stevie

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1387489181' post='2312707'] I can't say Ive hunted the earth, but I have not come across 12" drivers that will do +/-10mm clean excursion as measured by any method that also give similar midrange sensitivity and extension as Alex claims for his (and I for one am happy to take his figures at face value). The ones with comparable linear travel weigh a lot even with neo magnets. The dispersion tends to narrow lower down on the long-excursion, big voicecoil diam subs too, which goes back to the original topic - cone construction. [/quote] Faital do a 12 with a specified 9.5mm excursion, although it's winding depth - magnetic gap depth) / 2 + (magnetic gap depth / 3. You can get them from Blue Aran. No need for 2 years R&D (yes, call me cynical if you like). The model number is 12HP1020. [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1387489181' post='2312707'] Although I think the Eminence KL series were nothing special by today's standards, it seems to me like Alex has a genuine USP with the new line. For PA it makes more sense to separate sub from mid-bass anyway so the goals are a little different. But yes, the standard (and eye-wateringly expensive) B&C drivers in all those big PA boxes sound pretty good to me. [/quote] I still rate the Eminence Kappalite LFs for the money. The bass/mids are a bit meh but still better than what you find in 90% of bass cabs. I agree, Alex seems to be using a very good driver.

Interesting. I know those midrange units and they don't by any stretch of the imagination go up to 15kHz - although they go plenty high enough. There's not much energy from the bass above 4kHz - so I wouldn't worry about power handling. You'll be fine with the Celestions. The original Audax units were quality drivers, but Celestion are making good stuff nowadays and I'm sure you'll be pleased if you fit them.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074'] Because of the way we work with Thiele/Small equations and the programs like WinISD that run them we tend to concentrate on this a lot, but our ears are so much more sensitive to what is going on in the 1-5kHz (midrange) and we tend collectively to gloss over that a bit. [/quote] I couldn't agree more! The 1-2kHz region is absolutely crucial to the sound of the bass guitar (as the recording experts will no doubt confirm). Yet when we play live, most bass cabs are unable to reproduce that area properly. I'm a great believer in having a separate midrange driver to take care of the upper mids. [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074'] This is my real bugbear coming from designing hi-fi speakers, I'm not convinced there's a lot of design going into commercially available drive units, There's a lot of over damped, low excursion drivers where they seem to have just stuck a bigger magnet on a cheaper design without considering the use for which the driver is intended, Just a marketing opportunity with no need to re-tool. Speakers recommended as bass drivers which are just unsuitable due to under damping, huge Vas values and low excursion and of course little control over the cone's behaviour under break up, with some Eminence units having 9dB peaks with very sharp peaks and troughs in the frequency response showing little damping of cone resonance. [/quote] You're speaking my language, Phil. Some of the drivers I've seen in big-name cabs are just embarrassing. But if people want cheap, that's what they get. [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074']It seems as if Alex Claber is having some input into the design of his drive units, that's a luxury I'd love to have. [/quote] Yes, well, we know that Alex is big on hyperbole (hi Alex! ). What input do you want? The premium drive units, the very best that the drive unit manufacturers can produce and the ones that the big companies like Meyer, QSC, Clair, EAW, Nexo, Martin etc. use, are all standard models that are available to you as a consumer.

The Monacor isn't sensitive enough. You'd be better off with the cheaper Celestion, which is likely to be better quality anyway. I have a couple of Fane Studio 5Ms (on cast chassis) which last retailed at about £80 each, which will outperform both of them and which I could sell you for less than the cost of a pair of Celestions as I don't need them any more. £40 delivered - how's that? They go up to 8kHz (not that you really need it). However, if you really want to replace all four - get the Celestions. I can't help you with the crossover frequency, unfortunately.

Good, but not a patch on Mr Hanky the Christmas poo.

Ashdown's customer service is amazing. I emailed them once with a problem and had an answer from the MD within 20 minutes. Most companies seem to bin emails nowadays. Or charge you premium rate to call them. Keep it up, Ashdown. People notice!

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387362651' post='2311023'] wouldn't rule that out...but for the fact that the SWR goliath jnr cab was traditional build and I blew the PAS speakers and put 2510's in them. People tell this is a great refit, but I didn't like the harder edge ... and also I think the cab needed a retune of ports...which I probably wasn't up for at the time. [/quote] I don't think you got very good advice when you bought the 2510s - they have a horrible 10dB peak at 2kHz which is accompanied by all kinds of nasties. I'm not surprised you didn't like them.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387313190' post='2310656'] The cabs...sound harsh/hard at low volumes and NEO, classically.... and people will insist there isn't a NEO sound, but all the NEO's I've used sound same-ish. They have no problem handling the volumes so much, but lack authority, IMO. [/quote] I reckon what you're probably noticing is the sound of the cabs rather than the drivers. Bass cab manufacturers insist on building their neo models in thin/light materials. The only 'proper' cabs I know fitted with neos are the AERs. I had a GK lightweight cab here recently and 'lacking authority' is certainly how I'd describe it. The midrange colouration people are complaining about from the Markbass cabs could be due to the same thing, although I suppose some players are more sensitive to colourations than others.

[quote name='jimbobothy' timestamp='1387297129' post='2310416'] Bit of a random point but my 151P was made in March'12 out of MDF whereas my 121H was made in Nov'11 and out of plywood. Odd but they do both sound very nice to my ears! [/quote] That's very useful information. They used to specify poplar ply for the 151P, but I see they don't say anything any more.

