Bass Lessons

[the_skezz]

[quote name='Doddy' post='942908' date='Sep 2 2010, 01:11 AM']They aren't mandatory,but if you do have 'a will to better yourself' you will improve better and faster with a good
teacher than on your own. If you want to improve that much,why wouldn't you seek out a good teacher and learn
everything that you can?[/quote]

An interesting point, that. To be fair, I would probably take some lessons if I had the cash for it, but I've heard from a fair few people who have had musical lessons (in bass and other instruments) and some have found the teaching to not be particularly helpful, other than the basics when starting out. The only exception of them that comes to mind is my friend Nathan, who was taught slap bass at college, and got very good at it doing so...that said, he'd been taking guitar lessons for about eight years before that.

Sometimes I do want to greatly improve what I know on the technical front, usually looking at internet videos to do so (I know, not as good as a real teacher) and so persevere until I'm half decent at whatever I'm trying to pick up. I know I could get further with a teacher, but part of the fun for me is doing what I want, when I want - I know, I'm an awkward sod

Once I've got a job (hopefully sometime before the four horsemen start riding) I will look into lessons, if only just to try them out. Despite the above paragraph, I understand that it can't be all fun and games if I really do want to better myself, and reading this thread reinforces my desire to put the effort in, knowing what I might get out of it.

[Doddy]

If they haven't found the lessons helpful,then that kind of resorts to my previous post. It could be that either the teacher
wasn't good enough,the student was unwilling,or a mixture of both. If the teacher is good and the student wants to learn,
improvement is pretty much guaranteed.

As far as wanting to do what you want,when you want, lessons should not hinder this-The idea is to work it all together.
If you are studying,say,arpeggios with your teacher,that doesn't mean you can't pick up a book of rock transcriptions. You
can still play around as long as you dedicate a good portion of your practise time on the arpeggios. If you do it right,you will see
how it all helps each other. When I was having regular lessons we did a lot of reading exercises and walking lines,but I still found
time to learn some Primus and some Jaco or whatever else I was into. It's a matter of striking a balance between doing your
'homework' and having fun.If you are really into it,like I am,the hard study is just as much fun as the jamming around,and
the hours just fly by.

[thisnameistaken]

But if we were all studious musical experts, most of us would be unfulfilled and suicidal, surely? It's like the business with all A-Level students rocking the results and the Unis not being big enough to sell them all degrees - ultimately for most people it would make more sense to just follow a different route.

[the_skezz]

Very good points, I agree completely. Particularly that the student needs to be willing (my mates - not excluding myself - can be extremely awkward when it comes down to doing what we want to do XD )

Free time permitting, I think I'll look into lessons once I've got a job, or when I claim incapacity benefit after exhausting myself into a coma after filling out all these damn application forms For now I'd best be going to bed, it's been a hard day's band practise - ripping the mickey out of the drummer really takes it out of you. G'night, cheers for your responses to my posts

[tjm]

What is the average rate for bass lessons? I have been playing for a few years now but I would definitely be interested in lessons if the right guy came along. I wouldn't know where to start looking for an appropriate teacher though because I have pretty much mastered smoke on the water, and could probably play the notes to anything you put in front of me, even by ear, but my technique is most definitely far from perfect.

[Doddy]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='942923' date='Sep 2 2010, 02:16 AM']But if we were all studious musical experts, most of us would be unfulfilled and suicidal, surely?[/quote]

Why would you be unfulfilled and suicidal? Surely if you really love something you would want to know as much about
it as you possibly could?
If you are unfulfilled then I guess you are doing something wrong somewhere. You can study as
much as you want and still find time to play along to your favourite records and jam with others. The two are not mutually
exclusive.

[tom1946]

I find this very frustrating because now I'm retired I have time (and money) to have lessons. I've been playing bass in our church band for 2 years, self taught with just bass notes above the words and learning a few basic runs. I don't read music.
I played 12 string for 45 years on and off until our bass player left hence I'm the default bassist because my wife also plays guitar and sings a lot better than me

I'm Teesside area and I can't find a bass teacher so I'm in a rut. I did find one guy but he only wanted to show me his gear and how good he was and after one 'lesson' that was the end of that.

