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[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382106418' post='2248088'] You're quite right. But I think that with our new drivers you could use two tops and a 2U rack with a class D DSP amp, plus whatever you use for monitors and that would be it. No need for subwoofers unless you're going very loud. If you need a subs we could make a single lightweight sub and build a 2U rack into it, thus making it effectively an active unit which will replace two typical active subs. However, we'd need to see how much bottom our drivers can bring when up on stands and thus losing the boundary reinforcement off the floor. [/quote] That seems pretty sensible - any ideas on a suitable Class D DSP? Of course, having seperates (even if its housed in the same physical unit) pushes the prices up so it would need to be a good competitor to a powered cab solution pricewise before even looking at performance to make it competitive. The amount of bottom end could be an interesting problem to overcome.

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382104641' post='2248050'] It all depends on your budget at the end of the day.... some people are happy with the said Mackies and to be fair for pubs its probably adequate. most of the pubs we get involved with we use two subs and two mid/high as we want a good full sound. small pubs we just use one sub. I'd definitely go active as it's less hassle and the weakest point in any pa system is always gonna be the cables..... small gigs we use 1 x dynacord Powermate desk thats man enough to drive 2 x 18 subs and 2 x 12+cd Med gigs we use 2 x active 18's with dynacord TS400 tops..... functions is much the same except we add another two subs.... Anything bigger than that we hire in a sound company [/quote] Agreed. I think we are coming from a different direction here. Investing in decent PA is the best thing you can do with a band. Forget the backline... a good PA and desk allows you a much better FOH sound, better monitoring capability and lower on stage volumes. You see countless threads on here about people not being able to hear themselves, not having a loud enough amp... you know... all these problems could vanish....

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1382104313' post='2248038'] I'd much prefer power amps separately in pubs as there's always a shortage of power supplies so i find it simpler than having to run extension leads all over the place. One sub is more than enough in a pub and you can easily run up to four and sometimes 8 from one amp. [/quote] Make up some long power leads? In my function bands, we run a whole load of power along the back of the stage and tap off from them. So that's all the onstage lighting, amps, wireless units etc... then we take two feeds down the side to the fronts on long cables. Y cable connector between sub and top. Long power taped along front to power moving heads and front of stage lights. It's all about planning. Uber neat. Uber quick setup. Also, are you running mono with what you are suggesting? Given the fact that most amps are 2 channel, I take it you are running a sub off one channel and the rest off the other channel. You don't want to be running tops and a sub off one feed... not without a crossover in there somewhere... What are you doing with the monitors too? FOH mix as monitor, how do you control the stage volume? You probably want 4 channels minimum... which in most typical power amp setups, would be at least 2.

[quote name='Truckstop' timestamp='1382102303' post='2247993'] WHY DOES EVERYONE USE TWO SUBS?? [/quote] Control and volume. And it looks cool. [quote] Two decent powered tops and one powerful sub will be fine. All that'll go through the sub is a bit of kick so why bring two when one is all you need? All you'll need then is a little 6 channel mixer and a crossover (I'd imagine at the price points we're talking, the tops and sub will have built in crossovers). The Behringer monitors slave into each other so you don't need loads of aux outs etc and you only need ins for two vox and kick. Maybe snare and overhead if you're feeling decadent. [/quote] For how big a venue? And a lot of it is do with whether you want to hear the bass or feel the bass. One sub won't cut it in bigger venues. There's more than just a bit of kick that goes through my subs. Floor toms love a bit of it. So do grindy organs and synths. Hell, I put my bass through it and run next to, if any at all, no onstage volume. It depends what mentality of PAing you subscribe to I guess. I'm less about backline volume, all about letting the PA do the work. [quote] I know the OP has a massive budget, but that's no need to go off and get a massively overpowered and over complicated PA rig. If you have lots of money, the thing to do would be to invest in quality cab and drum mics. What's the point in having a £3k PA and sh*t mics? [/quote] No suggestions of massively overpowered, but yes, headroom is something that I'd defo be interested in. A PA that is delivering power to the speakers with ease rather than a system that is being ragged because it's struggling for volume... if anything, they just hurt your ears. Funnily enough, live mics, you really don't have to spend a lot to get performance. For example, the budget LD systems 7 piece drum mic pack is incredible value for money. They may not be your first choice or recording mic but they do the job very well. My drummer doesn't used them (he's on Audix) but he also comments that they are a good alternative and stonking value for money. Good drummers will appreciate a miced up kit - they can play stuff that would normally get lost... like tiny splashes.

