EBS_freak

[quote name='Les' timestamp='1477131290' post='3160008'] Still looking at IEM but a quick question, most, even the cheap ones seem to be stereo. I'd have though the monitor sends on most desks were mono but I'm not 100% on this. I understand you could use 2 aux's to get a stereo mix but how do you achieve mono ? If you just chuck a mono lead from your aux to your transmitter do you just end up with it in one ear ? Sorry if I'm being daft here. [/quote] You can switch between mono and stereo operating modes - so even if you just plug in one cable, it sums to monos and comes out left and right in your ear buds.

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477124602' post='3159955'] surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course [/quote] I've never heard a drum kit in a band situation with an unmiced kick sound any good. It's either boxy or unable to be heard. The kick drum underpins the music - it needs to be good. I guess it's all down to what we are prepared to put up with. Your drummer needs a side wedge to hear what going on, or IEMs -and is likely to hear what is going on better this way than highly directional guitar amps pointing away from them. As for big backline - that's fine. Just let the PA do the work. If the guitarist is arguing that it needs to be turned up to get the tone, slap him. There's a reason that bands use big amps for visuals and end up moving up small combos behind the scenes.

[quote name='LewisK1975' timestamp='1477057596' post='3159580'] I've recently made the switch to having no amp on stage and using in-ears. Last on my pedalboard is a Sansamp para driver, that, together with the mixer controls, takes care of everything necessary to get a good out front sound, and I get a controllable, comfortable mix direct to my ears. Lovely. [/quote] Glad you are enjoying it dude!

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1477066070' post='3159678'] I'm prepared to do all the work necessary to provide the best show possible [/quote] Well done that man. A pride in one's work.

The change in tension is more likely to impact your truss rod. With regards to your intonation and action, that will change if you are changing the gauge. In short, when changing strings, do all three... although the truss rod change is less likely to be required if you stick to the same set of strings. PS it's not uncommon to need truss rod tweaks throughout the year (especially if you play with a low action) as the wood changes with the weather... so to speak.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477065853' post='3159675'] A digital mixer can be had for around £200 with all the features mentioned above, it will also save room in the guitarists car compared to a typical 1000 watt euro desk [/quote] The good old XR12

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477064728' post='3159660'] As Dad says. "The correct solution" is to tune the bass drum correctly. [/quote] Doesn't mean sh1t if nobody can hear it.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477061631' post='3159629'] Man alive! That's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. What kind of gigs are you guys playing? Someone suggests they might like a little bit more prescence from the bass drum and we're into triggers. Madness. Take a step back guys. [/quote] I play all sorts of gigs - and have a pride in my sound. Why is everybody always content with "it'll do"? You've clearly invested in your backline... so why shouldn't the drummer invest in his/her's too? A bass drum mic is the correct solution if you have access to the appropriate processing... if you haven't got the appropriate processing, then a kick drum mic is invitation to blow tops - I wouldn't recommend it through your 10s for example. If you have got eq and compression as a minimum on your desk, then jobs a goodun. But I still wouldn't expect great results through 10s. If the poster hasn't got the above, it's going to be cheaper than buying a decent kick drum mic, the outboard to process it properly - or a digital desk. The trigger and module will get you immediate results, with no feedback, no bleed and also not cause trauma to your PA. In fact, in terms of getting reliable results every time at every venue, it's probably more simple than your bass drum mic.

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477059533' post='3159600'] Thanks for that suggestion [/quote] Leroy - you actually may want to look into a triggered kick - say a Roland RT30k and a TM2. This will give you the sound of a compressed, eqed, bleed free kick but without the hassle of running outboard, or some sort of digital desk. It will actually sound a lot better than most people's efforts at getting a decent live kick sound also. Also means your drummer can carry around a tiddler of a kick drum too.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477056117' post='3159566'] The guitarist owns the PA. 2x10" tops. They are physically 30% possibility more, of the size of the same 15" tops and a lot lighter. FACT. The specs are on the website. He has to fit them and his guitar amp and monitors in his car and load it all in and out at his home. [/quote] This is a completely different argument. Logistics of getting the gear to the gig is not the same discussion as comparing the merits of the band going through the PA or not through the PA.

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477057906' post='3159584'] If anything, I would like a little more oomph from the kick drum and have considered micing it up through a separate powered cab, situated beside the drums and facing the audience. (I would appreciate any comments regarding such an arrangements) [/quote] That concept is fine - it's pretty much how a "aux-fed sub" would work - although you would ideally want to have some compression, maybe a gate and some eq to get the most out of that cab.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477054147' post='3159547'] I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now. [/quote] Idiot.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477050819' post='3159508'] One of mine tunes up between every song.. Drives me mental... [/quote] Not heard of prestretching the strings then?

And talking of TURNING up... Why do singers always turn up AFTER all the gear has been lugged in?

Sorry. Misread the title. I thought it was "Guitarist TURNING up:... Don't they all? All the time? They need their little amp knob twiddling fingers sawn off.

