stevie

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1389435046' post='2334072'] A 212 would be good. [/quote] One thing at a time..... [quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1389436108' post='2334077'] something based around parts that are easily sourced in the UK/EU would be nice. [/quote] Definitely. [quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1389437504' post='2334097'] My favorite cab ' tone' comes from the Aguilar DB212/DB112. If you can get close to that tone in a lighter smaller box it would be amazing! [/quote] That's the size of cab we have been looking at. I don't see a problem getting close to that tone, but first we have to know what it is (I've never heard one) and, more importantly, what they have done to achieve it. [quote name='funkle' timestamp='1389438364' post='2334104'] There's probably a couple of camps here. Those who want full range, and those who want a more coloured cabinet. [/quote] Transparent is actually easier than coloured because it's impossible to cater for every colour preference.

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1389188801' post='2331046'] I do believe I now own your old MiBass 550 Stevie . I find it plenty loud enough (although I do put it through a 4 ohm cab). I sold an Ashdown ABM 500 to buy the MiBass, and it's at least as loud as that. [/quote] Indeed you do. Which just goes to show that you should always take opinions on here with a pinch of salt, because one of us is wrong (I'm not saying it's not me ).

I had the Mibass 550 Mark 1. I liked the sound of it and loved the eq options (which they have now removed), but mine couldn't punch its way out of a paper bag. As soon as I wanted some heft, it just sighed and sloped off into a corner. It may have been the particular sample I had, but I thought it worth mentioning, as I expect the power stage is the same on Version 2.0.

The ideal volume for two of those drivers is about 50 litres - so I'm not sure what's going on there. If the box is tuned to 70 or 80Hz, that's not very good either. As far as internal damping is concerned, you need to line more than just the back panel. Just keep the foam well away from the ports.

I sold Armando a power amp. The entire transaction went without a hitch and communication was excellent. Nice bloke.

[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1387562472' post='2313465'] I go for cones that do me good. Not fussed about size. [/quote] You sound like my wife (bless her).

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1387493877' post='2312765'] I'd like to know models of these, if you'd be happy enough to point me in the right direction? As a relative newbie to this I'd like to be able to look at the driver spec sheets...if I can... Again, did you have specific models in mind? (I've just bought some books on loudspeaker design and I'm trying to absorb more info on the subject.) [/quote] Just a quickie (I'll continue this discussion another time - some interesting comments being made) - check out the catalogues from these manufacturers, who are the BMW/Mercedes of the speaker world at the moment: 18Sound, B&C, Beyma, BMS, Faital, RCF. These companies also make very good compression drivers. There are other companies making very good speakers but these guys have an in-depth range and some state-of-the-art designs (3,200 watt 18s, for example). JBL drivers are excellent, but you can't buy them as a consumer, and companies like Ciare and Precision Devices make some very good stuff but don't have such a wide product range.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1387489919' post='2312715'] Funnily enough I've just been tweaking exactly this region in a mix. But Ive flip-flopped on midrange drivers and now I think I favour two-way, only using nicer comp drivers that go adequately low not to leave a big dispersion hole. I actually like the 1-2kHz region from a nice 10 or 12" PA driver for bass. I've got several Celestion drivers and they all sound really good in this region IMO. [/quote] Yes, I know exactly where you're coming from. To do it properly with a compression driver you need either an expensive 1" (like an Italian one or a BMS) or preferably a 1.4". Then you have to find a nice-sounding horn. Unless you really need that 5-10kHz response, a cone driver will do as good a job, go lower, and be a lot cheaper (if you ignore the cost of the crossover ). I've often wondered what a 2" compression driver would sound like with bass - with the right horn, of course. Awesome, I expect. Tens and twelves can certainly sound really nice in that area also (and some of the Celestions I've tried have sounded wonderful), but they can't get round the beaming problem.