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382100961' post='2247960'] Well I'd argue first hand experiences from folks who have used stuff, and found it works well in the OP's scenario (pub bands, which I guess many of us are in), is valuable. FWIW, we've used MK1 SRM's for 8 years and many (loud-ish blues/rock) pub gigs, and they have been 100% reliable and sound pretty good to me. I'm very aware there are better options if you're fortunate enough to have an unlimited budget. Claiming the thread is "breaking down" just because people make suggestions for the OP to investigate, and demo/evaluate for their use-case isn't all that helpful IMO. How many folks on here have first hand experience of a "whole load" of high end PA to objectively compare anyway? [/quote] Again, I tried to say this earlier - sound is subjective. You like the sound signature of your SRM450s. That's cool. I don't. But that's why we are all different. I would wager your 100% reliability statement wouldn't stand if you were using the Mk2s for example. And it's not all about "high end" there are loads of great options around (and less) the price of the SRM450s. To be honest, gear is generally good now.. there isn't necessarily "better", just "different". I didn't say that the thread is breaking down. I was merely suggesting that the thread could end up with a load of people posting what single system they've used. There is no benchmark. It works for them... but something else could work better (or different!)... but they wouldn't know. [quote] Anyway, as others have mentioned, setting up the PA behind the band is just wrong, so dropping another £3k won't solve the problem - IMHO a couple of good powered speakers out front, with two or three small powered wedges on the stage, combined with a decent small mixer is all you need for a 3 piece pub rock band. I'll refrain from making any more suggestions on brand or model [/quote] You are probably right. But if the OP is willing to spend £3k, theres some ace stuff to get which will make life a lot easier in troublesome environments, hence my suggestion of the digital desk.

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1382100795' post='2247955'] I don't really agree as new lightweight power amps can sit in a rack along with Eq and crossover. A 4u rack could potentially hold all and with the right subs and tops you will destroy most powered stuff. I'd imagine that the barefaced option would be very light and compact and extremely well engineered. I have built a BFM rig with 1 sub and two tops for a band in Northampton that they transport in a car which is not only super light and easy to rig up it also sounds beautiful. They have since ordered three more subs so they can use the same rig for outdoor gigs next summer. That would be overkill for pubs of course but it just shows the flexibility it would give. [/quote] Thats the point. It's another box to carry around... and if you want small and portable doing pub gigs, don't you want to have it all in one box. Now if I was doing a large scale setup, I'd probably choose to use a load of single poweramps running into passive cabs, with a whole load of processing. But let's keep things in reality here. It's a pub band. He wants a small, portable rig. I reckon that a 2 powered tops, 2 powered subs (with built in crossover), 2 powered monitors, beats 6 passive cabs which would require 3 poweramps and some sort of crossover (e.g. on desk or external unit). If you want to expand that latter, it's more cabs, more amps. If you expand the futher, just another XLR into another powered cab. Done. It's pubs. Lets keep things simple eh?

[quote name='Phil Adams' timestamp='1382100037' post='2247935'] Is that what it means? I thought there was a call coming through from the Whitehouse :-) [/quote] Shh. Come come, we all know your real identity Batman...

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382093412' post='2247762'] Hotels and function houses get a bit funny when their systems start dropping out....... I visit around 10-15 AV rental and toursound companies a week and I'd say 90% are running UHF.... [/quote] Oh no, I don't dispute that, I know UHF is common place. I'm surprised if rental companies are running digital over the 2.4Ghz band. I guess it depends which channels in the digital band that the band wireless systems are running on to how much disturbance they cause to wifi. Running channel 38 uhf or digital would make all these problems vanish surely? Of course, for most applications, UHF systems with a compounder are fine... it's just that being able to run a bass through a digital signal with no compounder is just so much better

[indent=1]Wait a minute... is this yet another....[/indent] [indent=1]Yes.... I think it is...[/indent] [indent=1][/indent]

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382096463' post='2247838'] The thread isn't breaking down. I'm seeing lots of different opinions and helpful suggestions thank you very much! [/quote] Cool - it's not at the moment, but these thread usually end up in people pasting up what they use rather than posts from guys who've used a whole load of PA and compare the strengths and weaknesses. PA is expensive... so much consideration should be taken into account as to what you need. My recommendation for the AH desk is that it will basically give you everything you need in one package. Mixing, outboard, eqing, many monitoring options... and is going to give you everything you need to get a great sound in the most difficult of rooms. Speakers are defo worth auditioning - speakers, as you probably aware, have their own sound signature and some to the extent that you'll never be able to get to your liking. As mentioned above, I don't like the top end of the 450s. Many people may just accept this, know no better, or actually like the top end. That's the thing. Everybody hears different. I certainly would be going out trying out cabs at volume before dropping any further money.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1382096386' post='2247836'] I would have thought they would be found between the hind legs of a male dog? [/quote] Bum bum! Ha ha