I would love to find a good teacher.

[DaveB]

[quote name='tjm' post='942929' date='Sep 2 2010, 02:50 AM']What is the average rate for bass lessons?[/quote]

I teach privately and at a music school. At the music school the rate is set at £16.75 per half hour (of which I pay £3.75 back to them in rent), I just charge £16.50 as the 25p is hassle for change. Privately I charge £15 per half hour for change sake. I would by no mean class myself as a world class player, of which I would expect to pay more for. Seems to be the going rate round here. What annoys me more than anything is when I see adverts for guitar teachers etc at £10 an hour. If your good enough to teach, then charge the going rate and don't be a dick under cutting everyone else by such a massive amount.
Lessons aren't cheap but I know I wouldn't be half the player I am with out them.

I would agree mostly with what you say Doddy but I think you do have to remember there will be two types of players you will have come to you. Those who like us want to learn and study as much as possible, and those who just want to come along and learn their favourite songs. For example one girl I teach loves green day so we tend to just work through her favourite songs etc looking at new techniques as they arise, I do make sure she understands at least the basic theory of what we are learning but she is quite happy coming every week just to do that. Another student I have actually wants to sap every ounce of knowledge from me I can, requests homework etc.

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

I have survived over three decades as a bass teacher and the problems discussed here are nothing new to say the least. You guys out there as teachers? I hate to break it to you, but part of your job is inspiring your students to be the best they can be. Notice the choice of words I use- “be the best THEY can be.”

Many teachers suffer from advising their students to develop the fundamentals without actually relating it to what they wanted to know how to do: PLAYING! Many teachers also think they know the fundamentals, but in reality many don't.

To those who don’t believe they need to learn anything new, please remember- music is a language, an expressive language, but universal nevertheless. You have to be able to play what you hear and hear what you play. Hands down, whether you like it or not, this takes skill and a desire to get good. It doesn't matter whether you have all the determination and dedication in the world, without the "desire" your are doomed for failure.

Peace

Joe

Edited September 2, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='942210' date='Sep 1 2010, 03:11 PM']Noone seems to understand the concept of deferred gratification and the benefits of long term study any more. Its all 'want it, have it'. That and the fact that most kids never see a live musician until they think its too late to learn (i.e. after their 16th birthday). I have watched a couple of Glastonbury/Leeds/Reading acts over the last few days and the playing of most of them is pretty poor. No lessons needed to achieve the dizzy heights achieved by the Libertines' bass player .[/quote]

It used to be that playing a rock instrument well would impress the members of the opposite sex. So that 13 year-olds would suddenly take up instruments. What impresses the opposite sex at that age these days?

I saw my first concert when I was 12. Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. I suppose that would be against health and safety regulations these days, or there'd be an age rating on it or something.

[Bilbo]

Joe's point is a valid one. In order to teach, you need to establish what it is the student wants to learn. If they are happy to thump away in a metal band, do you really need to discuss advanced harmonic concepts like quartal harmony?

I guess there is a fundamental difference with bass playing over (most) other musical disciplines. Most conventional musical instruments are initially taught to children who are 'forced' (or at least coerced) to go for lessons by their parents. Most bass players start because they, as independent thinkers, [b]choose[/b] to, probably as teenagers. More to the point, many teenagers would actually be discouraged from spending time with the bass as it would take them away from the 'important' things like GCSEs. Most classical students don't start out with the ambition of being a 'popstar' and the acceptability of the genre supports the investment in tuition. Most parents would probably assume that their bass player children are just fantasists and shouldn't be encouraged ('last year he wanted to be an astronaut'). This difference in motivation changes the whole dynamic of the teacher pupil relationship. Those who realise the value of proper training are often the children of musicians who either did or did not get that education.

[Starless]

If I can slip into 'when I were a lad' mode for a moment or two, there was no such thing as a bass teacher when I was 13. There was no tab, just piano based sheet music for the day's popular music hits. Probably one of my first achievements at that age was memorising the chords to Ride A White Swan while flicking through the sheet music rack, dashing home and trying it out with the record playing in the back ground. I was a star!