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1387489181' post='2312707'] I can't say Ive hunted the earth, but I have not come across 12" drivers that will do +/-10mm clean excursion as measured by any method that also give similar midrange sensitivity and extension as Alex claims for his (and I for one am happy to take his figures at face value). The ones with comparable linear travel weigh a lot even with neo magnets. The dispersion tends to narrow lower down on the long-excursion, big voicecoil diam subs too, which goes back to the original topic - cone construction. [/quote] Faital do a 12 with a specified 9.5mm excursion, although it's winding depth - magnetic gap depth) / 2 + (magnetic gap depth / 3. You can get them from Blue Aran. No need for 2 years R&D (yes, call me cynical if you like). The model number is 12HP1020. [quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1387489181' post='2312707'] Although I think the Eminence KL series were nothing special by today's standards, it seems to me like Alex has a genuine USP with the new line. For PA it makes more sense to separate sub from mid-bass anyway so the goals are a little different. But yes, the standard (and eye-wateringly expensive) B&C drivers in all those big PA boxes sound pretty good to me. [/quote] I still rate the Eminence Kappalite LFs for the money. The bass/mids are a bit meh but still better than what you find in 90% of bass cabs. I agree, Alex seems to be using a very good driver.

Interesting. I know those midrange units and they don't by any stretch of the imagination go up to 15kHz - although they go plenty high enough. There's not much energy from the bass above 4kHz - so I wouldn't worry about power handling. You'll be fine with the Celestions. The original Audax units were quality drivers, but Celestion are making good stuff nowadays and I'm sure you'll be pleased if you fit them.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074'] Because of the way we work with Thiele/Small equations and the programs like WinISD that run them we tend to concentrate on this a lot, but our ears are so much more sensitive to what is going on in the 1-5kHz (midrange) and we tend collectively to gloss over that a bit. [/quote] I couldn't agree more! The 1-2kHz region is absolutely crucial to the sound of the bass guitar (as the recording experts will no doubt confirm). Yet when we play live, most bass cabs are unable to reproduce that area properly. I'm a great believer in having a separate midrange driver to take care of the upper mids. [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074'] This is my real bugbear coming from designing hi-fi speakers, I'm not convinced there's a lot of design going into commercially available drive units, There's a lot of over damped, low excursion drivers where they seem to have just stuck a bigger magnet on a cheaper design without considering the use for which the driver is intended, Just a marketing opportunity with no need to re-tool. Speakers recommended as bass drivers which are just unsuitable due to under damping, huge Vas values and low excursion and of course little control over the cone's behaviour under break up, with some Eminence units having 9dB peaks with very sharp peaks and troughs in the frequency response showing little damping of cone resonance. [/quote] You're speaking my language, Phil. Some of the drivers I've seen in big-name cabs are just embarrassing. But if people want cheap, that's what they get. [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1387279120' post='2310074']It seems as if Alex Claber is having some input into the design of his drive units, that's a luxury I'd love to have. [/quote] Yes, well, we know that Alex is big on hyperbole (hi Alex! ). What input do you want? The premium drive units, the very best that the drive unit manufacturers can produce and the ones that the big companies like Meyer, QSC, Clair, EAW, Nexo, Martin etc. use, are all standard models that are available to you as a consumer.

The Monacor isn't sensitive enough. You'd be better off with the cheaper Celestion, which is likely to be better quality anyway. I have a couple of Fane Studio 5Ms (on cast chassis) which last retailed at about £80 each, which will outperform both of them and which I could sell you for less than the cost of a pair of Celestions as I don't need them any more. £40 delivered - how's that? They go up to 8kHz (not that you really need it). However, if you really want to replace all four - get the Celestions. I can't help you with the crossover frequency, unfortunately.

Good, but not a patch on Mr Hanky the Christmas poo.

Ashdown's customer service is amazing. I emailed them once with a problem and had an answer from the MD within 20 minutes. Most companies seem to bin emails nowadays. Or charge you premium rate to call them. Keep it up, Ashdown. People notice!