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382096020' post='2247827'] No, but we've been using Mackie SRM450's for years and they are excellent IMO, if a bit heavy. I'd be very surprised if anything Mackie makes is "dire", but perhaps folks can chime in with first-hand experiences. I have heard QSC K10's and they sounded excellent. [/quote] SRM450 MK1s were ok. MK2 not so. The trouble with the 450s to my ears is that they have a overly harsh top end... even worse on the Mk2s where they changed the amp. I wouldn't go as far as dire... but there are a lot better out there... but not necessarily as well stocked at dealers because Mackie has developed a certain market presence. I remember as kids people kooing over Technics. The opinion was that Techincs is top end hifi but in reality, there was a hell of a lot better out there at a similar price... it's just that Technics appeared in pretty much every electronics shop, catalogue, etc... whereas the competition didn't.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1382094191' post='2247790'] This is very much the niche we've been wanting to fill with our first PA cabs but we haven't had time to get any to market what with all the bass cab stuff. I strongly suspect that a modern lightweight power amp with DSP driving two Big Baby 2s could outperform many top + sub rigs at a fraction of the size and weight. DSP could be used for room space correction as well as EQ and crossing over to an optional sub for bigger/outdoor gigs. Anyone local want to test such a rig once we have some time? [/quote] Sounds good - but the portability is lost with having seperate poweramps. Ideally you want your power amp in the desk or in the cabs. Guys looking for portability don't want the added baggage of having a seperate poweramp. Just my humble of course...

[quote name='Adrenochrome' timestamp='1382094138' post='2247789'] We're now using Mackie active tops (not the DLM ones) and they sound the mutts nuts. We've also got active bottoms as well, but I honestly can't remember which brand, sorry. [/quote] This is where the thread is going to break down. It depends on the individuals definition of mutts nuts.

[quote name='The Dark Lord' timestamp='1382093740' post='2247779'] This is a good shout. I have considered keeping the Bose L1 plus its sub and using it behind the band - plus adding two Mackie DLM12 units on speaker stands as front of house. [/quote] You do realise that PAs behind the band is a really bad idea? The onset of feedback through vocal mics for starters is going to be pretty quick, even at minimal volumes. Get rid of the idea that Bose have sold you of having them next to you on stage. It just doesn't work at the volumes you will be trying to achieve.

[quote name='6v6' timestamp='1382093153' post='2247754'] I'd be looking at the Mackie DLM series, or the QSC powered speakers. [url="http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/"]http://www.mackie.co...mseries/lineup/[/url] [url="http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/k_series/k_series_k10.php"]http://www.qscaudio...._series_k10.php[/url] [/quote] To be honest, this whole thread will likely end up in a load of people putting down a load of random PA cabs... of which there are loads... but in short, anything is going to kick those Bose systems for a pub band. So in short. Bose. Acoustic yes. Pub band no.

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382093269' post='2247757'] Plus sticking the PA Behind the Band is not going to help....... [/quote] This is true... yet Bose seem to say it will cope with it. Yeah right. Even placing it infront of us, it was less than impressive

Bose. No, no, no. Cut your losses and invest in traditional PA. The Bose is exceptionally good for quieter acoustic setups but you'll never get the volume and control you'll need for a pub band. You'll spend more time fighting feedback than playing. Been there in a previous band. Nothing but headaches. Sadly, you won't get portable if you want to move some air - laws of physics. You can get light though. A bunch of people will no doubt chime in with what you can use... but in short, get a desk, some powered speakers... and if you can afford it, 31 band eq for every output (e.g. l/r front plus any monitors) to tune your PA to the room and fight your feedback. Good luck. If you are looking to spend money... Just as idea, you could get an Allen Heath QU16 with a pair of DB Opera 605s that would kick sh1t out of your Bose for less than 2800. Get a couple of subs and you got a serious PA and you could ditch your bass amp... or at least not rely on it for front of house. Mic up your bass and snare and your band is suddenly sounding a hell of a lot better than it is now.

[quote name='Phil Adams' timestamp='1382088523' post='2247658'] Mind you it does go awfully quiet when the batteries fail. That'll learn me........ [/quote] Beware the flashing red light!

[quote name='crez5150' timestamp='1382087893' post='2247645'] It's exactly this...... this is why a lot of the AV companies haven't gone digital yet and are still using UHF (Though the New Sony DWZ range is changing that) it's not so much interference with your system, the line 6 unit was prone to knocking out wi-fi and other networks in hotels/venues if used within a certain range. If you're just playing down the pub it won't matter so much [/quote] I'm quite surprised to hear this. I would have though AV companies would be running digital systems over channel 38. That's what I'm doing with the ULX-D. Mind you, that's some seriously pricey system and locked to ch38 so not so good for worldwide usage. I'd be taking the DWZ in those cases that I work abroad. The DWZ is astonishingly good - given their history in wireless transmission, I don't understand why anybody would go for anything else in that price bracket. Given the fact that their 1/2 rackmount and corresponding pack can do encryption also its a bit of a no brainer. Battery life is good too. In fact, the whole range is great - even the mic with the interchangable heads.

Good technique Mike. I also have a bass with a really high action which does a similar job. Practoce on that and then I switch to my normal bass... and pow. Similar principal to Bill Dickens Buddah Rope I guess.

Check sig ;-) And also www.thebeatfactor.com Shameless self promotion... But hey.