My 'teachers' came on platters of black vinyl and I could call on them any time I wanted, John Paul Jones, Andy Fraser, Jack Bruce - all at my beck and call whenever I needed to try figure something out. I wanted to emulate these people, and in the process of copying them picked up the greatest skill of them all which cannot be taught - how to LISTEN. The more bass lines you figure out by listening to them, the faster and easier it becomes to figure out the next one. Led Zep II was a struggle, but by Led Zep IV I was playing along very quickly. No one showed me how to play bass, they didn't need to because it really isn't rocket science. Here's a simple test. Go and find a song that you are not familiar with (nothing too taxing bass-wise) and listen to it. Give yourself a week (no cheating, no tab, no sheet music), and if you can't play the bass line (doesn't have to be at the correct tempo, just the correct notes) then no amount of 'teaching' is going to make a blind bit of difference in the long run. Consider percussion as a career path.

Did JPJ place his thumb in the same place as Jack Bruce? or did Andy Fraser utilise one-finger-per-fret or....... who gives a hoot - certainly not me. If I picked up 'bad habits' then I continue to be blissfully un-aware that these are bad habits, and it bothers me not one jot as long as I can still play the damn music. I recently acquired a double bass and decided to check on t'interweb for the correct way to hold a French bow. Waste of time, there are 101 different experts out there who advise 101 different ways to hold it - so I'll do what comes naturally. What's the point of paying money to a teacher who, after trying various hand positions will declare, "Hmm.. just do it the way that feels most comfortable for you, that'll be £17.50 please" - Ker-chinng!

The little runs and shapes that John, Jack and Andy taught me are not cast in concrete in the songs that I orginally learned, I can use them all over the place. They may be pentatonically ambioniphonicly Gregarian in their pentanamera Diolithian progression but that is information that I've managed to do without in a playing situation thus far and am happy to maintain this level of ignorance until the day I die (life really is too short).

If someone is serious about taking up the bass, then my advice is to acquire THE most important piece of kit at least 6 months prior to purchasing their first bass.

A six-stringed acoustic guitar.

There, I've said it. This notion that bass is somehow on a different cerebral plain from six-stringers has the unfortunate side-effect of making people think that it is perfectly acceptable to learn bass - and nothing else. How many 'proper' bassists are there out there in the real world of showbiz who have no idea how to hold down a G7 or Am on a six-stringer? What kind of bassist takes part in a jam session and can't recognise the shapes that the guitarist is making with his hand on the fretboard? A less than desirable one, that's what.

Apart from anything else, an acoustic guitar is very easy to pick up and noodle around on the bottom four strings (yes kids, they are tuned the same as a bass) without annoying the neighbours. You're not wanting to start churning out highly complex classical or finger-pickin' tunes, just master the basics of at least 1st position chord shapes, so if Bert Weedon's 'Play In A Day' is too complicated for someone to master on their own then again, they should start looking for a nice second-hand drum kit - not a teacher (who will just be following Bert's 'syllabus' anyway)

If someone's attitude to bass (or guitar) is, 'I can't play because I need someone to teach me', then they can't play, and should just take up golf.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Starless' post='943664' date='Sep 2 2010, 05:03 PM']If I can slip into 'when I were a lad' mode for a moment or two, there was no such thing as a bass teacher when I was 13. There was no tab, just piano based sheet music for the day's popular music hits. Probably one of my first achievements at that age was memorising the chords to Ride A White Swan while flicking through the sheet music rack, dashing home and trying it out with the record playing in the back ground. I was a star!

My 'teachers' came on platters of black vinyl and I could call on them any time I wanted, John Paul Jones, Andy Fraser, Jack Bruce - all at my beck and call whenever I needed to try figure something out. I wanted to emulate these people, and in the process of copying them picked up the greatest skill of them all which cannot be taught - how to LISTEN. The more bass lines you figure out by listening to them, the faster and easier it becomes to figure out the next one. Led Zep II was a struggle, but by Led Zep IV I was playing along very quickly. No one showed me how to play bass, they didn't need to because it really isn't rocket science. Here's a simple test. Go and find a song that you are not familiar with (nothing too taxing bass-wise) and listen to it. Give yourself a week (no cheating, no tab, no sheet music), and if you can't play the bass line (doesn't have to be at the correct tempo, just the correct notes) then no amount of 'teaching' is going to make a blind bit of difference in the long run. Consider percussion as a career path.

