stevie

I've never heard the Genzler cab, but I rather like it. I do think that there was more design input from the marketing department than from the engineering department, but there's nothing wrong with that. The negative for me is that the vertical midrange dispersion is going to be limited - not as good as a separate, larger midrange driver and not even as good as a 12" driver on its own. The upside is that the mids should sound really nice, have good horizontal dispersion and will extend quite high even without an HF unit - I suspect as high as is necessary for a bass guitar cabinet. It's nicely styled, and even though the "line array" sales pitch makes me cringe a bit, the product shows some imagination at a time when everybody else is selling an Eminence 12 and a bullet tweeter. Yes, all right.

We seem to have a bit of Proof by Assertion going on here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), closely related to argumentum ad neuseum. Go on, look it up in Wikipedia, it's worth a quick read (then think: "strong and stable leadership"). But I digress. Yes, the radiating area of a loudspeaker shrinks with increasing frequency and most cones lose their rigidity at 1kHz or so. That's the normal behaviour of a loudspeaker. They all do that. Do we have any data, figures, measurements or other - I hate to say the word again - evidence that the Barefaced driver has better off-axis dispersion than other 12" drivers. Repeating a claim does not prove it. I would leave you with this quote from Harry F. Olsen. (Look him up. He invented the isobaric arrangement used by Orange, the passive radiator used in the Mesa Boogie Walkabout, as well as the synthesizer (using valves!), videotape, the ribbon microphone and lots of other surprising things. He also developed the theoretical basis for the line array – 50 years ago. Amazing chap. He also wrote the first authoritative work on acoustics, which is still studied by students of the subject today). Anyway, Harry F. said: "The fact is that for most of the range of any loudspeaker, its geometry has little effect on dispersion or directivity, its projected area or perimeter being the major factor." Interesting, eh?

This is quite revealing about how some bass cab sellers operate. Unless you are used to drawing up this kind of specification, you really cannot make any sensible judgment from the data they supply. This is because most bass cab makers - although not all it must be said - stretch the truth about their products as far as they possibly can. Or at least present it in a way that is very misleading. So you think that the Barefaced cab goes lowest because the blurb talks about 30Hz? Think again. I couldn't be bothered checking, but I'm sure there is some marketing nonsense alongside that figure of 30Hz. On the whole, the data supplied by the PA industry is honest and useful. So when RCF say that their cab is -3dB down at 48Hz, you can be fairly sure it this is accurate. I installed a Kappalite 3012LF in the Basschat DIY cab the other day and measured -3dB at 48Hz. Now I can tell you from experience that -3dB at 48Hz gives you a nice fat bass tone. As the RCF goes marginally lower, you will not lack for lows. And I'm talking about serious low-end punch here. I'd guess that the Markbass figure is -10dB, but I don't know the cab so I can't say for sure. The Barefaced is unlikely to be anywhere near the RCF, but I don't think that a fat low end is one of its design goals anyway. The 30Hz is fluff. Just don't be misled by bass cab specifications, that's all.

