Help in getting a bass to balance nicely

[cameltoe]

Hi there.

So I've been a big fan of Fender Precisions since I started out playing only a couple of years ago. They're pretty much the benchmark for me, they do everything I need them to do and they're really comfortable!

I recently had a lovely birthday present from my girlfriend in the form of a Road Worn Precision in Fiesta Red. It was amazing, and it feels sooooo good that I had to have it, even though it was more than she'd wanted to spend

One of the first things I noticed about it, was how light it was. It was incredible, even back-to-back with the regular Fender Classic '50's series, it felt much, much lighter. Seeing as my bass at the time was a bit of a boat-anchor I didn't figure this would be a problem.

However, a few gigs on now, I'm starting to realise that maybe the lightness of the body works against it, in terms of balance. It's great to have something light around your neck for once, but it's just, ever so slightly, weighted towards the neck.

This doesn't result in the dreaded neck-dive, but it does mean that the bass's natural hanging position, if you will, is exactly horizontal across my body. Therefore when I'm playing something a bit more technical or busy, I cannot let go of the neck even for a second. For the most part this isn't a problem, but sometimes it does make reaching stuff a bit more awkward when I have to have a certain amount of my left hand action holding the neck upwards at the angle I like it at.

At first I got around the problem by having the bass very high on the strap, which meant it could get away with hanging level as it was higher. This was fine, but I started to get pain in my right hand due to having to curl my wrist around the top of the body. It's also not ideal for playing at the very first fret, as it's more of a stretch for the left arm. I also found the top curve of the body became a bit of an obstruction.

Currently I'm spending most gigs constantly faffing with my strap, to try and find a perfect place where it's comfortable, and the 'dive' won't bother me.

My favorite position is to have the bass hang just above waist height, with the neck tilting upwards around 45 degrees. It's very comfortable for both hands and I can reach everything without a struggle. This was where I had my old MIM Precision, which didn't move from it's spot when I released the neck! It was also fine for the cheap Aria Jazz bass I just sold. But the roadworn just wants to dip it's neck down to be dead horizontal!

I'm not going to get rid of the bass, but I would like any advice or suggestions on how to get round this, or even how to ignore it. Even position advice may help.

I have wide and grippy straps, but the neck still pulls it's way down. With half my t shirt!

A friend suggested either moving the strap pins slightly (but to where?) or adding a bit of mass to the body (how?)

Any help would be fantastic. Someone must have had-and solved- this problem before!

Edited August 30, 2010 by cameltoe

[Bassassin]

Lightweight tuners (Hipshot, Gotoh, Schaller etc all do them) is the first thing that comes to mind - there's not a lot of weight in the average neck so this should make a big difference.

Maybe try using a strap with suede or similar high-friction material on the inside.

Jon.

[mcnach]

Try helium balloons attached to the headstock?

[essexbasscat]

Interesting post. I've just checked my Roadworn P for balance and found that the neck on mine is ever so slightly heavier than the body as well.

I use a 3" stap, which seems to inhibit the neck in it's creeping tendancy towards horizontal. I do agree that the neck does seem inclined towards level, but my strap does hold it in place.

I position the height of my bass to be the same in standing as it would be sitting in a chair with both hips and knees bent close to 90 degrees each.

I wasn't aware of this issue until now, as I've yet to gig mine, but I do wonder if the neck pull on the strap will lead to shoulder discomfort on a performance of a few hours or more.

All that said, they are fantastic basses, there's hardly a day that goes by when I havn't picked mine up several times. The first time is often before I go to work in the morning, which believe me, is something new. They really are impressive Precisions - mine won't be going anywhere without me

T

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='940215' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:00 PM']Lightweight tuners (Hipshot, Gotoh, Schaller etc all do them) is the first thing that comes to mind - there's not a lot of weight in the average neck so this should make a big difference.

Maybe try using a strap with suede or similar high-friction material on the inside.

Jon.[/quote]

I have a grippy suede strap, so that's out. It does help, but the bass still 'pulls' down, and nearly always still moves a bit before it catches.

I had considered lightweight tuners but wasn't sure how much of a difference this would actually have (can anyone confirm?)- with something else on the body side it might be enough do the trick though. The reverse tuners are doing my head in anyway! (ALWAYS turning them the wrong way!)




[quote name='mcnach' post='940217' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:02 PM']Try helium balloons attached to the headstock? [/quote]

Well, it would work!

[Balcro]

Without even checking the spec, I'd guess your RW has an ash body. Beautifully resonant, but outweighed by most necks. Mine only suffers slightly in comparison to your dilemma.

