EBS_freak

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1380566576' post='2227226'] So potentially out of the named and shamed only Jon Letts will see this. So actually only he will feel shame if he comes back on here! I wouldn't! It's not really an open letter then. It's kinda a letter to Jon Letts. Best pay for an ad in the Daily Mail. Have a go at the immigrants too! [/quote] True. This thread only seems to have had a purpose if a bass suddenly materialises because the majority of the content in here is widely being ignored.

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1380571365' post='2227362'] Good business ethics is what we should expect from any business as a matter of course, not just luthiers, and we shouldn't have to "put up and shut up" [/quote] Agreed. Unless they are selling a unique product that you can't get elsewhere then you are kinda screwed. There seems to be an echo.

PS just to clarify, not saying that custom guys behaviour is right, just saying why it is like it is.

[quote name='alyctes' timestamp='1380582622' post='2227572'] This. [Disclaimer: Never bought a custom anything...] [/quote] Try reading the thread again.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1380564041' post='2227165'] What I don't understand is the business model most these UK based guys work on. With few exceptions I can't work out what their unique selling point is. I mean when I first started on basschat everyone was going mad about Shuker - and I'm sure they're good basses but I can't work out what makes them any different than a similar super jazz that someone else could make. ACG have their preamp and a bit more considered body shapes (I'm a designer/visual artist so that's where that opinion comes from) which sets them apart a bit, ... but apart from that I can't think of many who stand out of the "newer" builders - If you think of the slightly older UK builders if I said JD, Wal, Status or Overwater, then you can Imagine what the bass would look, and to a certain extent sound like. Some of the newer lot.... I don't get what it is that they are doing particularly. IMO it would make more sense to come up with something exceptional and sell that, rather than make whatever the (uneducated) punter wants. I guess I also think that a hand built bass isn't nesserally better than a 3D CNDed bass fretted by a robot (a la Warwick) when it comes down to the finished product... I'm guessing the tolerances on a computer can be far far smaller.... I get it. As an apendium, Most electric bass guitars are a bit more low tech than a new Morgan, and something like Wal inspired pickups could be built at home if you wanted too and put in the time/effort. [/quote] I don't get the J bass thing either. By their very nature they are a production line instrument. May as well get a Warmoth body and neck and customise to your hearts content. Of course this doesn't give the same birthing process that I think many crave. Warmoth will cater for your choice of wood and make pretty much anything you want within a standard j bass spec. Only if there is something truly whacky about your desired spec I could see why you must go custom. The thing is, luthiers can come up with something whacky... And it won't sell. People want the normality of a j bass but not the normality of a Fender. Time and time again you see luthiers start off with something out of the norm... Then plump for a j bass. Why? Cos it sells and is a timeless shape. I can see why guys like ACG, Wal, GB, Alembic and Schack to name a few, do well. Their usp is all in their electronics. Nothing else sounds like them and the full electronics package and pickups are generally not available for purchase to put in other basses. And quite right too. As for Morgan, it's not a literal comparison... But there are elements of a bass that are not as straightforward either. Take this for example... http://www.gbguitars.co.uk/images/innovation/detail/bass_preamp_lg.jpg That's years of r and d and each one of those circuits are hand soldered and matched to the pickups it will work with. That's not your normal plug and play circuit. I'd say elements of this are on par with a Morgan personally... Remember, Morgan don't build their own engines for starters. The actual production is vastly different but my stance on only a Morgan will do if the buyer wants a Morgan still stands. As for the Wal pickups, it's not as simple as that either. Where are you going to find a Wal pickup to reverse engineer? If you find one, are you going to destroy it in your quest to replicate it? Have you got the winders to make it a viable process? Are you going to invest the time and money to buy all the components (in small but expensive quantities) to test it all? And remember, the pickups are only half of the Wal sound. Yes, they could be built at home... But in reality they are not are they? Especially as a one off. That's why our New Jersey friend tried to make a business venture out of it. You make it sound like its easy... But it's far from that. If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it and cashing in.

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1380559996' post='2227098'] I would've thought though that guitars are basically guitars and there's not much innovation going on and so no real opportunity for massive delays, excepting personal problems that might crop up. But when 'personal problems' become the norm and everything is always late you're left thinking maybe this guy isn't suited to self employment... [/quote] Yup, a bit of wood here, a bit of glue there, a few screws. Simples!

"ooh, imagine it in it's day..."

...in yellow.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559847' post='2227094'] I was going to put a picture of a terrible Morgan style kit car on but I am on the works PC [/quote] Oh surely you'd buy an MR2 Ferrari?

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380559645' post='2227092'] I'd just go somewhere else, probably cheaper too [/quote] Vera vs Morgan? There's only one winner!