Did JPJ place his thumb in the same place as Jack Bruce? or did Andy Fraser utilise one-finger-per-fret or....... who gives a hoot - certainly not me. If I picked up 'bad habits' then I continue to be blissfully un-aware that these are bad habits, and it bothers me not one jot as long as I can still play the damn music. I recently acquired a double bass and decided to check on t'interweb for the correct way to hold a French bow. Waste of time, there are 101 different experts out there who advise 101 different ways to hold it - so I'll do what comes naturally. What's the point of paying money to a teacher who, after trying various hand positions will declare, "Hmm.. just do it the way that feels most comfortable for you, that'll be £17.50 please" - Ker-chinng!

The little runs and shapes that John, Jack and Andy taught me are not cast in concrete in the songs that I orginally learned, I can use them all over the place. They may be pentatonically ambioniphonicly Gregarian in their pentanamera Diolithian progression but that is information that I've managed to do without in a playing situation thus far and am happy to maintain this level of ignorance until the day I die (life really is too short).

If someone is serious about taking up the bass, then my advice is to acquire THE most important piece of kit at least 6 months prior to purchasing their first bass.

A six-stringed acoustic guitar.

There, I've said it. This notion that bass is somehow on a different cerebral plain from six-stringers has the unfortunate side-effect of making people think that it is perfectly acceptable to learn bass - and nothing else. How many 'proper' bassists are there out there in the real world of showbiz who have no idea how to hold down a G7 or Am on a six-stringer? What kind of bassist takes part in a jam session and can't recognise the shapes that the guitarist is making with his hand on the fretboard? A less than desirable one, that's what.

Apart from anything else, an acoustic guitar is very easy to pick up and noodle around on the bottom four strings (yes kids, they are tuned the same as a bass) without annoying the neighbours. You're not wanting to start churning out highly complex classical or finger-pickin' tunes, just master the basics of at least 1st position chord shapes, so if Bert Weedon's 'Play In A Day' is too complicated for someone to master on their own then again, they should start looking for a nice second-hand drum kit - not a teacher (who will just be following Bert's 'syllabus' anyway)

If someone's attitude to bass (or guitar) is, 'I can't play because I need someone to teach me', then they can't play, and should just take up golf.[/quote]

Interesting post, and one I can relate to. I learned everything from playing along to records.

[Doddy]

Joe-I totally agree with you about motivating the students to be the best that they can be,but unfortunately(at least around
this area) a lot of people don't want to be the best they can,they are happy to settle for mediocrity. You can see the potential
in them,but they won't put the work in. Now that I'm teaching privately,the students I have are happy to put the work in and
study and become better,and their progress is strikingly obvious.
I loved to study and practice and will happily spend hours running through exercises,and am constantly trying to improve.

Starless-I don't know what you play like or anything,but I think their is a chunk of sh*t in your post. You mention that a 'less than
desirable' bass player wouldn't know the chord shapes. I would prefer player to use a combination of listening and knowledge
to identify the chords rather than go by a visual shape. To me it's more important to know the sound and the notes of a G7
chord rather than it's shape.
You mention a couple of times about if you can't play something you should look at drums. This is really not cool. My arguments in
favour of lessons are equally applicable to any instrument,and to play drums well requires just as much study as bass or guitar.
What's the point of paying a teacher who says 'do what feels comfortable to you'? None,because a good teacher will work with you
and not just tell you to do whatever you want and take your money.
There is nothing wrong with learning from records,in fact it's essential,but there is so much more to learn that will open up many more
musical opportunities to you.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='943714' date='Sep 2 2010, 05:59 PM']Joe-I totally agree with you about motivating the students to be the best that they can be,but unfortunately(at least around
this area) a lot of people don't want to be the best they can,they are happy to settle for mediocrity. You can see the potential
in them,but they won't put the work in.[/quote]

I've seen this a lot with people in my area and amongst some of my students.

