stevie

[quote name='Roland Rock' timestamp='1495003092' post='3300268'] My priorities in a cab: 3: Less than 13" deep so it can fit where it needs to under the stairs. [/quote] Which just goes to show how different everyone's needs are. One of my requirements is for a cab that will fit under the piano in the dining room.

Phil, I appreciate the Ciare measurement is a bit difficult to read because both curves intersect, but the whole point of these measurements is to demonstrate that drivers start to beam at a predictable frequency. The graphs show that the Barefaced driver rolls off exactly as you would expect it to do, despite the claims by the manufacturer that they have somehow controlled the dispersion by using a secret sauce that raises the rollof frequency. If anyone wonders why I am pursuing this, it's because I don't think a commercial company should be able to come onto this forum and make outrageous claims for their products, particularly when they refuse to prove those claims when asked to do so. I also have a low tolerance for snake oil and cow poop. Just a reminder of the claim, which went like this (and was repeated several times in various guises).

This is the amp that persuaded me that guitarists didn't need valves, although it's still a minority opinion.

Dispersion is a really important issue in sound reinforcement - so you do want to know that the designer of your PA system and your floor monitor gave it some attention. Bass cabs are a slightly different kettle of fish. If I were in the OP's position, I wouldn't be much concerned by it: I can hear myself through my monitors and the audience can hear me through the PA. Job done. On the other hand, if your monitors just run vocals, you don't put the bass through the PA, and you prefer to use a single small cab, then a cab with good midrange dispersion could make a difference to what you and your audience hear. For me, that means a smaller driver dedicated to the midrange, which gives you the added benefit of mid tones that are cleaner and clearer than you can get from a larger driver on its own (but there is more than one way to skin a cat).

I see you have homed in on a completely irrelevant minor issue. Look at the off-axis responses. Unless you are completely blind, you can see that they are very similar. The main thing is that both drivers roll off at about 1.2kHz exactly as the theory predicts. The Barefaced driver does not have any magical dispersion properties.

Quite a few manufacturers publish the off-axis response of their drivers (I can think of 18sound and JBL off the top of my head), but it isn’t really necessary because everyone knows that cones of the same size exhibit more or less the same rolloff characteristics. As a rule of thumb, speaker drivers start beaming at a frequency whose wavelength is equal to the diameter of the cone. For a 12” driver that would be around 1250 Hz. The curves show that this is in fact what is happening. The off-axis curve is the one we’re interested in; the on-axis curve is just for reference.

Thanks Steve. I didn't think there was any put down either. I was sort of apologising for uploading information that would go over many people's heads. Jass, time was a bit limited and I was only interested in measuring the driver, which was the one used in the thread title. So I installed the drivers in an identical cabinet in order to carry out measurements that were comparable. In fact, it was the Basschat DIY prototype cab. The measurements were of the 12" drivers connected directly to an amp. I'd be very happy to measure some commercial cabinets and to put the information on the forum in a standard format for comparison purposes - perhaps in the Reviews section. I did actually put out a call for some cabs at one stage during the Basschat DIY thread so that we could have a quality commercial cabinet to compare with - but nobody responded. I leave amplifiers to the many qualified experts in that field. I am certainly not one of them.

Nice to see you back in the thread, Dood.

Back to the subject of dispersion..... Over the weekend I was lucky enough to become a proud, albeit very temporary, owner of an actual Barefaced. Soooooo.... I thought I’d do some quick and dirty measurements of the 12” XN driver compared to another similar driver to see if the claims for its superior off-axis performance held up. I’ll try to keep comments to a minimum, as I think the measurements speak for themselves. For the record, they were taken at a distance of 1 metre, in a cabinet 33cm wide with the driver at a height of 1.3 metres from the floor. Measurement software was Liberty Audiosuite. The response is anechoic down to about 300Hz. I took measurements on axis, and at 30 and 45 degrees off axis. As the 45-degree ones don’t really provide any extra information, I’ll keep things simple and not show them. Here’s the frequency response of the Barefaced driver on axis (top) and at 30 degrees off axis (lower). Nice smooth response apart from the wide bump just above 2kHz, which deserves further investigation. The upper -6dB point is at 3.5kHz, which means that, without any crossover on the LF, the crossover point must at around 3.5kHz. Note the off-axis response. This is the same measurement of a Ciare 12.00 NDW. Unfortunately no longer made, it was a standard production model (i.e. not OEM). It has a 4-inch, 20mm long coil. It’s a bit bumpier than the Eminence, but its on-axis response extends to 4kHz, which is where its main upper resonance is. Back to the Barefaced. This is the cumulative spectral decay plot of the Barefaced driver, taken to reveal what’s going on between 2 and 3kHz. I suspect not everyone will know how to read this, but it’s here for those who do.

I guess customers breaking stuff and sending it back as faulty must be a common problem for any of these companies (not saying you did that, of course). So I can see them being wary. I've dealt with most of these computer parts companies and found them all to be quite efficient. But I understand your position, and I'm sure I'd be the same.

Just to expand on that report a bit, the two cabs we compared were identical apart from a slight difference in the tuning. Below 100Hz both drivers measured exactly the same. The Kappalite remained flat from 100Hz up, however, while the Beyma kept rising to about 200Hz where it flattened off at a level a few dBs higher than the Eminence. So although the Beyma and the Eminence extended equally low in the bass, it sounded like the Kappalite went lower and was fatter because the upper bass wasn't as prominent. That certainly wasn't obvious just listening to them. The other thing we noticed, which we didn't have time to pursue, was that the Kappalite system actually sounded a bit louder than the Beyma system on bass guitar, even though the measurements showed that it wasn't. I suspect that could be connected with the off-axis performance of the 6" midrange driver.

Yes, that's always the risk.