Well the physics is quite simple. With most bass cabs, you lose the midrange and higher frequencies when you are standing at an angle off to the side or above your cab. Without those frequencies, note definition disappears. Just like turning the treble control right down makes it difficult to understand speech. When you're standing close to and above your cab, you need a design that will direct those mid and high frequencies up to your ears as well as into the audience. Most bass cabs don't do that. Even the ones that have tweeters use bullets that send the sound straight forward past your knees. There may be more, but the only cabs I know that try to deal with this problem are the Greenboy 3-ways and the Audiokinesis cabs, which are fitted with a 90 x 90 horn, i.e. a vertical dispersion of 90 degrees designed specifically to reach your ears when you are in front of the cab. There may be others that I'm not familiar with - and you can always tilt your cab. I thought that the Barefaced, at least the 1 x 12", would be quite good from this point of view, as I think it has a horn with a vertical dispersion angle of 70 degrees, but it seems you have to place it behind the drummer to hear it. Oh well. I would also mention the Basschat DIY cab II, which was designed with this particular problem in mind and which sounds quite clear even when you are directly in front of it. Edit - I'd say that cabs with a separate 5 or 6-inch midrange driver also direct the sound towards your ears quite well, at least in theory, because they double the frequency at which the cab starts to beam.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Honestly, if you truly believe that then there's no point in me continuing this discussion. [/quote] That's fine by me. You seem to forget that I didn't start this discussion, Alex. You barged into a perfectly sensible thread to insist that your speaker doesn't have the directivity problems that other similar speakers have. Well, you're also entitled to your opinion, but all that we've had from you so far is opinion - waffle about how you manipulate break-up modes, a load of advertising claims, and now a threat to flounce off - still having provided no proof of your original assertion. [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Furthermore we use an excellent compression driver on a large waveguide, nothing like a "cheap tweeter". [/quote] Well, cheap is very subjective term. And as you say, I'm entitled to my opinion. What is it - the Faital Pro HF102? 30 quid from Blue Aran, right? Little one-inch coil? Why do I think it's cheap? Because you'd never see a puny compression driver like that in a £1,000 cab from a reputable PA company - that's why. The RCF 745 uses a 1.4" exit driver with a 4" coil that retails at £350 on its own. The crossover point is a very impressive 650Hz, which enables them to properly manage the off-axis response of the system. When you also think that it comes with 700w of lightweight power in two separate ampliers, an electronic crossover, DSP processing and protection - and is available from lots of retail outlets at £100 less than the Big Twin - there is little wonder that it looks like a much better option for FRFR. And I think I should be able to say so on this forum without being badgered by a commercial user flogging his competitive product. [MODS: are you reading this?] [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Regarding some of my other points, I look forward to seeing your example of a 3-way passive crossover that is totally unaffected by voice coil heating. [/quote] Then I would simply point you to products from JBL, EAW, Martin, Community, Nexo, Yorkville, RCF. Or even ATC. They all make passive 3-ways. This voice coil heating business seems to be your way of justifying cheaping out on the crossover. No crossover components on the LF, therefore it's not effected by heating of the woofer voice coil. Very clever. Very cheap. Not impressed with that at all. How are things down at the Winchester Club, by the way? [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] But the proof is in the pudding - we have a number of bassists using our cabs specifically for FRFR modelling applications with things like Kempers, and they've all been extremely impressed. We also sell an active version of the Big Baby 2, the FR800, which is growing in popularity as more bassists discover quite how good it is. The feedback is out there, the reviews are out there. We have demo cabs available to borrow. We have a one month trial period for all customers in Europe. It isn't in our interest to sell the Emperor's New Clothes as they'd just get returned. [/quote] That's very nice for you, but I'm still waiting for some tangible proof that your speakers don't beam off-axis. And you seem to have changed the subject.

The main problem with stacking full-range cabs is that you get weird cancellations between the tweeters because they are so far apart. It's better just to have a single HF unit at the top. I know what you mean about hearing yourself up close. It's been one of my concerns too, as most bass cab manufacturers don't really address the problem. You need a cab with good vertical dispersion in the mids and highs to hear yourself properly. Or, as Jack says, tilt your cab.

It's difficult to answer without knowing which Markbass cabs you have, but a single Big Twin could bring some improvement. Stacking speakers that have not been designed specifically for stacking is never a great idea. If you're going for Barefaced, just get one; it will be plenty loud enough. However, a single PA speaker, in my opinion, would be your best solution. Look at RCF to start with. I agree with EBS_freak that powered is a good idea.

That makes no sense, Alex. Beaming is not complex. It depends on the diameter of the diaphragm. Sure, you can alter it a bit by allowing the cone to break up, but that’s not normally desirable. Unless you fit a whizzer, phase plug, build a bending wave cone or fit some kind of horn, you’re stuck with beaming at the wavelength equivalent to the diameter of the cone. Guitar speakers follow the same laws as other speakers. You can get a bit more off axis as a result of cone breakup, but that’s it. A good hi-fi/studio monitor will cross a 6” driver to a tweeter no higher than 3kHz to maintain a reasonable off-axis performance. Whereas we are talking here about a system with two 12” speakers with a cone area equivalent to an 18” driver, which will start to roll off on the vertical axis no later than 750Hz, if memory serves. The only way you are going to get decent off-axis performance from a 2 x 12” setup is by using an expensive compression driver, like RCF do in their PA speakers, or by crossing over to a midrange driver. A 2 x 12” cab crossed over to a cheap tweeter is still going to have a big off-axis dip in the midrange – and no amount of marketing BS is going to change that. Some people might never notice the off-axis dip unless it’s pointed out to them, and even then it might not bother them. That’s fair enough. I’m just pointing out the facts as I see them.