They like to push themselves a little bit and then decide ego is more important.

They all seem to prefer the comfort and recognition that comes with being a big fish in a little pond.

Shame really.

Edited September 2, 2010 by skej21

[Bilbo]

Like Starless, where I grew up there were no teachers, no books, no videos etc etc. So I too had to learn from records etc.

Put me back two decades.

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='943450' date='Sep 2 2010, 02:51 PM']Joe's point is a valid one. In order to teach, you need to establish what it is the student wants to learn. If they are happy to thump away in a metal band, do you really need to discuss advanced harmonic concepts like quartal harmony?[/quote]

I need to re-phrase what I said. The student seeks out lessons because he wants to learn to play. However, as a teacher, it is your responsibility to teach them the language of music (Jeff Berlin has a good maxim that paraphrased goes something like, "Mozart, Van Halen and Duke Ellington all use a G major chord; the language of music has no barriers stylistically). If I were to seek out Arabic lessons because I was working out in the Middle East, I would want to be able to have a "conversation" in Arabic with the locals. I wouldn't, however, have a clue to what the individual components would be that are needed to learn how to interact with someone speaking Arabic. That is what I am paying a teacher for- his expertise.

My advice is to do your homework when seeking out a teacher. These days any Jake Leg can stick up an add and claim they know what they are talking about. And...instead of that acoustic 6-string, learn something about the piano. As an old teacher of mine once said, "All piano players are closer to God."
When I asked what he meant about that, he said that piano players have the whole orchestra at their finger tips.

Peace

Joe

Edited September 2, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Pete Academy]

How many people on here have used internet resources to learn bass? ie. youtube etc. Also DVDs?

[Pete Academy]

There's so much more media available these days. I can relate to Starless because when I started there wasn't much available in the way of teaching books. Good old Bert Weedon showed me some chords on the acoustic, then my brother bought me a cheapo bass and I picked everything up from records and the odd bass book.

When i first heard slap bass in the early 70s, I really wish I had a teacher to show me what to do, as I originally thought it was being played with the finger ends, especially after seeing Pops Popwell on the OGWT. Would have saved me loads of time and pain.

I did teach for a few years, and I did try to motivate players, but my lack of theory knowledge forced me to quit, as I felt I was cheating people a bit. However, I did find that there are the kids that want to learn a few riffs, and then there are those that really want to push for something higher.

[Pete Academy]

In my 20s I decided i wanted to learn some jazz, and so enlisted the help of a teacher. He started the first lesson by slagging off my Steinberger L2 (not a 'real' bass) and then drew a diagram of the circle of fifths, without explaining what to do with it.

Put me off a bit.

[Starless]

[quote name='Doddy' post='943714' date='Sep 2 2010, 05:59 PM']Starless-I don't know what you play like or anything...[/quote]

I play like John Paul Jones, Jack Bruce and Andy Fraser.


[quote name='Doddy' post='943714' date='Sep 2 2010, 05:59 PM']....the students I have are happy to put the work in and study....
...I loved to study and practice....
...requires just as much study.....[/quote]

I don't think we will ever see bass playing or it's place in youth culture (or any age-group culture) from the same point of view. To me that word 'study' belongs in the vocabulary of the technically perfect classical cellist or horn player, or student preparing for exams. The bass guitar is a 'modern' instrument born out of Jazz and brought up by rock, pop, prog, punk etc.

Technical perfection in these genres may be attainable, but I would suggest they are less than desirable. If your students are 'happy to put the work in' then by that I hope you mean they are keen to progress. It sure as hell has never been 'work' to me.