+1 to what Bassassin said about the strap. The other thing that I do is to flip the tail end of the strap over to the front side of the body. Not only does this pull the angle of the neck up several degrees but it tilts the face of the strings toward you. I know it's only a temporary expedient, but it might be better than disfiguring a bass by drilling holes in it.

Balcro.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Balcro

[cameltoe]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='940223' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:10 PM']Interesting post. I've just checked my Roadworn P for balance and found that the neck on mine is ever so slightly heavier than the body as well.

I use a 3" stap, which seems to inhibit the neck in it's creeping tendancy towards horizontal. I do agree that the neck does seem inclined towards level, but my strap does hold it in place.

I position the height of my bass to be the same in standing as it would be sitting in a chair with both hips and knees bent close to 90 degrees each.

I wasn't aware of this issue until now, as I've yet to gig mine, but I do wonder if the neck pull on the strap will lead to shoulder discomfort on a performance of a few hours or more.

All that said, they are fantastic basses, there's hardly a day that goes by when I havn't picked mine up several times. The first time is often before I go to work in the morning, which believe me, is something new. They really are impressive Precisions - mine won't be going anywhere without me

T[/quote]

My teacher actually suggested having the bass sit the same on my body as it would in a chair, so maybe I'll look into that and try new techniques to stop my wrist curling round and causing me discomfort.

I have a 3" suede strap, and a big fat wide leather strap, but the inside of that is fairly smooth and slidy. Maybe I need a fat suede strap!

Yep they are amazing, and I'm not even thinking of getting rid, just solving this problem. I also pick it up way more than I have any other bass I've owned.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Balcro' post='940225' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:11 PM']Without even checking the spec, I'd guess your RW has an ash body. Beautifully resonant, but outweighed by most necks. Mine only suffers slightly in comparison to your dilemma.

+1 to what Bassassin said about the strap. The other thing that I do is to flip the tail end of the strap over to the front side of the body. Not only does this pull the angle of the neck up several degrees but it tilts the face of the strings toward you. I know it's only a temporary expedient, but it might be better than disfiguring a bass by drilling holes in it.

Balcro.[/quote]

You mean have the back of the strap on the front of the bass? Hmm, sounds interesting! Hopefully that'll help.

I wouldn't worry about disfiguring a Road Worn. It already has a few pointless holes from factory! A bit of mexican spit, some dirt, some rust.....

[BB2000]

Gotoh GB640 resolite tuners - will take about 200g from the headstock. They are quite expensive.

[Colledge]

ive seen people putting lead wheel weights on the inside of a bridge cover to remedy neck dive, should work.. but then you lose the nice lightness of the bass.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='940224' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:10 PM']I had considered lightweight tuners but wasn't sure how much of a difference this would actually have (can anyone confirm?)[/quote]
You'd be surprised how much weight there is in a set of tuners - and in this instance you're basically putting 4 big lumps of steel at the end of a long lever!

Out of curiosity I just weighed some bits I have lying around:

Ibanez Blazer neck (1 fret longer than a standard P neck) - 770g

Ibby Blazer tuners, minus screws (these are a good bit smaller than Fender-type tuners) - 370g

Schaller BM full-size lightweight tuners - 190g

Considering the weight of the neck is spread along its entire length, I do think light tuners will make a big difference. I doubt you'd need to add weight to the body.

J.

[Darkstrike]

I'd definatly try light tuners, they make a big difference, IMHO.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='mcnach' post='940217' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:02 PM']Try helium balloons attached to the headstock? [/quote]
That's just crazy.
You need to suspend a household iron from the bridge end strap button - far more practical than having to inflate damn balloons every gig.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Ou7shined

[Musicman20]

This was an issue on a few RW Jazzes I tried. Ive never picked up a lighter Jazz bass, but the neck did want to go towards the ground.

One thing I noticed on Talkbass. Some people have stated the bodies on the RWs are slightly thinner than normal...not much, but might help to aid a lower weight.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='Balcro' post='940225' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:11 PM']Without even checking the spec, I'd guess your RW has an ash body. Beautifully resonant, but outweighed by most necks. Mine only suffers slightly in comparison to your dilemma.

+1 to what Bassassin said about the strap. The other thing that I do is to flip the tail end of the strap over to the front side of the body. Not only does this pull the angle of the neck up several degrees but it tilts the face of the strings toward you. I know it's only a temporary expedient, but it might be better than disfiguring a bass by drilling holes in it.

Balcro.[/quote]


I've no idea on earth why this should work, but it does. Tried this at rehersal tonight, and the neck did come up a couple of inches. Why does this work?

Of course my lovely, comfy padded strap now cuts into my shoulder, but it's the best I've had the Precision to balance against me.

