Will boutique basses be good long-term investments?

[casapete]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='937903' date='Aug 27 2010, 10:45 AM']Original and iconic,which Fender P & J basses are will always hold there value better than copies,no matter how refined the copies are.If these companies that make these high end "copies" are so good/inovative,why can't they come up with an original idea,without it looking like a P or a J bass ?
Just look at almost anything American from the 50's - early 60's,cars,bikes.............etc

For example,

57 Chevy or Vauxhall Cresta ?
60's Fender or 60's Burns ?
Harley Panhead or Sunbeam ?
Levi's originals or Staypressed ?
I know which i'd rather have.[/quote]


Carrying on the car theme, I think the thing is to go for 'classic' instruments of the period - these are the ones which have
tons of appeal when new, which will continue for many years due to great design, build, function and desirability.

I'm currently looking for a Peugeot 406 coupe - surely (if not already) a classic motor which will remain so in years to come.

Nearly 30 years ago I considered myself really current by using a Stingray after years of old Fenders. The Stingray (although not a
million miles away from my P-bass) was such a radical change for me, mainly due to being an active bass. Nowadays after nearly 35 years
in production the Stingray is firmly established as a 'classic' iconic design.
Whether costly boutique versions of the Jazz bass will be viewed like this in the future remains to be seen. The ones which probably
will hold/increase their value are the instruments which are currently fairly affordable, aesthetic and innovative. Oh yeah, and cool!!

[molan]

I think it's a tough call because there are so many factors at play.

A manufacturer ceasing production because he can't sell enough often has the perverse effect of pushing prices up due to scarcity. If someone like Roger Sadowsky were to go bust today I'd predict that prices of used NYC basses would go through the roof for a while & then settle to a simple supply/demand related price.

Pretty sure the same would be the case for Jimmy Coppolo or Chris Celinder (in fact I'm not sure that this isn't already happening with Celinders?).

Scarcity & good word of mouth are obviously the big factors in determining desirability & ultimately price. Take a look at used Fodera & Alembic prices. Although they might appear to be half what a new one might cost a lot of these have held value amazingly well. I know, from painful experience, that it's damn near impossible to find a used Fodera Monarch for under £3,500 & that's for a mid 80's bass.

The big difference with Fenders, IMHO, is that they are better known than exotic boutique brands and more likely to be sought after by pure collectors (as opposed to players) and also people who might dip in and out of the market. I know of at least one person who plays guitar very rarely but had the money to buy pretty much anything he wanted - he shunned all the new options like PRS etc & bought a '60's Strat in Denmark Street.

His view was that it would never lose money if he decided to flog it, unfortunately he was wrong by a pretty massive margin - when he realised he never played the thing & tried to sell it the best offer he got was about £2K less than he paid for it. Now, this may be simply because he paid too much for it in the first place & that the market is pretty depressed now; however it did crystallise for me the thought that an old Fender isn't exactly the wonderful hedge against inflation that maybe I'd thought

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Muzz' post='937856' date='Aug 27 2010, 01:58 AM']The fact that old Fenders are worth multiples times their original value seemingly regardless of quality or useability means that it's Fender all the way. The market dictates these things, and the market for Fenders is very much bigger than the market for any boutique brand. Fender is an iconic brand, and it's a sad fact that a significant proportion of the people who spend a lot of money on iconic instruments have their actual playability and quality fairly low on their priority list.[/quote]
I'm glad you posted this twice as it's dead on. So much so I'm quoting it for a ridiculous 3rd time. I think the redundancy is important.

It seems the best investments are the cheap Fenders that went from the bottom to the top of the price list. Buying boutiques you start at the top of the price scale making a fall more likely. Warren Buffet says buy undervalued and boutiques rarely if ever are.

I can't think of any boutique builder who's basses value keeps pace with inflation let alone increases much. Rare individual basses excepted

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='937956' date='Aug 27 2010, 03:37 AM']I reckon an easy rule of thumb is basses (or anything for that matter) that have started to appreciate over time are likely to be a better investment than those that haven't.

As soon as they do that it snowballs, people buy them and think of them as investments as well as possessions and don't trade them for less than they bought them for, which in turn further appreciates them.[/quote]
I think you're right, once the investment grade talk starts things go crazy. I remember in the '80's when the Japanese started to buy all the Fenders it went from "I just sold some businessman in Japan my old Strat for $20k" to "Whoa, that's a $20k Strat? It must sound really good. I want one."

