LawrenceH

If that bassline wasn't sitting high in the mix with an EQ that boosts the mids right over the vocal register, it wouldn't seem nearly so 'busy'. If you solo'd some lines from classic recordings and EQ'ed them like that you might be surprised... OTOH that slap line is very tight and nicely realised/recorded but the core tone for me is pure extra mature cheddar...

Just from trying VM in shops, I got the impression the VM pickups are very thick at the bottom, with a much-restricted top end. By contrast the MIMs tend to sound thinner but have greater bandwidth. Very different in character I'd say, which one you prefer though...? More expensive pickups tend IME to let you have a bit of a best of both worlds whilst still leaning one way or the other. My Fender 75RI jazz pickups, which I dropped into a MIM Classic 70s J cut like the proverbial knife but still have a respectable bottom end. My DiMarzio Model Js are thick like the Duncan Designed, but with wider bandwidth/better top-end.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354881921' post='1891526'] I'm not trying to push my products, I'm just trying to clarify the truths. [/quote] We should probably not continue on this thread! Maybe I'll start a different one at some point. But I don't think we're in much disagreement about the 'truths' (though from my own experience mixing I'd fundamentally disagree about the big low end from stage cabs+FoH, muddies up the mix far more than it helps and no cab will replicate the 'slam' of 'decent big rig' PA subs). What we're talking about though are objective limitations applied to subjective issues - timbral preference, perceived volume, sound quality. 'Education' ie how to use the kit wisely is as you say important. But if you know how to do that, then apparently limited kit can do a good job without breaking the bank or your back. There's a lot of ridiculous talk on here about how people 'need' this and that, fuelling the GAS, where I feel a bit of perspective and a bit of knowledge can save a lot of money and dissatisfaction leaving people to do what you say and get on with playing.

Looks really interesting, is it actually a sealed design?

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354871424' post='1891354'] The 12HPL64 only has similar sensitivity at 1W. Turn up to 100W and you're looking at around 3dB less sensitivity as the thermal and mechanical power handling are both about half as much as the 3012HO. And it won't handle much more than that without grumbling. [/quote] Which is TOTALLY irrelevant when you're looking at feeding a single speaker from a max of 250 watts with a crest factor of 10dB and you still have headroom, which is exactly my point. I think you are stretching that point for the sake of promoting your product here which isn't like you. We both know the advantages of drivers with more power handling, but also that the extra doesn't come at zero cost and that the performance benefits are irrelevant if you have a good driver working within its limitations. I don't think you need to worry that people will suddenly stop seeing the advantages of your cabs, they're very good and the price is still keen compared to other offerings. For me, the main gains offered by the long excursion neo drivers and modern amps is the ability to get to performance volume from a far smaller and lighter footprint. But 2 12s even in old money is enough for a lot of situations until you start with the smiley EQing. Then the problem becomes not the rig, but the person using it. Big bottom is nice but tonal perception is in the midrange, where extra volume is very cheap. I'm sure you'd agree that many cheap cabs are/were let down by lack of midrange clarity, and midrange performance is very important in your product line. [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354871424' post='1891354'] That very much depends on the bassist and the band and the gig. You could have two different bassists with the same band at the same venue and one could easily need 6dB more output than the other if his tonal preferences are skewed towards the lows. That requires a cab to move four times as much air and with power compression considered you're looking at needing maybe ten times as much power from your amp. [/quote] Of course, but for a bigger gig where that kind of performance matters most, significant cab output low down is a problem, not a solution, from the point of view of FoH for reasons of both overall control and interference cancellation with subs. Again you know all this but are choosing to highlight only the advantages when every solution is in fact a compromise. The weak fundamental/first harmonics from sealed cabs are a blessing for mix engineers!

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354837225' post='1891216'] Well, he has gone about it the wrong way/ [/quote] Oh dear. On the other hand, getting the amp first allows use of the headphone out for practicing, use of the valve pre-amp to colour the sound before DI for gigs with FoH where a cab is a non-issue, an easy portable solution for gigs where there's a house cab so you don't have to bring your own... I don't really understand your antagonism. Secondhand for the OP is a good option, though even there it's hard to beat the GK, you'd be hard pushed to find a pair of neo woofers alone for much less than that price.