[quote name='moooper' timestamp='1494438677' post='3296022'] Well after a year I'm not expecting them to pay anything. I see the whole thing as a learning experience. [/quote] If they don't pay up, the next step is to get the bailiffs in. It would be a waste to spend a year on this and then not follow through. That way, you get your money *and* a learning experience.

What's the problem with Scan? I've been dealing with them for over 10 years and they've been fine. The Queen even buys her Pcs from them.

Dorset and Somerset pub gigs pay an average of £200 to £250 irrespective of the size of the band. I'm getting the impression that this is what pubs tend to pay across the country.

Just because we don't comment doesn't mean we're not interested in what you are doing. Keep it up!

Getting your woof back? I think the LMIII a fairly safe bet. It seems to do most things right, although like all gear, it won't suit everyone.

[quote name='Westenra' timestamp='1494333518' post='3295031'] Wasn't expecting so much TC dislike! [/quote] You have to bear in mind that forums like this tend to heap praise on horse sh*t and that you often have to dig through the horse sh*t to get to the truth. I too had one of these, although it was the cheaper Classic version. Whoever designed the exterior deserves an award, but I had a real problem with the low end roll off. I was using a cabinet that was a bit bass light and needed some low end boost to fatten it up - but the TC made the low end even weedier. Unfortunately, I couldn't boost the bass without also boosting the upper bass, which made everything boomy. The 450 has more flexible tone shaping, but I believe it has the same low end response. I swapped it for a Markbass LMIII and got my woof back. I can't say that I noticed any problem with the high end, but as the others have said, there's a big difference between a synth and a bass guitar.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1494053831' post='3292835'] Stevie, I quite like the broad flat projection this sort of system promises. I know you've been looking at how a bassist can get to hear his rig better in the sort of cramped stages we generally play on. I'm looking at this design as a way of controlling room resonances by cutting down on reflections, and incidentally improving the bands experience. We've both been arguing for years that the small horn drivers available aren't really relevant to most of what a bass does and a mid range driver would be more helpful, the problem is that there wasn't a lot of availability of suitable drivers. The advent of the Bose style line source plus mini sub PA means there are a a range of drivers like the Faital to choose from. After the positive responses I'm keen to give it a go. I'm hoping you'll help with the crossover [/quote] Sounds like a project, Phil. Are you going invest in the Faital 12" too? I'd be happy to help out.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1494060218' post='3292889'] Jeff Genzler has always been a class act. His amps and cabs are some of the best. I can't believe Fender had such a brain fart when Genz arrived with the Kamen takeover and they completely failed to capitalise on the gem that had dropped into their lap! [/quote] Totally agree with that assessment.

For those who haven't tried a cab with a separate midrange driver, not only is their dispersion superior to a single driver cab (so you and your band can hear the bass better), but the quality of the mids is also much improved - cleaner, crisper, less coloured. Worth a try anyway.

[quote name='DBerriff' timestamp='1494001363' post='3292550'] What marketing department? Genzler is a tiny company. I have one of their new 10" combos and I can assure you that the mids do sound really nice. I have never heard my NXT EUB sound better. The design angles the array upwards slightly but all the feedback from US users suggests that dispersion does work really well, including for the player. If it is not a line array - what is it? And what makes you cringe? I had not really read the copy; I do take exception to the use of the word [i]exponential[/i]. I bought on the basis of previous experience with Jeff's designs which work well and reliably. [/quote] I'm sure it's a great cab. I thought I more or less said so. The others in this thread will tell you how critical I normally am about commercial boxes. I didn't know the midrange drivers were tilted up - that sounds like a good idea. When I hear the term 'line array' I think of the concert-type systems first developed by l'Acoustics in the 1980s, which are a bit more than four drivers on top of each other. I don't really think it meets the criterion for a line array, which is why it makes me cringe a bit. Only a bit though. What's a bit of marketing spin if the product is properly engineered and built?

That did seem a bit of a flip-flop from "we refuse to make cabs that squirt at the ceiling" to "our cabs are great at squirting at the ceiling".

I've never heard the Genzler cab, but I rather like it. I do think that there was more design input from the marketing department than from the engineering department, but there's nothing wrong with that. The negative for me is that the vertical midrange dispersion is going to be limited - not as good as a separate, larger midrange driver and not even as good as a 12" driver on its own. The upside is that the mids should sound really nice, have good horizontal dispersion and will extend quite high even without an HF unit - I suspect as high as is necessary for a bass guitar cabinet. It's nicely styled, and even though the "line array" sales pitch makes me cringe a bit, the product shows some imagination at a time when everybody else is selling an Eminence 12 and a bullet tweeter. Yes, all right.

We seem to have a bit of Proof by Assertion going on here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), closely related to argumentum ad neuseum. Go on, look it up in Wikipedia, it's worth a quick read (then think: "strong and stable leadership"). But I digress. Yes, the radiating area of a loudspeaker shrinks with increasing frequency and most cones lose their rigidity at 1kHz or so. That's the normal behaviour of a loudspeaker. They all do that. Do we have any data, figures, measurements or other - I hate to say the word again - evidence that the Barefaced driver has better off-axis dispersion than other 12" drivers. Repeating a claim does not prove it. I would leave you with this quote from Harry F. Olsen. (Look him up. He invented the isobaric arrangement used by Orange, the passive radiator used in the Mesa Boogie Walkabout, as well as the synthesizer (using valves!), videotape, the ribbon microphone and lots of other surprising things. He also developed the theoretical basis for the line array – 50 years ago. Amazing chap. He also wrote the first authoritative work on acoustics, which is still studied by students of the subject today). Anyway, Harry F. said: "The fact is that for most of the range of any loudspeaker, its geometry has little effect on dispersion or directivity, its projected area or perimeter being the major factor." Interesting, eh?