EBS_freak

Perfect. You amp is a monitor, nothing else. At which point, I would argue that an equivalent priced wedge (or IEM setup) would be even better!

Key to a good band sound - low stage volume (or at least being quieter than the PA and the backline and drums being far away enough from the vocal mics to avoid bleed (especially from the cymbals on the drums). Any soundman worth their salt with a handful of toys at their disposal, will be able to do way, way better than you could achieve with just backline. Compressors, EQs, gates, notch filters... I never understand why bands work so hard to not work alongside the sound engineer. Mind you, there are some proper cack sound engineers out there.

Depends upon the amp but typically, it would remove the pre entirely from the equation. If you want the "valve" like pre, then a valve DI is a more expensive alternative. I wouldn't bother with that either at this level, if you've got a capable desk. When you consider what you can get in the world of PA, I don't know why people get so worked up about maintaining their tone - the processing on modern desks are far more powerful than what you would find in any traditional bass amp. (e.g. compressors, multiband compressors, 4 band parametric EQ with HPF and LPF... and thats before you get into saturation (e.g. valve) emulations and exciters and the like). Try playing around with the amp emulator on your X-Air if you are craving more saturation in your sound. Be careful of over saturation though! Little is good, too much can lead to distortion and too much mid range harmonics (it'll also rob you of low end). Here's the thing, if you can get your bass sounding like you want from the desk alone, (I can't see why you wouldn't - assuming you are running a pretty simple setup) you are onto a massive winner. Get your volume on stage lower and everything will sound much, much better out front.

"My bass sound in the pa isn't as good as my backline, not as punchy and defined. I use a pretty flat eq on my amp, just tweaking to suit the room. Quite a few effects and I di from the amp." As stated above, the sound that you get from your amp on stage is a combination of EQ, any baked in sound of the amp itself and the influence of the sound of the speaker cab. I am not a post eq DI fan per se from a traditional amp, I would still send the signal to the board pre EQ and then doing any processing at the desk (typically tone shaping, compression and maybe add a touch of saturation). Your on stage tone is your onstage tone. You outfront tone is your outfront tone. What you want to hear on stage can be very different to what is ideal FoH so treat them independently. With regards to those that run loads of effects, then yeah, you want to get the effects in the feed to the PA - but personally, I would still remove the colouration of the speaker cabs... but like many things, this is all subjective. Some people like to dial in EQ, some people like cab emulation devices. It's all down to personal preference and what works for you. I actually run two desks - one for IEM monitors and one for front of house, for reasons that I have hinted at above. With two desks, I can EQ every instruments differently for front of house and monitors, different processing, different compression and fx etc. If you don't have all these lines of processing, you will be compromising somewhere... but in reality, as long as people can hear themselves on stage so that they can play, an aux with just one EQ over the top to help prevent feedback is what most people can cope with. The Aux fed sub is a good technique - and probably also worth mentioning, that you don't actually want a lot going through your subs at all. In fact, You may end up HPFing your bass around 80Hz to stop things getting swampy (remember, a 80hz HPF is not a fixed cutouff, you get a slope (typically 24dB/octave) so you still get some bass in the subs but not as much as you'd think. Number one problem with subs is that people tend to push too much through them and it ends up destroying the mix - I'm guessing that this is where your "not as defined" bass problem is coming from. Certainly a decent PA should outdefine and out punch a traditional backline no sweat. Depending what your tops are, switching to 80 on the crossover will probably help you clear up any swampiness - if thats a problem... and that's before you reach for the desk. Remember, little bits of EQ, focusing on cuts as opposed to boosts. Certainly you'll want to calm the top end, also some cut around 2-5k and try a HPF at 100 and work down until the bass starts to get a little swampy. You'll find the sweet spot for your setup. But remember! This will change for every room that you are in... but at this point, you should be primarily reaching for the master EQ on that main outputs to compensate for the room. Once you've got your EQ sorted for your instruments, they shouldn't really change from gig to gig.

Now these could be a good bet for a cheaper universal inear for people dipping their toe in - https://www.revonext.com/en/product/QT3-Quad-Drivers-In-Ear-Headphone-66.html Dual dynamics and a double armature top. Theoretically, these should be a very nice piece, especially in the lows. Can't find a graph for them at the moment though, but the QT2s review very favourably.

