stevie

Dorset and Somerset pub gigs pay an average of £200 to £250 irrespective of the size of the band. I'm getting the impression that this is what pubs tend to pay across the country.

Just because we don't comment doesn't mean we're not interested in what you are doing. Keep it up!

Getting your woof back? I think the LMIII a fairly safe bet. It seems to do most things right, although like all gear, it won't suit everyone.

[quote name='Westenra' timestamp='1494333518' post='3295031'] Wasn't expecting so much TC dislike! [/quote] You have to bear in mind that forums like this tend to heap praise on horse sh*t and that you often have to dig through the horse sh*t to get to the truth. I too had one of these, although it was the cheaper Classic version. Whoever designed the exterior deserves an award, but I had a real problem with the low end roll off. I was using a cabinet that was a bit bass light and needed some low end boost to fatten it up - but the TC made the low end even weedier. Unfortunately, I couldn't boost the bass without also boosting the upper bass, which made everything boomy. The 450 has more flexible tone shaping, but I believe it has the same low end response. I swapped it for a Markbass LMIII and got my woof back. I can't say that I noticed any problem with the high end, but as the others have said, there's a big difference between a synth and a bass guitar.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1494053831' post='3292835'] Stevie, I quite like the broad flat projection this sort of system promises. I know you've been looking at how a bassist can get to hear his rig better in the sort of cramped stages we generally play on. I'm looking at this design as a way of controlling room resonances by cutting down on reflections, and incidentally improving the bands experience. We've both been arguing for years that the small horn drivers available aren't really relevant to most of what a bass does and a mid range driver would be more helpful, the problem is that there wasn't a lot of availability of suitable drivers. The advent of the Bose style line source plus mini sub PA means there are a a range of drivers like the Faital to choose from. After the positive responses I'm keen to give it a go. I'm hoping you'll help with the crossover [/quote] Sounds like a project, Phil. Are you going invest in the Faital 12" too? I'd be happy to help out.

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1494060218' post='3292889'] Jeff Genzler has always been a class act. His amps and cabs are some of the best. I can't believe Fender had such a brain fart when Genz arrived with the Kamen takeover and they completely failed to capitalise on the gem that had dropped into their lap! [/quote] Totally agree with that assessment.

For those who haven't tried a cab with a separate midrange driver, not only is their dispersion superior to a single driver cab (so you and your band can hear the bass better), but the quality of the mids is also much improved - cleaner, crisper, less coloured. Worth a try anyway.

[quote name='DBerriff' timestamp='1494001363' post='3292550'] What marketing department? Genzler is a tiny company. I have one of their new 10" combos and I can assure you that the mids do sound really nice. I have never heard my NXT EUB sound better. The design angles the array upwards slightly but all the feedback from US users suggests that dispersion does work really well, including for the player. If it is not a line array - what is it? And what makes you cringe? I had not really read the copy; I do take exception to the use of the word [i]exponential[/i]. I bought on the basis of previous experience with Jeff's designs which work well and reliably. [/quote] I'm sure it's a great cab. I thought I more or less said so. The others in this thread will tell you how critical I normally am about commercial boxes. I didn't know the midrange drivers were tilted up - that sounds like a good idea. When I hear the term 'line array' I think of the concert-type systems first developed by l'Acoustics in the 1980s, which are a bit more than four drivers on top of each other. I don't really think it meets the criterion for a line array, which is why it makes me cringe a bit. Only a bit though. What's a bit of marketing spin if the product is properly engineered and built?

That did seem a bit of a flip-flop from "we refuse to make cabs that squirt at the ceiling" to "our cabs are great at squirting at the ceiling".

I've never heard the Genzler cab, but I rather like it. I do think that there was more design input from the marketing department than from the engineering department, but there's nothing wrong with that. The negative for me is that the vertical midrange dispersion is going to be limited - not as good as a separate, larger midrange driver and not even as good as a 12" driver on its own. The upside is that the mids should sound really nice, have good horizontal dispersion and will extend quite high even without an HF unit - I suspect as high as is necessary for a bass guitar cabinet. It's nicely styled, and even though the "line array" sales pitch makes me cringe a bit, the product shows some imagination at a time when everybody else is selling an Eminence 12 and a bullet tweeter. Yes, all right.