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477047294' post='3159455'] So can I can paraphrase the last zillion posts.. "We do this and it's great" "We don't do that, it's sh*t, we do this, it's great" "We still think it's great" "You're a stupid face" :-) [/quote] I reckon I can get the underlying tone nailed too... "You're an idiot." "No. You're an idiot." "I understand what you are saying but you're an idiot." "I don't care what you said, even if it works because you're an idiot."

If in doubt... kemper the amps!

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1477044582' post='3159414'] Whoah guys, there's more than one way to skin a cat. There isn't a one size fits all solution to a question like this, it's more a question of what you gain and what you lose. I'm as techie as you get but we shouldn't forget the squishy organic bits of a band either, usually the weakest link in getting a good sound. There's no doubt in my mind that you can get a good sound with backline plus vocal PA. It has the big advantage of simplicity, everyone takes responsibility for their own sound. Set bass to match drums, guitar to them and vocals to sit on top. Use the same settings as last time as a starting point and adjust to the room. This works really well if a band have little technical expertise but if you have to turn up for any reason then it will get too loud on stage with multiple problems starting. I've equally no doubt that for the very best sound a fully mixed set up with low sound levels on stage and probably in-ears will be better, and can be adjusted to the smallest pub or a stadium. The trouble is it takes time and a little understanding to set up and you need to invest more in the kit. If you don't have someone with the expertise the opportunities to get the sound wrong are greater too. If you don't have the time, money or expertise to set it all up properly then it isn't a good solution so KISS. For me the biggest issue is the drums. Once you add in 5 or more mics for just the kit you are probably moving to the territory of having someone mixing FOH and then adding in problems of preserving the guitarist precious 'tone'. Add in the problems of on-stage monitoring and you've a level of complexity that can be difficult to cope with. However a backline/vocal PA has problems too. All the backline will be picked up by the vocal mics and muddy the sound, stage sound levels will tend to be too high and poor room acoustics can end up ruining the on stage sound. Low ceilings and bass are my personal bugbear. So personally I've settled on a small backline amp just capable of comfortably sitting in with the drums and with guitarists similarly equipped.That gives us the option of playing with just backline in small venues and provides our personal on stage monitoring and tone shaping options. Mic up the cabs for guitarists, kick mic for the drums and DI for me and we can go properly mixed. So far we haven't needed to mic the drums very often but for that many people I'd expect a PA provided. Even then it's been better when I have a little control over my own stage monitoring even if the audience only hear me through the PA. That doesn't mean I think other people have it wrong, I have heard other bands sounding great with all sorts of set ups. However, going back to Molan's original post, Ampeg 8x10 in a pub with an unmiked kit, really! [/quote] Excellent post! Probably worth stating that using IEMs, or adequate monitoring with small amps is the best way of keeping the band volume under control. Guitarists are always the first to turn up... if you blast their IEMs with their guitar, they will be less likely to turn around and reach for the volume setting... unless it's to turn it down. IEMs are also a good way to tame drummers... its amazing how they tend to lay off smacking seven shades of sh1t out of their kit if the mix in their ears is already pretty loud...

There's a lot of fors/against being said in - [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/293804-gigging-without-a-pa/unread/"]Gigging without a PA[/url]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477034551' post='3159320'] At most our audience are standing 10-15m away from the band. They hear what we hear. [/quote] There's an echo in here. They don't for the reasons I have explained previously.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477003364' post='3159266'] I'm in Dad's camp though. For the size of audience we play to if the 'stage' sound is balanced we know that the audience is hearing a decent sound. [/quote] Thats the point though... depending upon where the audience members are, the sound can change dramatically. When the band is going through the PA, this problem is greatly reduced. Audiences don't tend to stand on stage either - so aren't going to get the stage sound!

That's the badger. So when is the dood self build making an appearance?

There are other options to the RCF - like the Yamaha DXR15 - that will also pack a punch for less money than say the 745s. Still light enough too. Miking up the kit is great, especially with a digital kit because it enables you to add in the all elements that you would hear on a studio mixed kit and instead of a flabby, boxy sounding kit, you can have a real fat kick. The biggest plus for me though, is that I hate hearing bands where the guitarist is taking your face off if you are standing in front of his amp... yet you can't hear it if you stand off axis... or if you happen to be three or four people deep in the audience. If you put everything through the PA, everything can be heard a lot more clearly... and more likely to be a decent mix wherever you are standing in the pub. That can only be a good thing, right?

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1476991415' post='3159109'] The bass cab [i]is [/i]the sub. No need for any more in the venues we normally play. Bigger scenes have the full works, but bars..? No need, for us. [/quote] You don't put your kick drum through the bass cab do you? And if you are running your backline to provide all the bass front of house, it's no wonder we are all going deaf. I just don't see why you wouldn't want to use a single 12, or maybe a 2x12 running at a moderately low volume and buy some decent PA to project it all front of house. But that's just me.