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558883' post='2227076'] I said that because when I worked in a music shop many years ago we used to stock & order quite a bit from John. Some of the things he used to say were outrageous but he was a very funny bloke. The guy who ran the shop wanted to order a custom Supernatural bass with a small body - John said "If you want a small bodied bass f*** off & buy a Wal" & put the phone down. [/quote] Ha ha. Certainly rings true! There's a couple of other notable luthiers that spring to mind who would have reacted in the same way! I was meant to ask John how the f**k he solders the connections onto his pickups. Does he use a frickin' blowtorch or something? (Seems like a sensible approach to wiring basses - I hope he does cos I have got the most fantastic image in my mind at this point!)

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1380558329' post='2227063'] And thats peoples points here, that put up or shut up is dumb. How the hell does anyone know what a builder is like, if disgruntled customers didnt post their experiences? If you go to a custom luthier for the first time, you take him on face value, or you look for reports on his work ethic from others that have experienced that builder. Its not acceptable - not in the least. I certainly wouldnt order any bass from those named and shamed here, and thats thanks to the people who expose their shoddy work ethic. [/quote] Are people not reading my comments properly? It's not about going elsewhere or chosing other vendors... I am guessing Shockwave's choices for going with those manufacturers are because they offer something that other vendors dont. Jon Lett's guitars are certainly unique looking and not something that is readily available off the shelf and are in a style that is not typical or other luthiers. SGD pickups certainly have a rep over on talkbass - and I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if Shockwave had ordered one of those Wal inspired pickups. Now you tell me where you can readily get hold of a set of those. I know another certain luthier was working on getting some manufactured, but I know he wouldn't sell them outside of his basses, as they form part of the unique selling point of his basses. I would certainly suggest that people do their homework. Find you perfect luthier. Find your perfect pickup maker. Great. But if you want a XYZ product that is only available from Mr ABC, then you are in a put up or shut up situation (there's that phrase again for me to be misquoted on again). There are many luthiers that have certain reputations... but the top and tale of it, you have to deal with them if you want their product that badly. Jeez. You want something like a Morgan car? You join the (long) queue... you don't know exactly when it will be made... you just sit and wait until your number comes up? Not good enough? Buy one second hand or put up and shut up? You aren't going to get a new Morgan any other way. Yes, you can buy something else and take your money elsewhere... but you won't have a new Morgan. It doesn't matter what stories good or bad you are told... if you want something, in a way, you have to play their game despite you being the customer (and of course, the customer is always right). Totally wrong I know... but that's how it is when the seller has something that you want that you can't just pluck off the shelf. Yes, you shouldn't have to play the BS games... just depends how much you want that final product. Do you get it now?

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1380558439' post='2227066'] This MUST have been John Diggins! [/quote] No cigar! But I can see where you are coming from!

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1380549428' post='2226879'] Yup, it's true, [i][b]feet [/b][/i]really are the new [i][b]handles[/b][/i]. Next on the list to bitch about: [list] [*]Grilles [*]Finish [*]Corners [*]Plywood [*]Shape [*]Colour [*]Weight [*]Smell [*]Price [*]Name [/list] [/quote] You forgot... Logo. Fair play for sorting the issues rather than not even acknowledging the problems!

At least he won't be sueing for copyright infringement on the headstock.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380555190' post='2227016'] This is the main drawback of custom instruments. If a builder already produces an instrument that someone likes the sound of, its a relatively small jump for them to alter physical aspects such as body shape, string spacing and neck dimensions. Its a completely different ball park to specify a certain wood combination and expect the luthier to produce a specific sound from it that is unfamiliar to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen with some woods for any number of reasons. [/quote] Changing wood is the easiest thing to change though! Having said that, due to the nature wood, two basses made from the same wood, even from the same tree can sound vastly different. Wood is not uniform. Instuments may sound identical, similar or vastly different. Nobody can tell for sure what an instrument will sound like until it's strung up. Any luthier will be able to tell you that. Any luthier that says otherwise is a liar. Woods have characteristics yes but they can vary so much, sometimes it's not even worth talking about! People like Status have probably the best approach to getting similar sounding instruments - their construction is from a much more consistent material. Of course, the more active you go, the less important the choice of woods as the sound is coming more from the circuit and the pickups... Changing body shape, unless it's things like the radius of edges or similar, is a different kettle of fish completely. Changing scales, number of frets etc, can result in a lot of rework in the jigs... far more than just changing the wood of an instrument. PS - my problem was with the build of the product itself, not the sound, profile etc.