We seem to have a bit of Proof by Assertion going on here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion), closely related to argumentum ad neuseum. Go on, look it up in Wikipedia, it's worth a quick read (then think: "strong and stable leadership"). But I digress. Yes, the radiating area of a loudspeaker shrinks with increasing frequency and most cones lose their rigidity at 1kHz or so. That's the normal behaviour of a loudspeaker. They all do that. Do we have any data, figures, measurements or other - I hate to say the word again - evidence that the Barefaced driver has better off-axis dispersion than other 12" drivers. Repeating a claim does not prove it. I would leave you with this quote from Harry F. Olsen. (Look him up. He invented the isobaric arrangement used by Orange, the passive radiator used in the Mesa Boogie Walkabout, as well as the synthesizer (using valves!), videotape, the ribbon microphone and lots of other surprising things. He also developed the theoretical basis for the line array – 50 years ago. Amazing chap. He also wrote the first authoritative work on acoustics, which is still studied by students of the subject today). Anyway, Harry F. said: "The fact is that for most of the range of any loudspeaker, its geometry has little effect on dispersion or directivity, its projected area or perimeter being the major factor." Interesting, eh?

This is quite revealing about how some bass cab sellers operate. Unless you are used to drawing up this kind of specification, you really cannot make any sensible judgment from the data they supply. This is because most bass cab makers - although not all it must be said - stretch the truth about their products as far as they possibly can. Or at least present it in a way that is very misleading. So you think that the Barefaced cab goes lowest because the blurb talks about 30Hz? Think again. I couldn't be bothered checking, but I'm sure there is some marketing nonsense alongside that figure of 30Hz. On the whole, the data supplied by the PA industry is honest and useful. So when RCF say that their cab is -3dB down at 48Hz, you can be fairly sure it this is accurate. I installed a Kappalite 3012LF in the Basschat DIY cab the other day and measured -3dB at 48Hz. Now I can tell you from experience that -3dB at 48Hz gives you a nice fat bass tone. As the RCF goes marginally lower, you will not lack for lows. And I'm talking about serious low-end punch here. I'd guess that the Markbass figure is -10dB, but I don't know the cab so I can't say for sure. The Barefaced is unlikely to be anywhere near the RCF, but I don't think that a fat low end is one of its design goals anyway. The 30Hz is fluff. Just don't be misled by bass cab specifications, that's all.

Well the physics is quite simple. With most bass cabs, you lose the midrange and higher frequencies when you are standing at an angle off to the side or above your cab. Without those frequencies, note definition disappears. Just like turning the treble control right down makes it difficult to understand speech. When you're standing close to and above your cab, you need a design that will direct those mid and high frequencies up to your ears as well as into the audience. Most bass cabs don't do that. Even the ones that have tweeters use bullets that send the sound straight forward past your knees. There may be more, but the only cabs I know that try to deal with this problem are the Greenboy 3-ways and the Audiokinesis cabs, which are fitted with a 90 x 90 horn, i.e. a vertical dispersion of 90 degrees designed specifically to reach your ears when you are in front of the cab. There may be others that I'm not familiar with - and you can always tilt your cab. I thought that the Barefaced, at least the 1 x 12", would be quite good from this point of view, as I think it has a horn with a vertical dispersion angle of 70 degrees, but it seems you have to place it behind the drummer to hear it. Oh well. I would also mention the Basschat DIY cab II, which was designed with this particular problem in mind and which sounds quite clear even when you are directly in front of it. Edit - I'd say that cabs with a separate 5 or 6-inch midrange driver also direct the sound towards your ears quite well, at least in theory, because they double the frequency at which the cab starts to beam.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Honestly, if you truly believe that then there's no point in me continuing this discussion. [/quote] That's fine by me. You seem to forget that I didn't start this discussion, Alex. You barged into a perfectly sensible thread to insist that your speaker doesn't have the directivity problems that other similar speakers have. Well, you're also entitled to your opinion, but all that we've had from you so far is opinion - waffle about how you manipulate break-up modes, a load of advertising claims, and now a threat to flounce off - still having provided no proof of your original assertion. [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Furthermore we use an excellent compression driver on a large waveguide, nothing like a "cheap tweeter". [/quote] Well, cheap is very subjective term. And as you say, I'm entitled to my opinion. What is it - the Faital Pro HF102? 30 quid from Blue Aran, right? Little one-inch coil? Why do I think it's cheap? Because you'd never see a puny compression driver like that in a £1,000 cab from a reputable PA company - that's why. The RCF 745 uses a 1.4" exit driver with a 4" coil that retails at £350 on its own. The crossover point is a very impressive 650Hz, which enables them to properly manage the off-axis response of the system. When you also think that it comes with 700w of lightweight power in two separate ampliers, an electronic crossover, DSP processing and protection - and is available from lots of retail outlets at £100 less than the Big Twin - there is little wonder that it looks like a much better option for FRFR. And I think I should be able to say so on this forum without being badgered by a commercial user flogging his competitive product. [MODS: are you reading this?] [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] Regarding some of my other points, I look forward to seeing your example of a 3-way passive crossover that is totally unaffected by voice coil heating. [/quote] Then I would simply point you to products from JBL, EAW, Martin, Community, Nexo, Yorkville, RCF. Or even ATC. They all make passive 3-ways. This voice coil heating business seems to be your way of justifying cheaping out on the crossover. No crossover components on the LF, therefore it's not effected by heating of the woofer voice coil. Very clever. Very cheap. Not impressed with that at all. How are things down at the Winchester Club, by the way? [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1493754370' post='3290476'] But the proof is in the pudding - we have a number of bassists using our cabs specifically for FRFR modelling applications with things like Kempers, and they've all been extremely impressed. We also sell an active version of the Big Baby 2, the FR800, which is growing in popularity as more bassists discover quite how good it is. The feedback is out there, the reviews are out there. We have demo cabs available to borrow. We have a one month trial period for all customers in Europe. It isn't in our interest to sell the Emperor's New Clothes as they'd just get returned. [/quote] That's very nice for you, but I'm still waiting for some tangible proof that your speakers don't beam off-axis. And you seem to have changed the subject.