This relatively recent formalisation of bass and (non-classical) guitar into grades through Exam Boards and the rest is heartbreaking to someone like me who grew up when these instruments were 'dangerous', un-appreciated (and positively discouraged) by parents and to master them meant going it alone and forging your own take on the groundwork laid down by those before you. I'm pretty sure Eric Clapton never sat any 'GCSE Delta Blues (Acoustic)' grading exams. If he had, he would have repeated parrot fashion what his syllabus taught and nothing would have progressed, because he would have been 'trained' to do it the right way. Nothing of any lasting value in rock has ever been done 'the right way'. Is it any wonder that the world is currently full of teen/twenties guitar bands doing absolutely nothing new? I'm 53, why am I not being outraged at what kids 30 years younger then me are producing, like my parents before me were (and their parents before them - my grandparents couldn't stand that new-fangled Jazz, my parents just didn't get anything from the 60's onwards).

As long as bass teachers keep churning out Flea clones and guitar teachers keep churning out Slash clones and the rest, then I fear nothing will ever change again.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Starless

[Pete Academy]

I'm roughly the same age as Starless, so I can see his point. I admit bass lessons would have helped me a great deal in my younger days, but I look back and think how enjoyable it was learning to play in those days. Stanley Clarke and Jaco were big selling artists. Disco and funk produced some great bass lines. I never ever sat down to practise and thought: 'This is a chore'. It was always exciting, and I couldn't wait to get home from school/work to do so.

My original post posed the theory that there aren't the players to motivate kids. Love him or loathe him, when Mark King came on the scene, people were crazy to learn bass. Ditto with Flea.

I also agree with the 'Guitar Hero' theory. Kids want it to be as easy as playing that game.

On the other side of the coin I have seen young kids progress to ridiculous standards, and now attend jazz schools etc.

I would seriously recommend watching Victor Wooten's last DVD, as he explains the 'language of music' very well.

[Pete Academy]

I hate to say this but at fifteen to twenty pounds a lesson, Youtube is an economical alternative.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Starless' post='943775' date='Sep 2 2010, 06:45 PM']Technical perfection in these genres may be attainable, but I would suggest they are less than desirable. If your students are 'happy to put the work in' then by that I hope you mean they are keen to progress. It sure as hell has never been 'work' to me.
........

As long as bass teachers keep churning out Flea clones and guitar teachers keep churning out Slash clones and the rest, then I fear nothing will ever change again.[/quote]

When I say about 'putting the work in' if you want to progress to your fullest extent it's not always about just having fun jamming.
It takes time to understand things like chord structures and how to read,that's where the 'work' comes in. My students who are
serious about learning the instrument realise this and split their time between the 'work' and the 'fun'. Personally,I find studying
music just as much fun as playing along to records,and want to be prepared for anything that may be thrown at me.

If a teacher is 'churning out Flea clones' then they aren't doing a good job and are probably just teaching Flea licks,which really
defeats the object of 'music' lessons and goes back to my earlier post about teachers who don't know enough to teach.

[oldslapper]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='943787' date='Sep 2 2010, 06:55 PM']My original post posed the theory that there aren't the players to motivate kids. Love him or loathe him, when Mark King came on the scene, people were crazy to learn bass. Ditto with Flea.

I also agree with the 'Guitar Hero' theory. Kids want it to be as easy as playing that game.

On the other side of the coin I have seen young kids progress to ridiculous standards, and now attend jazz schools etc.

I would seriously recommend watching Victor Wooten's last DVD, as he explains the 'language of music' very well.[/quote]

I like that Wooten quote Pete.
If you liken playing the bass (or music generally) as a speaking a language then:

Brain fart ensues:-

- there are some who learn a language by spending time in another country and they pick up the lingo by listening and spending time with the locals and can mimic, they often absorb the "emotion" of the language too, but often they can't explain the theory or the grammar behind the language. But they speak, and are understood and listen and understand.
However, this can be a little restrictive in that their vocabulary can be narrow and the accent they've adopted may not be "transferable" in another part of the country, let alone another country.

- there are those who study a language, are taught by tutors who explain and break down the grammar, they are taught and understand structure (often the roots (greek perhaps) of a language enable the student to have a broader grasp of other foreign languages). These students may never visit the country, and may never absorb the emotion of the language, but they too can speak and be understood and listen and understand.

For me, the best is both. Study to broaden your vocabulary and understanding, but go listen to the locals talk.
Study, listen and PLAY.

Sorry about that, probably all clap trap,..........please ignore.

John