[quote name='Ultima2876' timestamp='1354816194' post='1890827'] Back on topic, The GK 2x12 MBE is a good choice if you plan on being sensible and using a step-by-step approach. However, you could always get a bank loan (or sell a kidney) and do what The Dark Lord suggests [/quote] It really depends what the gigs are. My dad and I built a pair of reflexed 112s for bass back in the 90s, using fairly decent (but still pressed-steel), carefully chosen PA woofers. This was at a time when it was all about whether 10s or 15s were best(!), which seemed rather silly to us even at the time. We didn't build another of that config (though plenty of others) because that rig still gets loud and clear enough with a 300 watt head for any gig they've ever been asked to do, there's no tonal compromise either. Horses for courses, have to think about how loud you need. I would say though, always get more speaker surface area if you want the option of going louder, which is why the 212 is a good setup IMO

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1354813353' post='1890780'] You don't need much power at all, you just need more power the louder you want to play. 'Maximum performance' is basically getting the SPL and tone you need for your gigs - if you don't need to be very loud then you don't need lots of power. Cabs with larger voice coils and higher excursion are louder than cabs with smaller volce coils and lower excursion of equal 1W sensitivity when both are driven with a mere 100W amp, because they maintain more of their 1W sensitivity through reduced voice coil heating and greater motor linearity. Use more power and the difference becomes even more obvious but that doesn't mean it isn't still there at lower SPL. I'd have expected better from you Lawrence than referring to a passive loudspeaker as 'overpowered'! [/quote] Haha, well that's fair but a semantic quibble We both know full well what I meant in the context of the OP looking for a cheap but acceptable cab for a 500w head and for 'maximum performance' by your definition it's not really necessary to spend a lot of money if you don't need to go loud. With enough power your cabs are capable of going WELL beyond volumes that people use at most gigs and that comes at a price in terms of money, and also, even with neos, woofer weight (comparing say Kappalites with Deltalites or even lighter pressed-steel woofers). If you don't even need to drive a 212 at close to the 500 watts you have on tap for your gigs, sensitivity gains are a non-issue - loud enough is loud enough. The flip-side to your point about [i]larger[/i] voice-coil diameter, is of course that the [i]longe[/i]r voicecoils of high-excursion drivers are less efficient - the Kappalite HOs are very loud but could be made even more so by sacrificing excursion and power handling, and of course the broadband sensitivity of the LF is much lower. The older, smaller VC diam B&C 12HPL64 is similar in sensitivity to the HO for that reason and sounds very nice indeed - just won't go as loud. But you know all this. Of course I'm aware that you have your cabs to sell but I remember the early discussions about high excursion designs in the context of ERB down to low F# I also know what the power distribution v frequency looks like for low notes on some typical 4-strings, and my chances of noticeably exceeding excursion limits on even reasonable woofers with only 500 watts available!

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1354799698' post='1890497'] So, you are saying that the speakers (the things that the music actually comes out of) are the least important part of the chain? [/quote] What's the problem with going to a modular set-up and upgrading one step at a time? It's arguable what the most important thing is, no matter how good speakers are crap in crap out, and if you DI then it really only matters for the stage anyway. Speakers like the Barefaced are just overpowered for this application anyway - a 500w@ ohms micro can't push them anywhere near their limits with a normal bass guitar signal unless your EQ is all to cock. For the budget the MBE212 would be pretty unbeatable, from what people say it's worth bracing them a bit more which is dead easy and cheap to do. I don't think people realise how loud any reasonable 212 can be, and how much power you actually need to get the most out of a high-excursion high-power cab. For maximum performance from a Barefaced S12, for example, I'd look at a decent PA amp (with built-in HPF like most decent amps have) capable of bridging down to 4 ohms with true 2000 watts output. It would be louder than I'd ever need though.

Horns: Maceo Parker Fred Wesley Randy Brecker (sorry Rockin' Rick Gardner, but...) Drums/Perc: Akira Jimbo with ?uestlove, one acoustic one electric kit (Gutted Ray Barretto is dead. Someone else from Fania or else one of the percussionists from Mandrill) Guitar 1: Prince Guitar 2: Guthrie Govan Keys: Herbie Hancock Male vox: (and, err, 'rhythm' keys so I can have him alongside Herbie!): Stevie Wonder Female Vox: Ann Sexton or Sharon Jones Backing vox/dancers: Kid Creole's own Coconuts Turntables: Kid Koala, or maybe Grand Wizzard Theodore MC: Melle Mel or George Clinton There're two things* wrong with this band though, first I'd feel like a d&*k on bass when it should really be Bootsy or Larry, second I intended to have more members of Mandrill in there who're pretty much my ultimate band on their own at the moment. Still though, pretty much the funkiest show ever I think. *also third thing, Roger Troutman is dead or he'd be on talkbox

I'd be very interested, I'm not in a position to build anything imminently but the tapped horn intrigues me - if it's anywhere near flat that's a very useful spec for smooth crossing to tops. Got any pics of the ones you've built or from the build process itself?