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='fingerz' post='938129' date='Aug 27 2010, 06:45 AM']I knew a bloke years ago, who couldn't play at all, but collected rare guitars and basses. I expect there are a lot of people like this who actually keep the top end of this market afloat.[/quote]
From what I've seen the majority, though not all, of boutique gear never sees a gig. They're in many ways like brand new vintage basses, owning them is cool even if you don't really play. At least in the US many just hang out in the bedroom and noodle now and then.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='fingerz' post='938129' date='Aug 27 2010, 02:45 PM']I knew a bloke years ago, who couldn't play at all, but collected rare guitars and basses. I expect there are a lot of people like this who actually keep the top end of this market afloat. I think this is totally consistent with any collectors, often more like business men than enthusiasts for the nuts and bolts of their chosen field. It makes more sense this way too. I mean, how many of you go out gigging with your 70's Jazz or Boutique bass and constantly risk damaging it on a stage, or on a flight to some part of the world.... Now, I know these instruments are for playing and working, but a pure collector would have the upper hand in terms of re-sale as his bass is immaculate. Hopefully destined for the hands of someone who will really appreciate it one day! [/quote]

Totally disagree here,I think you will find its the played ones that are generally worth more hence the idea of relicing, For a start because its the idea of if only this bass could talk,where has it been and what has it seen,If its mint then nothing just the inside of a case!

And if you want to post a thread asking why no one plays rare, vintage or collectable guitars and just keep them locked away I think you may be very surprised as to what gets gigged on a regular basis!

And to mix the car theme and OT together then Im into classic cars and the general theory is always about nostalgia and what cars we drove when we were growing up,Sure thats part of it but the vintage,Veteran and pre war scene is bigger and more profitable than ever (anyone want to dispute that?,£20K per seat is rough guide to cars value eligable for the London to Brighton run,so for 8 seater cars you do the maths!) yet these are not cars of their owners youth as you would have to be over 100 years old! Even if the owners are in their 70's thats like saying cars (or guitars) from the late 30's are of my youth being born in 77.It doesnt stack up that easy and why, Who knows but its very fashionable to be seen in these sort of events at the moment ie Goodwood festival of speed etc are full of Z list celebs trying to get snapped in the old clobber which I have no knowledge of but im guessing the value of clothing and automobilia etc has gone up too to meet demand for these events.

[birdy]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='938743' date='Aug 28 2010, 01:20 PM']From what I've seen the majority, though not all, of boutique gear never sees a gig. They're in many ways like brand new vintage basses, owning them is cool even if you don't really play. At least in the US many just hang out in the bedroom and noodle now and then.[/quote]

I have had a lot of really nice gear and gigged it all!

[stingrayPete1977]

Good on ya Birdy, Thats what it was made for! I think there are plenty of others out there and worthy of a whole new thread to be fair.

[CHRISDABASS]

I dont care how expensive a bass is i'd still gig it!

whats the point in having such an amazing looking/sounding/playing bass if it just sits at home doing nothing!

[stingrayPete1977]

This is what I thought, can and worms everywhere.......

[JTUK]

I gig all mine and if I ding them too much...I will send them to the workshop for a repaint or whatever. I bought them because they sound great and play well, IMO.

Who would have all these things and not gig them..??? what is all that about..?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='938793' date='Aug 28 2010, 06:37 AM']I dont care how expensive a bass is i'd still gig it!

whats the point in having such an amazing looking/sounding/playing bass if it just sits at home doing nothing![/quote]
It makes wealthy people feel like they are musicians. When Fodera sells a yin yang Wooten bass it's likely going to stay in the house of a fan.

I didn't say no one gigs expensive stuff. But I've seen so many collectors who don't gig with rooms full of boutique gear. I'm just sharing an observation over the past 30 years. Vintage and boutique is more likely to be in a case than on stage relative to the more affordable less collectable stuff.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='JTUK' post='939044' date='Aug 28 2010, 01:38 PM']Who would have all these things and not gig them..??? what is all that about..?[/quote]
Collecting? Is that uncommon in the UK? Almost none of the vintage fad Fenders in Japan in the 1980's were ever played again. Look around Talkbass and you'll see hundreds of high end owners who go on for days about how cool their bass is but they never gig. Collectors of numerous Musicman basses etc...

This concept seems to stir up a defensive reaction. That's funny

[Prosebass]

[quote name='davidmpires' post='937874' date='Aug 27 2010, 10:17 AM']That is not the case, there are some people out there that would prefer a Fender over a boutique bass anyday for playability reasons.
Boutique instruments are not always best, sure they have the best woods and the best finishing and the amount of customization usually is fairly high but they are not by any means the best basses out there.

