EBS_freak

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1479204285' post='3174669'] I believe the FOH sound is great according to various reviews, it's just the volume/muddiness on stage that is an issue. For the record we use an analogue Allan & Heath Mixwizard 16:2 analogue desk and have QSC rig comprising of a KW112 top & K Sub each side. The desk definitely has HPF options and I'll be looking at using those on the next gig, especially on all vocal mics. We have no noise gate (AFAIK) for the drums, which are mic'ed on bass drum, snare/hi-hat & then overhead for rest of the kit. It's only in the last year or two that we've had problems with onstage volume, coincidentally since we changed to powered subs instead of passive driven from a power amp. I always put it down to the guitarists hearing going, he's the only one who has never worn earplugs in the 20 years we've been playing! [/quote] Not that I know you are using K Subs - I'm quite surprised because they aren't overly loud or deep - so you should be able to get the useful lows (around the 60 hz) fairly tight. I'm pretty convinced with what you are saying that your problems lie with not using the HPFs on your desk. The HPF on your desk is set at 80Hz, so I would be putting that switch in for pretty much every channel... but you may have to leave it disengaged for the bass - use your ears to listen if theres too much mud...but I would expect you to have to cut the lows on the channel if it's getting too muddy. I'm guessing that they are more efficient than what they have replaced... so it may be down to the fact that the same mix results in a lot more mud than what you would have got with your previous system. That desk also has a mono feed from aux 6 so you could experiment with an aux fed sub - but remember, you would be sending full signal to your tops - so they may get overwhelmed with bass... so you could try splitting the input into two channels, one EQed for the tops (with a HPF) and not sent to the subs (via aux) and one EQed specifically for the subs. If you aren't running a gate for your kick drum, that is the number one upgrade that you could do for your system. If you want to get more out of your system together, then consider adding a compressor to your kick also... but ideally, you'd want compressors on your mics to bring them under control also. (Keeping it cheap (100 quid ish), DBX compressor gate... Samson, Phonic , Alesis 1u rack units could sort your boomy kick drum and make it sound really tight)... however, before you start spending too much, remember that buying a 4 or 5 of these would get you a digital desk... and a lot less to carry. But certainly, if you wanted to make one change to your system to tighten up the sound, the gated bass drum is it - it will cut out all the reverb and mush that is bouncing around inside the drum that will be picked up by the mic. Besides that, I would wager it's also your bass to blame, so instead of looking to boost the lows, cut the lows and boost the mids... you'll be surpised how much low end rumble comes out of subs compared to a standard bass cab. Have you got any monitors (e.g. wedges, drum sidefills) on the go?

The sub fed aux is a good call - although I wager that largo should stick with his existing setup as if the concept of HPF hasn't been mastered, the problem is going to be transferred to the tops - which will cause it's own problems as those tops are suddenly going to start struggling... and yes, there would need to be a crossover in the setup - or at least a LPF and HPF situation - but if the OP is already struggling, I would suggest he he should get the basics down before complicating matters with an aux fed sub. I'm yet to see one of the cheaper digital desks best a decent inbuilt crossover where the slopes crossover nicely. Yeah, you can go down the external speaker management system - but I would argue thats more complexity. Should say though, aux fed sub systems are awesome... but conversely, there are loads of amazing sounding PAs out there, which aren't being driven by aux fed subs. In short, if the system sounds bad now, thinking that aux fed subs are going to improve things is wrong - there's something more fundamentally wrong at this stage.

[quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1479141640' post='3174271'] Sometimes.......even if it seems like madness.......turn the subs off and just use the tops. Take everything out of the PA bar keys and vox and maybe just a tiny amount of kick drum. Just use the backline and turn it all down. [/quote] Get out. Ha ha.