[quote name='lurksalot' timestamp='1354578498' post='1887765'] [i]I have built a couple [/i]of mini tapped horns using Precision devices 12 inch subs (PD12 SB30) they sound great , but I am trying to build smaller , my next build will be to sort a sub for the kick drum , I am hoping to build a box not more than a foot cubed , but the proof of the pudding ........ maybe on my christmas break [/quote] Interesting, I've not heard a tapped horn. What did you use for design, did you follow plans or design your own? What's the useable bandwidth?

The idea above of a tiered pricing structure based on item value is the best solution I can see, if implementable. As a very occasional user of the marketplace, I wouldn't pay £2 to list something I only expected get £25 for. And those types of low-cost ads are great for the 'community spirit'. Require everyone to put a trade value in on their trade items and treat them the same in terms of pricing. A flat per-item fee for listing will kill the marketplace IMO - once it's only worth listing for higher-price items then the user-base as a whole dwindles, and people'd be less inclined to list the expensive stuff so it all spirals down. You've got a great brand here that has taken so much time and effort on your part to build up, be such a shame if a wrong step now damaged it. Just my 2p!

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1354721298' post='1889577'] It worked well but for the money you could just get a decent used cab that would pair up nice with that TC head [/quote] Yours is probably nicer than a piezo, but at under £6 and the ability to run without a crossover one of these is probably worth a punt http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EVNL054BD I'd wire it up outside the cab first to see what it sounded like, if it was harsh I might go crazy and splash out on a resistor and cap!

It'd work, but whether it'd be any good or not is another matter and you'd still have to get the crossover. If you're going down that route, may as well add in a cheap tweeter. Cheapest way to do it would be a piezo and then you can use a very rudimentary high-pass crossover or even none at all. Total cost not more than a tenner

Ah, the best thread on basschat Here's one from Mandrill, criminally underrated IMO - when they get going it's the heaviest funk around (ignore the outro to prev track on the LP, the funk is worth waiting for!) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4l4-yyOq4c[/media]

Ah useful thanks! You can see it's an OEM version of the 12pr300, so they're definitely using Faitals. How similar it sounds to the Genz cab would depend on the crossover implementation and the chosen HF unit. The Genz crosses quite high at 4kHz, a bit too high really if you want to avoid an off-axis drop in the upper-mid-range response. But that's almost universal in 2-way designs as it takes advantage of the natural on-axis roll off that starts round 3.5kHz, and is a LOT cheaper to implement in terms of components! One speaker that Faital make that really intrigues me is the little 3" full-range 3fe22. It would be very interesting to see how that behaved as a midrange on a suitable horn with a 10" driver, if you got it right the off-axis response could be fantastic. At £20 or so I might buy one to play around with at some point.

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1354572412' post='1887673'] The new Genz NX2 cab has faital speakers...any idea which ones? [/quote] Gotta be based around the 12PR300 chassis I'd say.

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1354441212' post='1885885'] I will point out I think the Vanderkley is an excellent cab; I just think a lot of the low end if from the 1st harmonics of E and A being emphasised as opposed to the fundamental. I don't think most people would ever know unless they had an Acme next to it pumping out the fundamental for comparison. Which I do. The Streamliner probably pairs well as it has a lot of baked in low end (at least according to the charts I've seen on Talkbass and my ears) which fattens things out nicely. [/quote] I've not heard them yet but according to hearsay these Faitals are some of the best neo speakers on the market at any price and are where I'd look if I was building a new cab. I'm sure the Vanderkleys sound excellent! It's very unusual for any cab to be flat between 40 and 100Hz, and the Faitals should go as loud or louder in this region than the Acme can manage, it'll just be (a lot) louder still higher up! I'd love to build a super-compact cab around their 8pr200 as well.

Looks great! But a bit uncomfortable, here's a tip - sand over the edges a bit and contour it where the forearm rests.

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1354385091' post='1885464'] Looks like a Faital driver in there. I'm guessing the 12HP1020 ([url="http://www.faitalpro.com/products/schede/hps.php?id=201050110"]http://www.faitalpro...hp?id=201050110[/url]). [/quote] I don't think that one's really designed for a conventional reflex box, I'd assume the 12PR300 for the lower power handling cabs and the 12FH520 for the higher.

I've seen the price of the early 80s Fenders go up a bit in the last year or so, and the 70s stuff has definitely gone up a lot - but whether that's just part of a general trend on Fenders or relates to the age, I don't know

Does anyone know what drivers these are loaded with? Faitals?

OTOH a Casio mini keyboard costs £35 - I'd have one of them at twice the price if they sounded like that monotron!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1354203966' post='1883565'] They are advising me , but ultimately the final decision rests with me . Alder is a safe bet in terms of sound , but may end up too heavy for my taste . Ash is lighter , but more of a gamble in terms of sound . [/quote] I think if you're paying then you can specify how you want it to sound! The builder should get you there, or there's not much point having them build it. Challenge for you is finding a good way to communicate what you're after.