All these great bass tones that we talk about... there's a high probability that they have been wiped out in a studio recording, same with live. Any uber lows are likely going to be coming from harmonic synthesisers anyway... (along with super big subs - running 30 hz at serious volumes is a surefire way to kill a speaker for sure). Heard a great bass tone live? Probability the cab cant reproduce 30hz anyway... all it's been hpf along the chain. Alot of subs won't even go down to 30hz until you are into serious pro territory... and thats more about air movement and feel as opposed to what it can give you tonally. For example, big and low subs are usually the reserve of theatres as opposed to music. It will be interesting if Al does get a 30hz cab... so then he'll searching for a way to hpf to clean up the muddier than mud tone he has suddenly found himself with.

But Sky's version is in the studio. Was any live performance captured... and did the inclusion of 30hz make or break the performance... and was it the bass guitar that was getting down there?

Ah yes, that band classic. Of course, the only reason that we don’t hear it being played in pub bands is because that 30hz is unachievable with most bands equipment!

Are you sure? Name them.

How many pieces of popular music can you name where the piano player is lurking around the bottom 5 keys? And how about in a band situation...?

This thread is completely baffling. 30Hz on stage. No thanks. 30hz out front - mud city.

Think you missed my point - we do care... and we care a lot... and in reality, we probably care more than we should - because the punters wouldn't know the difference between a good bass sound or not! If all bass tones sounded great through all gear, than the prospect of just turning up and plugging into whatever is amazing... but as individuals, we've grown to care about the sounds that we are producing. re:RCF : How well does it handle low end? Depends upon your definition of low end. Doesn't do sub bass very well (as in 50 and below stuff). It doesn't do 30hz full stop. Not entirely sure you would want it to either. 50hz is probably around the limit of the useful range for a band - with your kick drum sitting around 65. Will it do it at a decent volume - yes. Will it do it at full tilt? Well, you'd probably want a bit of support. What I will say though, is put a 735 against your typical equivalently priced bass cab (especially if you can find one that can put out 30hz (also remembering that alot of bass heads HPF to keep the amp from being pressed for largely unusable frequencies also!) and report back.

Of course, the reality of the situation is that we shouldn't really care, we just plug in to whats available... a bonus if we didn't have to carry it to the gig and back.

Ah yeah - they've stopped shipment to the UK at the moment as they are having trouble fulfilling orders to the UK at the moment. If you are ordering a number, it may be worth dropping them a line to see if you can appeal to their kinder nature... otherwise, you are going to have to look at one of the US to UK shipping brokers... pain in the backside I know. Dont suppose you know anybody in the States?

Sometimes it's a wonder that we ever get to play at all with all this to worry about!

I would phone you and talk you through this... but I suspect you wouldn't be able to hear me over your tinnitus.

Whilst talking about tone... It’s not all about eq - some guys may want to look into saturation - this isn’t overdrive or destitution per se, in fact, if you perceive it as such, you have gone too far. The saturation effectively excites the harmonics and can give your bass a lot more “being there”, than just eq alone. Your ears are getting bamboozled and all of a sudden, your bass tone will just sound massive in comparison.

For those interested... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_fundamental

Most speakers cant produce the lows at significant volume at the fundamental (e.g. consider the fundamental for a low B) . You generally hear all the harmonics and overtones - and the fundamental of your bass is suggested by your brain (pyschoacoustics in action!)... hence whilst cutting the bass through you PA in the sub frequencies can actually clean up the sound of your bass and make it sound bigger and more controlled when the fundamental isn't actually there!

You band doesn't have a particularly warm sound I take it - what sort of music are you playing?

@intime-nick?

Just don’t mention the feet.

Are you sure it’s not you looking at it incorrectly?

Ha! If only!

It's lazy - the problem is that jam nights are not usually full of the randoms, it's the same people going week in, week out, playing the same old tunes, no variation. It's actually a very damaging environment to be in if you want to progress as a musician. It wouldnt be too much of an ask to get together a list of new tunes so people can properly jam through them the following week... it never happens. Why? Because it's effort... and mostly, nobody can be arsed to sit down for half an hour to look through some new chord sequences.... it's all about the stupid, pointless pentatonic noodling at volume... for what seems like an endless duration... especially when said soloists have blown all their fireworks in the first six bars.