If you are having problems like this, its probably the sub lows that are mushing everything up. HPF pretty much everything at least 50Hz as a starting point. If you are still getting swamped, then start increasing the point of the HPF until you can cope on stage. If you are getting swamped and you are playing in a fairly small compact environment, there's going to be a hell of a lot of reflections and bass traps to contend with. Just because your subs go low doesn't mean that you should chose to mix those lows in - the room may not thank you for it and punish you with mush. As long as you still have circa 60 hz in the frame for the kick drum, you can get away with HPFing the bass a bit higher... You may not get the fundamental but you'll get the overtones and you'll be heard a lot clearer and without the sub mush. In fact, your band may suddenly sound a lot tighter because of it. Most popular bass amps will actually shelve the lows for this exact reason - and the DI out will send the "unshelved" signal to the PA. If you are miking the kit... make sure you are using gates. This is CRITICAL. The bass drum is going to get everything muddy very quickly without using one... the shorter you can make the gate open and close without making the kick sound off, the cleaner your mix is going to be. Same applies to the toms but you'll need a longer gate... that floor tom mic is going to be adding mud to the mix and all of the tom mics are going to be picking up the bass drum... so if you can gate them off when they are not in use, perfect. I've started to use a drum trigger on the bass drum to help in this department because you can get an isolated kick sound without picking up a load of crap... however... if you are playing stuff where your drummer is playing a lot of ghost notes, the trigger isn't going to get the intricacies of this. To get around this, you may want to use both a mic and trigger... but you can be really be savage with the eq on this front as you don't particularly want mega sub lows on a ghost kick because it would get all mushed up and inaudible anyway. (so in short, you are miking the overtones of the kick, not the fundamental, so you can hear the ghost notes but not necessarily feel them out front - perfect). Having said all this, a bass mic and gate should be your first port of call. We could talk about cardioid sub arrays but I guess you haven't got three subs with this feature? You shouldn't need foam and the like... but you may want to try putting your subs on pallets if you think that you are getting too much coupling. You may need to spend a bit of time figuring out where you want to sit in the mix... for example, bass and kick will fight with each other unless you eq them both appropriately. Keys and bass will fight... Guitar and keys will fight... and of course once all that is good, your vocals have got to sit clearly on the top - which reminds me, make sure these are HPF pretty high - I tend to take vocals over 100Hz+ to keep the sub out of the vocal mics. Drums are a bitch - they seem to be picked up by every open mic going... as do sub bass frequencies (thats why HPF is so important) And if you are running your subs low and hard - it's no wonder your 1x10s can't keep up! PS - I am assuming you are either running a digital desk or have an analogue desk with appropriate outboard to do all this!

If you are looking for something like Warmoth... I know there's nothing on the site but it may be worth dropping [url="https://www.guitarbuild.co.uk/"]https://www.guitarbuild.co.uk/[/url] a line. Otherwise you may want to drop one of your local luthiers a line. Wenge is not going to be a common off the shelf neck - as you have probably discovered!

I would wager that the HPF has done the trick over the choice of mic. The mics are important but it's actually quite difficult to buy an unusable bass drum mic nowadays. Yes, something like the D6 will get you a desirable eq pretty much out the box... but with a digital desk with the powerful eqs available to you, you can make pretty much any mic and kick drum sound pretty fat and pleasing to the ear. You may have more issues if you are using an analogue desk where you haven't got as much flexibility in the EQ (e.g. fixed frequency point, fixed q :-/ )

Use a hairdryer to tighten the grill cloth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGM781nR2M Masterful.

I know it may be against the DIY ethos... but have you tried sourcing a cheap airbrush (probably one of those aerosol powered ones) and flake attachment?

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1478640793' post='3170604'] Only if they're d&b. [/quote] Thought as much.

[quote name='Higgie' timestamp='1478611044' post='3170265'] Can anyone with one of these tell me - If using with a MIDI Controller, do you have to use the MIDI output? Or can you plug a MIDI Keyboard into the input, then take the normal jack out and run through an amp? [/quote] The way I understand it, is that you use the midi controller to drive the synth and the output comes from the audio output that you would plug into the amp. In and out only need to be used when using the editor - this seems to be confirmed here - http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pandamidi-future-impact Annoyingly, the MIDI input doesn't seem to allow for patch changes, only note trigger and firmware update.

