stevie

I don't know what's audible and what's not audible in your speakers, Mr. Foxen. I've never heard them.

Guitar loudspeakers are a different animal. And just to clarify, I'm not saying that drivers don't 'break in'; I'm suggesting that break-in is not audible in the context of a speaker system.

Could be a misaligned or damaged voice coil. I'd consider talking to Thomann and seeing if they'll send you out a replacement tweeter. It would be easier and cheaper for them - as long as you can fit it.

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1354283625' post='1884428'] The running in of a car isn't a very good analogy. The wearing in of a pair of new unwashed jeans or leather shoes is, because they get softer with use, as do the suspensions on drivers. Like Alex I don't recommend breaking in drivers just because I think it might be beneficial, it's because I've measured the results of break in, literally hundreds of times. I very much doubt that the wags who say it doesn't do anything have any data to back up their assertions. [/quote] It's true that a car isn't a good analogy. Neither are shoes unless you are planning to stick them on your feet and walk in them. The wags who say it doesn't do anything are the only ones who have published data. The "burn-in" camp relies on anecdotes and assertions. Here is someone who carried out exactly the same tests as I did and came to the same conclusion: <http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction>. For those who have better things to do, the conclusion this person comes to is "From the foregoing analyses, it's reasonable to conclude that suspension compliance changes arising as a consequence of initial driver burn in has little effect on the performance of a loudspeaker system." And there's plenty more where that came from. As you've measured the results of break-in hundreds of times, Bill, it surely wouldn't be too difficult for you to supply the "data to back up your assertions."

I think a lot of it has to do with the way the paper surround softens up over time, Mr. Foxen.

[quote name='andyjingram' timestamp='1354200995' post='1883491'] I think that outside of the audiophile world, the only real concern with speaker break-in is in guitar amps. Distorted guitar can sound noticeably unpleasant through a fresh speaker, and starts to 'open-up' over time, something guitarists are keen to get through rapidly. [/quote] Here's a video on YouTube showing a comparison between a new and a 'broken-in' Celestion guitar speaker: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGjMhHKP7Go> It's well done but quite unscientific in that 1) you know which speaker you're listening to and 2) the volume and particularly the amount of distortion changes depending on how he plays his guitar. Anyhow, what is interesting about this is the comments. Given that there is no marked sonic difference between the two speakers (although you are welcome to disagree) [i]everyone[/i] who has left a comment prefers the broken-in speaker. Now isn't that strange? I really liked this comment (I think he was serious): "It's obvious the broken in speaker is CLEANER than the new one. The new one seems a bit 'stiff'."

The same thought occurred to me. Doesn't anyone open their cabs up and look inside? (Must just be me then).

4String, have you considered that your experience could be down to listener break-in? Expectation bias is a very strange thing. I remember being convinced of the superiority of my £100 interconnect cables until I recommended them to a friend and we compared them with the free ones that came with his amplifier. Of course, in those days when you got a new item of hi-fi equipment the first thing you did was to bin the free cables supplied and replace them with a pair from a boutique maker made from 99.999 percent oxygen-free silver-plated copper. When I first took my swish cables home I plugged them in and was convinced they sounded better. After all, they looked better, a very knowledgeable salesman had assured me that they would sound better, they had good reviews in the hi-fi press and were manufactured by a company with a million dollar turnover making all kinds of scientific claims that sounded very convincing. Expectation bias, you see? A few years later when I compared them to my friend’s cheap cables, I wasn’t aware which was which - and guess what? I couldn’t hear any difference. Nothing at all. They sounded identical. I’m curious about two things. 1. If breaking a speaker in makes a difference, why is it always a difference for the better? 2. For all the people who claim to hear a difference in their speakers after break-in (where there is no measurable difference in the system frequency response) why doesn’t anyone notice a difference in their speakers after they’ve been playing them for a while? After all, driver parameters change as the voice coil gets hot and this has a very real effect on frequency response that you can in fact measure.

I can't see any reason why not.

There are lots of examples of products selling on eBay for much higher than the rrp. I bought a cable directly from Sennheiser for £15 that eBay traders are asking £25 for. People assume that stuff is dirt cheap on eBay - and it usually is. But not always.