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387362651' post='2311023'] wouldn't rule that out...but for the fact that the SWR goliath jnr cab was traditional build and I blew the PAS speakers and put 2510's in them. People tell this is a great refit, but I didn't like the harder edge ... and also I think the cab needed a retune of ports...which I probably wasn't up for at the time. [/quote] I don't think you got very good advice when you bought the 2510s - they have a horrible 10dB peak at 2kHz which is accompanied by all kinds of nasties. I'm not surprised you didn't like them.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1387313190' post='2310656'] The cabs...sound harsh/hard at low volumes and NEO, classically.... and people will insist there isn't a NEO sound, but all the NEO's I've used sound same-ish. They have no problem handling the volumes so much, but lack authority, IMO. [/quote] I reckon what you're probably noticing is the sound of the cabs rather than the drivers. Bass cab manufacturers insist on building their neo models in thin/light materials. The only 'proper' cabs I know fitted with neos are the AERs. I had a GK lightweight cab here recently and 'lacking authority' is certainly how I'd describe it. The midrange colouration people are complaining about from the Markbass cabs could be due to the same thing, although I suppose some players are more sensitive to colourations than others.

[quote name='jimbobothy' timestamp='1387297129' post='2310416'] Bit of a random point but my 151P was made in March'12 out of MDF whereas my 121H was made in Nov'11 and out of plywood. Odd but they do both sound very nice to my ears! [/quote] That's very useful information. They used to specify poplar ply for the 151P, but I see they don't say anything any more.

Doug Button is always worth reading but I'm afraid mere mortals cannot access that website.

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1387135186' post='2308559'] Quick question. When designing a three way or two way full range system, how do you decide where to cross over? When polar response starts to drop off at the woofer, when SPL drops off, other...? I assume cone size matters here when designing as polar response vs frequency will be different between cone sizes, as pointed out already... [/quote] I agree with Bill on this one. Most drivers have an on-axis response that is wider than their ‘usable’ response - so crossing over where their natural on-axis response drops is normally not a great idea because the drivers are usually well out of their comfort zone by then. Because you and your audience hear a combination of on-axis and off-axis sound from your bass rig, what you want to achieve is a smooth, well-behaved off-axis response that duplicates the on-axis response, although decreasing in level the further you move off-axis. So, if “constant directivity” is your aim, which it should be, a good [i]rule of thumb[/i] is to cross a large speaker over (to a smaller speaker) before its off-axis response has dropped more than, say, 3dB. That’s the ideal I’d aim for, although it’s not etched in stone. There are certainly other factors to take into consideration, but let’s not get too carried away.

Phil, I appreciate that you can put a more complex spin on it, but let’s not compare apples and oranges. Yes, you can make an expensive 15 that will have better midrange than a cheap 10 and you can even make a 10 that has no midrange at all. But it is still the case that (ceteris paribus) large cones are simply not as good at reproducing higher frequencies as smaller cones, and that the larger the cone the lower it tends to break up. By the same token, when a lot of air has to be moved you need a large cone area. It’s the balancing act that makes speaker design so interesting, don’t you think?

I'm pretty sure it's a Fane. Nobody else used those coloured stickers. It's probably an OEM (made for another company and not sold under the Fane brand). Could be 1980s/90s - at a guess.

The other factor that I've never seen anyone mention is that smaller cones have a superior midrange performance to larger cones - given an equivalent technology level, of course. So at mid frequencies (say 500Hz up) a 10 will always have lower distortion, fewer delayed resonances and a higher natural breakup frequency than an equivalent 12 or 15. I think this is probably why many bass players like 10s.

I agree with this, but I'd cross the midrange driver no higher than 1kHz, which is even more expensive, of course.

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1386962165' post='2306982'] The combo seems very well put together; reassuringly weighty for its size [/quote] You must be new around here.