[quote name='Rik (ESA)' timestamp='1478556953' post='3169941'] I LOVE THIS FORUM! Thanks all for the tips, plenty to have a play about with here. I've been looking at an audix d6 for a while as it happens, but want to give the mic we have a shot before discarding it too hastily because of my lack of knowledge. That said though, it's one of those all in one cheapy drum mic sets, and tha gets what tha pays for more often than not! [/quote] You should be able to get some good results from the bass drum mic that you are using because you have some fairly powerful eq at your fingertips. The D6 is great because even through mixing consoles with limited EQ at your fingertips, it'll will get you in the ballpark with zero/minimal twiddling. It's defo worthwhile sticking with your exiting mic until you can at least get something in the ballpark - because you do have the flexible EQ available to you. The thing with kick drum though - is to nail that gate setting.

[quote name='Lw.' timestamp='1478540700' post='3169745'] Let's not even get started on the number of fish-fingers in a box! [/quote] I know!! Grr. I suspect downsizing package contents will become the norm!

I suspect a lot of companies are taking the opportunity for a spot of profiteering... even Walkers crisps are considering a price hike of 12% on good manufactured in the UK... but of course, Walkers is owned by Pepsico, so there's an argument about strength against the company's native currency... You can guarantee what ever happens re:europe and the value of the pound, any return to the strength of the pound will never be reflected in the price of goods in the UK. If only we grew the potatoes that they use for Walkers crisps in the UK... Their response? It's because they import the oil and seasoning... Can you imagine Apple reversing the price hikes on their Macs?

[quote name='JPJ' timestamp='1478538270' post='3169711'] I like the op look after our live sound, but I'm not a sound engineer. For a good drum sound, I've found a good hard gate to get rid of any after ring, followed by running the drums through a little bit of reverb just to warm them back up a little gives me the best result in 95% of the venues we play. As to crossover points, I prefer something in the 100-120 area, but as I use a pseudo crossover on our Behringer X-Air (combination of a high pass and a low pass on the mains and one aux, running the subs from the low passed aux out) I have the best control over the balance of the rig, much better imho than when we used a dedicated crossover. As with all these things, you have to first know what your gear can/cant do, and then experiment until you find something that works for you. [/quote] Reverb on snare is cool - but I would never advocate reverb on a bass drum! - one way ticket to mushville! Funnily enough - with most digital desks, you can see the higher and lower thresholds of reverb frequencies - so for example, on a snare, you'd get reverb on the mid to high end for the nice "airy" reverb, but can cut it so that the bassier elements of the snare don't get any 'verb applied. So yeah, same thoughts apply to floor tom with reverb - don't go mad! Hats especially, you actually want some definition in all those hits!

The best for what? Tone, volume, looks, ruggedness, weight, size, resale, bragging rights...? Given that a lot of the above are subjective, I wouldn't trust any answer that is given to you. I'm sure both camps have very happy customers.

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1478525985' post='3169603'] clearly he wasn't there to witness the impact they made [/quote] Not the whole "Paul is dead" thing...

http://yankee.com.pl/?lang=en

Even Paul is having second thoughts...