[quote] 5 - I'm never sure if I'll 'get on' with the builder. Not that I'm an arsehole or anything but because of stories like this. I'd forever see the bass as a reminder of the process and I'd really struggle to identify with an instrument I had to spend so much time and effort having made, ala Shockwave. Even if it was perfect, it would put me off. As it stands, I've had several communications with the guy who owns Vigier, and it was nice - and that helps me enjoy the instrument and it's 'aura' [/quote] I can completely relate to this. Even when the problem was resolved (and when I say resolved, the product itself was still not right), I felt no affinity with the completed instrument.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380553226' post='2226974'] 'They don't know what the f*** they want, only when they f***ing want it'. I put some extra sauce on for you mate [/quote] Ooh.... that's made me go all tingly inside.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1380552687' post='2226959'] Are many of the customers just as much of a pain in the arse as many of the builders though? People who think they know what they want but can't communicate it, or think they will get the perfect bass when in fact it will be pretty much like any other bass of similar spec, just looking different. Custom Bass Disease. Everyone loves a good build thread. They love the transformation of an old bit of diseased wood that looks like anything in yer dad's shed to when they start bevelling edges and sculpting laminated neck heels, then that magic rub with a bit of water to show how wickid the grain will look when the Ronseal goes on Sadly that's the only bit that 'does what it says on the tin', the rest of it is just a bass that you have no idea about, how it will feel, what it will sound like, or when you will get it. All you really want is to see your custom bass being made from bits of wood and metal and being transformed over an excruciating period of time into what you think you will have an everlasting loving relationship with. [/quote] Ah so romantic! This is true - for a lot of people, it's that promise of nirvana, all their dreams answered.... when in reality, it's the build that is the bit that captures their imagination, rather than the finished product. Just because you can choose from an almost limited amount of options, doesn't mean you should. Choose all the woods you want, choose your pickups, circuits... spec this, spec that... the only way you know what it sounds like, how it plays like, is when it's in your hands... And when it is in your hands, you have to convince your friends it's the best thing ever... before you put if up for sale months later in BC classified. See it all too often... On the otherside, when you do get it right (and I like to think I got it right with my 3 - of which I can not think of any other basses I'd much rather have), it can be great. I've heard lots of horror stories from luthiers... why would you order a 5 string 35" scale fretless when you've never played a 5er and you're used to playing on a 34" 4 banger? Why would you change the spacing to something you've never experienced before? Why complain that bass sounds nothing like a P/J/MM when the bass you specced has no resemblance? Absolutely crazy... Go on, say it xilddx... say my new favourite quote...!

Good stuff - what colour scheme did you go for in the end then? (this is a very important factor when it comes to cIEMs!) What are you using in front of you IEMs? Wired/Wireless?

[quote name='pierreganseman' timestamp='1380551548' post='2226930'] I would have had not a single problem with them. If they had COMMUNICATE!! [/quote] Luthiers have a particular skill when they do choose to communicate. When contacting a certain luthier about my specific problem... "If it's good enough for <famous bass player #1> and <famous bass player #2>, then it's good enough for you." Charming!

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1380550265' post='2226902'] I've had numerous custom builds and special order basses done for me over the years , and all of them were, on the whole, overwhelmingly positive experiences in terms of the honesty and good intentions of the builders. However, I have learnt to take most projected delivery dates from smaller builders with a pinch of salt , as in practise they seldom are finished on time . The waiting for pickups/hardware from a third party excuse is [i]very [/i]common .( To be perfectly honest with you , I take most manufacturers claims for the superlative quality of their work with a pinch of salt, too , but that is probably a topic for another thread. ) The thing is , though , that custom bass building is not , on the whole, the kind of activity that attracts the most organised and hard-headed of businessmen, and I am sure a lot of these guys have the best of intentions but are out of their depth in trying to organise themselves , their resources and their time to meet their obligations to the customer. When you visit them in person , a lot of big- name custom bass builders are basically very modest cottage industries trying to subsist by doing what they love. I am not trying to excuse anybody who has behaved irresponsibly or dishonestly , but I cannot think that a lot of these " rogue" builders are in fact just hapless rather than malicious or conniving in any way to do people out of their money . What is for certain , however, is that if as a builder you take someone's money then you are morally obligated to honour that contract . [/quote] Best post of the thread I've read so far... (excluding my own, naturally )

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1380548576' post='2226855'] The one about your bad neck, maybe you need a lighter bass! [/quote] Yeah, causes me a lot of pain, doesn't seem to lie right even now.

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1380548661' post='2226859'] I know of a few luthiers who are dependent on pick up and hardware suppliers for builds. But they're also custom builders and it doesn't make sense for them to stockpile for custom options. Thats just how it is. I like Wal, Ken Smith and Jaydee - they are more manufacturers than luthiers although they do have the luthiery skills to fall back obviosly. But they offer their product warts and all on a take it or leave it basis. This means they can pre order components and can be a little more accurate with delivery. [/quote] I kinda get where you are coming from - they are custom in the fact that they supply a finite number of options... and as a consequence are more of an assembly line as opposed to a true custom shop. I can only imagine the frustrations of the guys that get orders such as - "Can you make me a xyz fret neck - I know you only seem to do 22". - cue a load of work in creating new drawings, jigs - etc. It's not business as usual. Now, rightly or wrongly, put yourself in the luthier's position, are you going to work on that bass that you know you can get out of the door and get some money in your pocket when times are tight because you've got the whole process of construction nailed to it's completion... or are you going to be interested in ignoring your bills and getting on with that one which is going to cost you more time and money than usual... and so starts the trend of delivery times slipping... So why do these guys agree to such changes? Because peversely, they need the money and need to take on that build!

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1380547725' post='2226839'] I'd like to hear your story. It might stop me ordering from whoever it is in the future. [/quote] You only have to drop me a PM.