The main problem with stacking full-range cabs is that you get weird cancellations between the tweeters because they are so far apart. It's better just to have a single HF unit at the top. I know what you mean about hearing yourself up close. It's been one of my concerns too, as most bass cab manufacturers don't really address the problem. You need a cab with good vertical dispersion in the mids and highs to hear yourself properly. Or, as Jack says, tilt your cab.

It's difficult to answer without knowing which Markbass cabs you have, but a single Big Twin could bring some improvement. Stacking speakers that have not been designed specifically for stacking is never a great idea. If you're going for Barefaced, just get one; it will be plenty loud enough. However, a single PA speaker, in my opinion, would be your best solution. Look at RCF to start with. I agree with EBS_freak that powered is a good idea.

That makes no sense, Alex. Beaming is not complex. It depends on the diameter of the diaphragm. Sure, you can alter it a bit by allowing the cone to break up, but that’s not normally desirable. Unless you fit a whizzer, phase plug, build a bending wave cone or fit some kind of horn, you’re stuck with beaming at the wavelength equivalent to the diameter of the cone. Guitar speakers follow the same laws as other speakers. You can get a bit more off axis as a result of cone breakup, but that’s it. A good hi-fi/studio monitor will cross a 6” driver to a tweeter no higher than 3kHz to maintain a reasonable off-axis performance. Whereas we are talking here about a system with two 12” speakers with a cone area equivalent to an 18” driver, which will start to roll off on the vertical axis no later than 750Hz, if memory serves. The only way you are going to get decent off-axis performance from a 2 x 12” setup is by using an expensive compression driver, like RCF do in their PA speakers, or by crossing over to a midrange driver. A 2 x 12” cab crossed over to a cheap tweeter is still going to have a big off-axis dip in the midrange – and no amount of marketing BS is going to change that. Some people might never notice the off-axis dip unless it’s pointed out to them, and even then it might not bother them. That’s fair enough. I’m just pointing out the facts as I see them.

Lots of claims with no actual proof as usual, Alex. Two 12" drivers will start to beam below 1kHz and there's no amount of marketing hype that can fix that. I notice Jason only lives a few miles away from me. I'd be quite happy to measure his cab and we'll see exactly what kind of off-axis response they have. What exactly are the problems with using a midrange driver, Alex? Bergantino, Vanderkley, Greenboy and Duke Le Jeune seem to be happy with them.

I was talking about 2 x12 tweetered cabs in general but the Barefaced one is no different. I wasn't commenting on your post, Dan, as I don't disagree with anything in it. I am just coming at this from a slightly different angle, i.e. the off-axis performance.

The problem with a 2x12" + tweeter configuration is that, even if they are flat on axis, they will exhibit a large midrange suckout off axis unless the HF unit is crossed at a fairly low frequency, which is not the case here. Above-axis suckouts are going to be a problem too. A well designed PA cab that can handle bass guitar (which probably means a 15" bass driver) could be your best option, or alternatively, look for a bass cabinet with a midrange driver. The latter will not give you the ultimate sparkle you can get from a tweeter but it should give you a decent power response at bass guitar frequencies.

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1493209128' post='3286494'] I have four different Barefaced cabs and I'm getting worried. How on earth can I come up with a consistent motor vehicle analogy that will neither break down under stress (or on the A312) nor attract The Wrath Of Stevie? [/quote] Tell us about the time you drove all four of your cars at the same time, Jack! (See, car analogies really are rubbish!)

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493128608' post='3285856'] Sorry Stevie I was just about to use the car analogy I don't think I can stop myself..... [/quote] For goodness' sake, Phil, show some restraint.

Maybe you could work it out and let the rest of us know.

Who was the carrier?

[list] [*]Near total silence - 0 dB [*]A whisper - 15 dB [*]Normal conversation - 60 dB [*]A lawnmower - 90 dB [*]A car horn - 110 dB [*]A rock concert or a jet engine - 120 dB [*]A gunshot or firecracker - 140 dB [/list] Now they do.