I'm sorry, but running your speakers in is a completely pointless exercise. It's an audio myth. Your speaker is not a car engine. Sure, you'll soften up the suspension of your drivers but the lower resonance frequency (Fs) will be balanced by an increase in compliance (VAS) and there will be no difference in the sound of your cab. Of course, if you're expecting to hear a difference, chances are you will hear one. Then there is the matter of whether you can actually tell whether the sound has changed (even if it has) when there is a long gap between listening tests. A year or two ago when this subject was being discussed on here I measured the Thiele-Small parameters of a factory fresh Eminence 3012LF. Then I ran it in and measured again. Of course, the parameters had changed but when I modelled the frequency response in a box there was no difference. I published the results and they should be on this site somewhere. I didn't realize at the time that greater minds had done this before me. Just play the cab and stop farting about. [Edit] I would add that there is a greater chance of damaging your speaker by playing a very low test tone through it (at a frequency that the cab is not designed to handle and where the driver has very little excursion capability) than playing through it normally.

[quote name='voxpop' timestamp='1353345096' post='1873998'] Would I be better off perminatly blocking off the cab ports / holes and making a sealed cab with the celestion driver. [/quote] As Lawrence says, you'll reduce power handling a bit, but that Celestion driver has a very high Qts which is more suited to a sealed system. The undersized magnet syndrome strikes again.

[quote name='bremen' timestamp='1353344945' post='1873992'] My preference is also flat, but humps and bumps in the right places can add to the character of a sound in a positive way, wouldn't you agree? [/quote] If you're lucky, yes. The problem is that the frequencies with humps and bumps are often accompanied by other problems that you don't want (like resonances, distortion, suckouts). Better to have a clean, smooth (though not necessarily flat) frequency response that lets your 'tone' shine through. Then dial in your 'character' before it gets to the speaker. I know others take a different approach, and that's fine, but I don't want my speakers to add colour.

Massive humps and bumps have no place in any speaker system. They are usually caused by bad design or skimping on cost. The 100Hz bump that is common in bass guitar cabs is usually caused by using an undersized magnet to save money.

Back home now. The family had lunch at the pub (good prices) and then left to have a wander around Sherborne. I had a whale of a time trying out all the lovely gear and was particularly impressed by a great-sounding Sandberg that I'll never be able to afford, but never mind. A big thanks to John (oldslapper) and Yorks5stringer for all their good work in organizing everything. I'll try to bring an amp and a cab next year!

I'm hoping to see you all there. I'll be bringing a heavily modified Yamaha 1100S. Anyone interested in listening to Duncan and Delano pickups or TI Flats can help themselves.

You then end up with a cab made out of 6mm balsa wood. The sensible thing is to go for the most effective solution for you.

Given the choice, a well-braced 18mm cab is better than a well-braced 12mm cab, which is better than a well-braced 6mm cab. You really have to compare like with like. Why compromise if you don't have to? I'm not saying a well-braced 12mm cab is necessarily awful, but if I were to build a Fearful for myself, I'd use 18mm birch - that was basically my point earlier.

Thanks for the info. I've decided to stay in the first position after all. Very nice bass sound you have there, Crez.

[quote name='TPJ' timestamp='1349707158' post='1829367'] why? It looks as if the cabs have been designed around strong internal bracing to reduce cab resonance and weight instead of using heavy ply. again, why? This fearful stuff was run through the mill with testing and people experimenting will xovers. It looks as if they arrived at a pretty well suited and varied set of xovers to use. [/quote] Because 18mm ply has proven itself over the years to be the ideal material for bass cabinets. It's a balancing act. Thicker is better, but not that much better. Thinner wood and lightweight woods - even plastic - are OK for midrange, but going down to 12mm ply is a compromise for bass. Plenty of people are prepared to make that compromise because it gives them a lighter cabinet. Which is fair enough if portability is a priority. All cabinets should be properly braced. Testing and experimenting is no substitute for measuring. You have to be able to carry out measurements to design a crossover properly and I don't think anyone did that. Anything else is guesswork.

Would a set of wheels under your cab help?

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' timestamp='1349557346' post='1827814'] Ok wasn't aware of that, I thought you could just slot in drivers that would be suited to the volume of the cab. [/quote] If you use similar drivers to the ones specified, you could, although the driver complement in these is better than 95% of bass cabs on the market. You could fit a cheaper speaker than the Eminence 12/15LF - or a better one - but those Eminence drivers are good value (for neos) and perform well. It's a shame they don't use 3/4" birch ply and that the crossover is a bit of a bodge. IMO of course.

That's a great performance. We're doing it in E flat (or C minor). What position on the neck do you play it in?