Lots of claims with no actual proof as usual, Alex. Two 12" drivers will start to beam below 1kHz and there's no amount of marketing hype that can fix that. I notice Jason only lives a few miles away from me. I'd be quite happy to measure his cab and we'll see exactly what kind of off-axis response they have. What exactly are the problems with using a midrange driver, Alex? Bergantino, Vanderkley, Greenboy and Duke Le Jeune seem to be happy with them.

I was talking about 2 x12 tweetered cabs in general but the Barefaced one is no different. I wasn't commenting on your post, Dan, as I don't disagree with anything in it. I am just coming at this from a slightly different angle, i.e. the off-axis performance.

The problem with a 2x12" + tweeter configuration is that, even if they are flat on axis, they will exhibit a large midrange suckout off axis unless the HF unit is crossed at a fairly low frequency, which is not the case here. Above-axis suckouts are going to be a problem too. A well designed PA cab that can handle bass guitar (which probably means a 15" bass driver) could be your best option, or alternatively, look for a bass cabinet with a midrange driver. The latter will not give you the ultimate sparkle you can get from a tweeter but it should give you a decent power response at bass guitar frequencies.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1493209128' post='3286494'] I have four different Barefaced cabs and I'm getting worried. How on earth can I come up with a consistent motor vehicle analogy that will neither break down under stress (or on the A312) nor attract The Wrath Of Stevie? [/quote] Tell us about the time you drove all four of your cars at the same time, Jack! (See, car analogies really are rubbish!)

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493128608' post='3285856'] Sorry Stevie I was just about to use the car analogy I don't think I can stop myself..... [/quote] For goodness' sake, Phil, show some restraint.

Maybe you could work it out and let the rest of us know.

Who was the carrier?

[list] [*]Near total silence - 0 dB [*]A whisper - 15 dB [*]Normal conversation - 60 dB [*]A lawnmower - 90 dB [*]A car horn - 110 dB [*]A rock concert or a jet engine - 120 dB [*]A gunshot or firecracker - 140 dB [/list] Now they do.

Could we please dispense with the stupid and patronising car analogies? Thank you!

The OP expressed a point of view and put it up for discussion. What's wrong with that? Seems fair enough to me.

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493029201' post='3284887'] I'm sure we're all familiar with this type of chart: [/quote] Not from bass equipment manufacturers we aren't.

[quote name='eddiehoffmann' timestamp='1491840655' post='3275791'] I would be really interested to know which boutique companies you think are doing it right. I still don't want any tweeters, properly done or otherwise, anywhere near my cabs, but I'm curious to know what are these companies and how the differ from companies such as Markbass, Aguilar... Please note I'm not being sarcastic. I'm literally just curious about it. [/quote] If I were to name names, the fanboys would be on me like a ton of bricks, especially as I can't claim to have have examined every bass cab on the market. So I'll have to pass on that one. But there's nothing to stop anyone posting a photo of the interior of their cabinets if they think the manufacturer has done a great job.

It's very difficult to diagnose remotely, but it sounds very much like a faulty tweeter. The other problem that could give you that kind of noise is a loose connection. So check the connections to the tweeter and make sure they are sound, with no frayed wires anywhere.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1491671138' post='3274704'] Congratulations Stevie, that's impressive. You have to try it with vocals [/quote] Thanks Phil. It sounds really nice with vocals, Phil. Like a very good floor monitor. By the way, I located some more measurements of this system, which I will post as soon as I can.

A picture is worth a thousand words, WoT.