And Fender managed to have half the world playing their instruments for half a century that's saying something[/quote]

McDonalds sell more burgers than anyone else, doesn't mean they are of good quality they just sell a lot.

The price of a bass has nothing to do with the cost of parts and labour. Brand association and desire to own a Fender accounts for a lot of the price they can charge. Same goes for S/H prices.
Also don't get price and worth mixed up.
As the old saying goes " pity him who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Cat Burrito]

I agree with CK that basses get picked up if a famous band is linked with them. I think the stuff that is more selective (boutique basses) is going to have a more limited appeal [b]but[/b] is going to be rarer too so the prices may be higher. The Rickenbackers and Gibsons tend to rival Fender in the vintage mojo stakes and go for good money.

I think it's more than just 50s and 60s basses as bumnote suggests that will hold their value. I'd actually go the other way and suggest that 20th century basses will be collectable in a few years. The 20th Century is the birth of rock music and as the older stuff gets rarer my guess is that people will want to buy into that. I also think people like to buy into their own nostalgia. I'm not massively interested in owning any 50s or 60s basses - in part because I wouldn't spend that much - but being born in the early 70s has helped me develop a massive interest in 70s Fender. And from the ones I have played I do wonder if the rubbish ones aren't around anymore because most of the 70s stuff I've tried has been great fun.

[LukeFRC]

mechanically an electric bass is pretty much a generic commodity in many different variants.
The fender bass (and guitar) was revolutionary partly because it could be mass produced cheaply, that was one of the points of it.

So why do we still play them now? (and why are there not more double basses played) - because music is shaped around the sounds of the instruments. And also the image of the music is shaped around the look and vibe of the thing.
The fender bass is part of pop and rock music in a way no other form of bass will ever be.
The fender brand therefore stands not for quality or playability (primarily) but for the image of rock music, of soul, of jazz... you get the idea.
Also they only have two main designs (and varients on that) so it is fairly easy to know what you are looking at.

boutique stuff I would understand differently.
How it should work is that the player goes: I want this from my bass, who can supply that? And then looks around makers to see who can provide it. The player then gets the bass they want.
How I think it often happens is that people buy into the shadowsky or ceillenders for the brand rather than the instrument.
If you are buying for what it is, rather than the brand then the question of investment is negligible.
Will these brands hold their investment protential? Well if they look after themselves (as warwick didnt at the start of the century) and if they offer something different (like i think wal or status do) or get some big name playing them ( modulus) then maybe,
If they bass is essentually a more shiny version of a fender bass... then no.

I have 3 basses. And two of them have a value over £200.
My approach has been.
Buy what I really want.
Buy what I'm interested in.
Buy what sounds good/amazing.
and then finally buy cheap something knowing it possibly will hold it's value.
so I have a 1991 warwick streamer stage one, and a 1982 JV squier (lg fender logo) both of which I could sell for more than I go them for.

in a side note when i first started reading about basses everyhitng i read said avoid late 70's fender if you can. Yet the prices seem to be going up and up....

[JTUK]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='939076' date='Aug 28 2010, 10:25 PM']Collecting? Is that uncommon in the UK? Almost none of the vintage fad Fenders in Japan in the 1980's were ever played again. Look around Talkbass and you'll see hundreds of high end owners who go on for days about how cool their bass is but they never gig. Collectors of numerous Musicman basses etc...

This concept seems to stir up a defensive reaction. That's funny [/quote]

Indeed... high end owners who bang on about their cool gear but never gig....what is that all about?

A collector may indeed buy up the instrument and then it never gets played again. My point..which I expect you know, was what sort of bass player buys this stuff and keeps it at home without a gig for eons..??

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='939093' date='Aug 28 2010, 03:01 PM']mechanically an electric bass is pretty much a generic commodity in many dif
in a side note when i first started reading about basses everyhitng i read said avoid late 70's fender if you can. Yet the prices seem to be going up and up....[/quote]
A few years before that it was anything after 1965 was junk.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='JTUK' post='939105' date='Aug 28 2010, 03:18 PM']My point..which I expect you know, was what sort of bass player buys this stuff and keeps it at home without a gig for eons..??[/quote]
Do you mean someone who is gigging cheaper basses? I guess that would be like the fine china plates. More decorative and owned for just the fun of keeping fine things.