Great advice, cheers.

Now if i could just get a strap that has padding on the back bit!

[quote name='Bassassin' post='940261' date='Aug 30 2010, 07:43 PM']You'd be surprised how much weight there is in a set of tuners - and in this instance you're basically putting 4 big lumps of steel at the end of a long lever!

Out of curiosity I just weighed some bits I have lying around:

Ibanez Blazer neck (1 fret longer than a standard P neck) - 770g

Ibby Blazer tuners, minus screws (these are a good bit smaller than Fender-type tuners) - 370g

Schaller BM full-size lightweight tuners - 190g

Considering the weight of the neck is spread along its entire length, I do think light tuners will make a big difference. I doubt you'd need to add weight to the body.

J.[/quote]

Great, thanks I'm going to try this as well I reckon. A couple of tweaks should be enough hopefully.

[quote name='Darkstrike' post='940301' date='Aug 30 2010, 08:13 PM']I'd definatly try light tuners, they make a big difference, IMHO.[/quote]

Any ideas on the best brand to go for, or are they all basically the same?

What size would I need also?

Cheers

[Darkstrike]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='940499' date='Aug 30 2010, 10:59 PM']Any ideas on the best brand to go for, or are they all basically the same?

What size would I need also?

Cheers[/quote]

I've used Hipshots to good effect, I can't remember what the size is though, should say on their site.

[cameltoe]

Good work,

Any idea where I can get these in the UK? or will I have to have them shipped over?

Also, what does it mean when they ask 'Bass side' or 'Treble side'? Or does 'Treble side' just apply to basses that have tuners upside down on the bottom of the headstock?

Do these fit the standard Fender screw holes? I notice they are standard fitment on the new 2010 American Standard Precisions, so maybe.......

*EDIT*
Doesn't look like they will, not with only one screw!

Edited August 30, 2010 by cameltoe

[Darkstrike]

I got them shipped direct, you got it on the bass/treble side deal, and yeah, lightweight tuners do need a new screwhole, but will be covered up, if you return to stock.

[rodl2005]

In a recent issue of BASS PLAYER mag there was an advert for a strap that has a pocket with 3 small lead weights in the body side of the strap- to counter this exact problem. The weights are removeable so U can get the balance right with the minimum of weight.

PM me if U want more info & I'll try 'n find the mag.

[EBS_freak]

In addition to adding hipshot lightweight tuners to the headstock, add a hipshot brass bridge (you can get Fender fit so you don't have to drill the body differently). Should help add some mass to the body to counteract the head dive.

[Jamesemt]

I think that you will find with a good set of lighweight tuners that the problem goes.

I've just changed a set on a US 62RI J neck and the difference is incredible.

PM me for an idea of where to buy them from the states...

[cameltoe]

I'm definitely going to pursue the lightweight tuners, and take it from there. Thanks for all the advice so far. If the tuners themselves don't do enough then I'll look into a higher mass bridge and a bridge cover. The roadworn already has the holes drilled for the cover so it's no bother!

Can anyone tell me what size tuners I will need?

I also noticed Fender do there own lightweight tuners, as fitted to earlier Am St. Precisions, are these not really worth the effort? Just thinking they may fit the orginal holes.

Edited August 31, 2010 by cameltoe

[BB2000]

[quote name='cameltoe' post='941045' date='Aug 31 2010, 03:16 PM']Can anyone tell me what size tuners I will need?[/quote]

Read my earlier post.

[LawrenceH]

Before shelling out for hipshots, take off one of the tuners and weigh it to check the difference is enough to be worthwhile when multiplied by 4. I know the stock tuners on my Classic Series 70s RI are a LOT lighter than the tuners on my Jap 75RI which feel like they're made of depleted uranium.

[cameltoe]

[quote name='BB2000' post='941082' date='Aug 31 2010, 04:25 PM']Read my earlier post.[/quote]

OK thanks, I didn't realise that the product code was the correct fitment.

These look great, and I see thay weigh in at 64 grams each.

The hipshots weigh in at 47 grams, according to [url="http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/Bass_Guitar_Luthiery"]here[/url]

I'm going to weigh one of my tuners tomorrw, to see what they come in at.
Obviously there's a bit of a difference, and I can find the Hipshot's for a fair bit less (about £90 to the Gotoh's £130), BUT- they do look a bit crap TBH.
The gotoh's slot in as standard. I realise I can take it back to standard, but once they're on I won't want to take them off unless I was selling the bass (which I'm not going to).

Any further advice would be gratefully received. I'm umming and ahhing between the two.

Edited August 31, 2010 by cameltoe