In addition to what has already been said on the thread, I would actually advise against using presets. I've yet to find a digital desk where the presets are anywhere near where I would want them to be. Desk manufacturers cannot begin to guess what mics are going to be in play, so it seems more of a selling point to con people into thinking that they are simple "push the button" solutions - which of course they aren't. The key to getting a good mix is spending some time to getting your ears used to frequencies. Don't be afraid to experiment - again, I would say it's worth hiring a room for the day just to play and get your sound as tight as it can be. Looking at moonbass response, theres a couple of things that you can do to make life easier. First is, look at your mic. If you want a mic that will instantly get you in the ballpark, check out the Audix D6... its the most dishonest drum mic out there, with a response that is pretty much where you would want your EQ to be. I understand that quite a considerable investment, especially if you have a drum mic already. So here's the key frequencies... Boost 65Hz with quite a wide bandwidth (check the "q" setting on your eq) - but for your subs, HPF at about 45-50 Hz (Again must stress that this is not a formula - you must use your ears). Moonbass is right about the boxiness- so follow those tips. For click, you've got a couple of good options - 1 find the click using the eq... but you can artificially enhance the click using the credit card trick - which is literally taping a credit card loosely to the the area where the beater hits... so you'll get the natural click and the click of the credit card. I'm not a big click fan but plenty of people are - so this may get you where you want to be with minimal hassle... especially if you are having difficulty picking out the frequencies. Mic placement is key - a lot of people simply chuck a bass drum mic in the bass drum and expect a great sound. Unlikely to happen. Your sound is going to be a lot tighter if you aren't picking up all the sound bounding around inside the drum... so you may want to invest in a bass drum mic stand if you haven't already, and place it closer to the exterior of the drum. Again, the exact positioning depends upon the mic and the drum itself. Oh yeah, make sure your bass drum is tuned - thats going to be a helpful start! Compressing the hell and above all (this is the number one) applying a gate to the kick is where you are really going to start tightening up your drum sound. I've looked into the gate thing briefly and it would appear your mixer has a gate available on all channels - but it may require a firmware update if it hasn't. Again, literally just a quick read on my phone. I'd be very surprised if a gate has been overlooked as it's pretty much an essential tool when micing up a drum kit. Oh - worth mentioning... don't go to crazy on the compression or you may get a lock where you pretty much get instant feedback... and the floor tom may trigger that. As for me micing the bass drum now? Well... I'm quite anal about getting the perfect bass drum sound... so I went into a studio, recorded the bass drum in various situations using different mics. Then I played with the EQ, sub bass, enhancers and everything to get my perfect bass drum sample. I set up my PA in a dead room and fine tuned til I got it where I wanted to be. From venue to venue now, the tweaks are minimal if anything at all. What do I do with this sample? I simply trigger that. None of the problems associated with micing up a bass drum, an open mic removed off stage and nobody can understand why I can get get peoples bass drums sounding so mentally good. So now you know. Again, this is probably over kill for most people - as it's a lot more expensive to do this than but a bass drum mic! The rest of the kit is miced up traditionally. And no, you can't have my bass drum sample!

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1478507964' post='3169432'] Sorry to hijack this thread a little, but do you recommend putting a HPF on everything? We run vocals,keys,sax,drums and bass through our PA. Should we put a HPF on all of them? [/quote] Depends on how good your subs are... but probably yes - but it depends if you can specify at which point the HPF is set. For an analogue desk with a fixed HPF of say 100hz... well, that isn't going to help your kick drum... but if you can HPF your kick at say 40-50hz, given your chest thumping fundamental happens at about 65Hz, you'll suddenly start tightening up your subs and making them more efficient.

[quote name='ahpook' timestamp='1478305694' post='3168392'] George was the coolest, btw. [/quote] Yes, that George Martin was a legend.

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1478271723' post='3168090'] That looks like the one. So, just double checking. The power supply doesn't have to be rated at 150mA? Will it only draw the current it requires? [/quote] Correct. Same principle applies with fx pedals... you can keep daisy chaining power to run multiple pedals off one supply but if you attempt to draw more power than the PSU can supply, your pedals will start behaving like they've all run out of batteries!

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1478269473' post='3168066'] Sorry, my big mistake. Note to self: engage brain before operating iPad. [/quote] To be honest, the link doesn't make for clear reading!

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1478268420' post='3168054'] But what about his brother Bryan? [/quote] He's out at the Tickled Trout that day.