worth checking if you like the sound of these drivers better when you're facing them directly, in which case stacking them vertically would bring you more on-axis. Otherwise, if you've got the power available you can probably get close to the same overall volume from 2 high-end 10" PA drivers. If not you can get the same volume or even exceed it with the right pair of 12s.

IMO a lot more people would like Markbass when trying them out for the first time if they just changed how they stuck the VLE/VPF knobs on in the factory, (and adjusted the graphic on the front panel toi match), so that zero was at 12 o clock! The number of times this appears to confuse people, so they walk away thinking you can't get a good sound out of the amps, must be massive.

Celestion have supplied specs for older speakers when I've contacted them in the past. Block up the ports, see what it sounds like, if it's ok then it's a fair bet in a sealed cab. If it sounds horrible then these are not the drivers for you! You can build from 12mm ply with lots of bracing to stiffen panels and it'll be a lot lighter, especially if you use poplar/birch-faced poplar/pine or basically anything but solid baltic birch. The 2x 2x10 cabs really is a better idea though, if you like the sound from the 4x10 then keep the internal dimensions about the same - it'll sound the same and it won't take up hardly any extra space.

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1368296519' post='2075458'] It's a tricky thing, playing what other played before. [/quote] Yup, definitely agree with this - the nice thing about this band is that people are quite open to experimenting even with old stuff (the band has quite an anarchic approach in a more literal, political sense of the word). I found myself keeping the bits I thought worked best, but changing where I felt the drums/bass weren't locking or the bass wasn't contributing much to the overall picture, and it just naturally evolved over time - no doubt Mr Beer et al will tell you about my annoying-never-the-same-line-twice style! I especially enjoyed experimenting with new parts at gigs, heheh. Anyway I always felt 'my' bass lines were a work in progress so I'm sure you'll have your own take - as long as it fits with what the rest of the band are doing, I say go with it. As to the other bassists, well the band let me live, the others, it's not for me to say...

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1368275632' post='2075194'] If you have any recordings besides the EPs I already have, I'd be extremely interested, so that I get to learn as much of the repertoire as possible and quickly. It would be nice to get to play live soon. [/quote] Aye, last thing we did before we left was de-camp to a holiday cottage for a week with a load of recording gear. There's a whole album's worth of new recordings sitting on mine and Frank's computers! I'm sure he'll pass on the tracks in various states of mix pretty soon, and as I say I'll be doing my best to get them finished over the next few weeks; there's some new material but also some of the old songs were re-recorded and may have changed quite a bit - I half-learned them from the same EPs you've been given, but have probably changed a lot of what the previous bassists played (there've been a few ). What you do with 'my' versions, of course, will be up to you - I'll look forward to hearing at a gig whenever I'm next back in Edinburgh! The drummer's great fun to play with, as are the rest, and yes they listen to the bass a lot in this band... previous to this one I'd have said my default style was old-school funk but in the process of locking together better I found it best to really strip that back and rebuild. The irony is that I'm now in more of a 'funk' band again and am having to re-learn to play that way,

PS, yes, NUF auditions, strange things.