Doug Button is always worth reading but I'm afraid mere mortals cannot access that website.

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1387135186' post='2308559'] Quick question. When designing a three way or two way full range system, how do you decide where to cross over? When polar response starts to drop off at the woofer, when SPL drops off, other...? I assume cone size matters here when designing as polar response vs frequency will be different between cone sizes, as pointed out already... [/quote] I agree with Bill on this one. Most drivers have an on-axis response that is wider than their ‘usable’ response - so crossing over where their natural on-axis response drops is normally not a great idea because the drivers are usually well out of their comfort zone by then. Because you and your audience hear a combination of on-axis and off-axis sound from your bass rig, what you want to achieve is a smooth, well-behaved off-axis response that duplicates the on-axis response, although decreasing in level the further you move off-axis. So, if “constant directivity” is your aim, which it should be, a good [i]rule of thumb[/i] is to cross a large speaker over (to a smaller speaker) before its off-axis response has dropped more than, say, 3dB. That’s the ideal I’d aim for, although it’s not etched in stone. There are certainly other factors to take into consideration, but let’s not get too carried away.

Phil, I appreciate that you can put a more complex spin on it, but let’s not compare apples and oranges. Yes, you can make an expensive 15 that will have better midrange than a cheap 10 and you can even make a 10 that has no midrange at all. But it is still the case that (ceteris paribus) large cones are simply not as good at reproducing higher frequencies as smaller cones, and that the larger the cone the lower it tends to break up. By the same token, when a lot of air has to be moved you need a large cone area. It’s the balancing act that makes speaker design so interesting, don’t you think?

I'm pretty sure it's a Fane. Nobody else used those coloured stickers. It's probably an OEM (made for another company and not sold under the Fane brand). Could be 1980s/90s - at a guess.

The other factor that I've never seen anyone mention is that smaller cones have a superior midrange performance to larger cones - given an equivalent technology level, of course. So at mid frequencies (say 500Hz up) a 10 will always have lower distortion, fewer delayed resonances and a higher natural breakup frequency than an equivalent 12 or 15. I think this is probably why many bass players like 10s.

I agree with this, but I'd cross the midrange driver no higher than 1kHz, which is even more expensive, of course.

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1386962165' post='2306982'] The combo seems very well put together; reassuringly weighty for its size [/quote] You must be new around here.

I haven't been there for years, but I always thought they were a friendly and well informed bunch at CC Music. Sorry to hear they may have gone downhill. [but at least they're still in business, which is more than I can say for most of the shops I knew there]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1386871227' post='2305787'] Yes but the cloth was attached to a very thin mdf framee, if i stuck it with velcro i was affraid i might break of fold it in two if i tried to remove it. There wasn't much space to fit a thicker frame and keep the cloth flush with the sides. [/quote] OK.

Yes, that looks better. Couldn't you have used Velcro rather than the screws?

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1386866325' post='2305688'] The handle on them wasn't the best option, even though it was recessed and offered the cab tilt option it would rattle at high volumes. The corners were made of cheap plastic (one of them came broken inside the box) The grill is made of some kind of mesh that usually is used on construction sites. The cab was covered with carpet, the thing all cats love. The feet... er... they don't have feet! So here's a point for EBS! [/quote] So what is it with you and feet? I had an EBS cab once, a 2 x 12". It was very well made out of best quality Finnish birch ply - the really good stuff. The only thing that let it down was that it needed a front-to-back brace running between the drivers and the back panel. Otherwise I couldn't fault it quality-wise. And I'm fussy. The plastic corners are fairly standard issue. They allow for stacking and function as feet. They work well but wouldn't be my first choice either. Neither would the carpet, but neither of those is an issue for most people and couldn't be described as poor quality - just a matter of choice. I found the grille really neat. It's actually fencing, which they've chrome plated. It's a really clever, cheap solution that looks good IMO. Pity about the rattling handle.

[quote name='TG Flatline' timestamp='1386863529' post='2305616'] But that value might not be made up of the same elements (component quality, brand prestige etc), so that definition is meaningless and the quote irrelevant. Shall we agree to disagree? [/quote] Yes, let's agree to disagree. I would be happier if I knew what we were disagreeing about, but still.....

[quote name='TG Flatline' timestamp='1386859237' post='2305490'] You said that being able to tell there was no penny-pinching was a good way to judge the value of a product. How do you penny-pinch when building a speaker cab in any way other than using lower value components? Product value is what the market will pay for it. It really is that simple. [/quote] I'm afraid it's not that simple. If it were, similar products with the same price would by definition offer the same value. As Oscar Wilde said, A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Not the same at all. As far as penny-pinching cab manufacturers are concerned, there are plenty of ways of cutting costs without the customer noticing, at least not until it's too late. Most, although not all, of the bass cabs that have been through my hands had been subjected to over-enthusiastic "value engineering". Lack of bracing, lack of internal damping, cheap, poorly specified drivers, inadequate R&D, incorrectly sized ports, rattling glue joints, - all from highly successful manufacturers I would add. I'm not sure where we're going with this though.....

You've lost me TG.

[quote name='TG Flatline' timestamp='1386855462' post='2305391'] The value of a product is what the consumer will pay for it, it has nothing to do with the summed value of the component parts. [/quote] I didn't say anything about the summed value of the component parts.