Playing with drummers with electronic kits

[molan]

Auditioned a drummer last night who arrived with a Roland kit. My first impressions were quite good, I was thinking that it was easy to transport, really quick to set up, easy to turn down etc

When he first started playing I thought the core sounds were Ok with the possible exception of the snare which lacked the snap & sizzle of a quality snare.

However once we started playing I found it really hard to lock in with the kick or snare & everything just sounded a bit middley & mushy. Just didn't sound like a drum kit to me

I think this one was a pretty basic version but I've heard a few live and always thought they sounded a bit processed and lacking a live kit sound & have yet to hear one with a decent snare.

Maybe I'm just an old fashioned kinda guy & need to be a bit more open to new sounds?

[BigAlonBass]

On a local Music Site that I frequent, most of the "Drummer Wanted" Ads actually stipulate 'no electronic kits' in the posts. Admittedly, it's a Rock-orientated forum, but it seems that a lot of people are starting to feel the same way that you (and I) do. Nothing beats the sound or feel of an acoustic kit moving some air for us to lock in with. (IMHO)

[Dood]

It took me a little while to adjust when I started playing with drummers using electronic kits. I think what can be a problem (much like bass gear actually) is the amplification and cabinets used to play back the drum audio. Small under powered PA speakers for example are cr@p! especially if they need to be cranked, which compounds the issue. The different drums sounds have less definition and rubbish tweeters add so much shrill top end it's difficult to hear the pulse of the kit.

I'd liken having an electronic kit behind me to playing with in-ear-monitoring. Something 'feels' lost without the amps roaring behind you if you see what I mean?

My other thought is - and this is true for Bass Players and Guitarists alike - A great deal of us don't want 100 different settings and buttons to push to make the thing sound right. - Plug in and sounds great out of the box. - Sadly, and is the case with a certain manufacurer of guitar effects units - the default patches stored 'out of the box' can be rubbish - and if the time isn't taken to work out what sounds great in different environments - then it's no surprise it won't perform as expected. It'd be like turning up for a gig and not bothering to touch any of the controls on our gear before playing! he he!

I'm really happy with working with electronic kits now. Infact, I really love working with non-acoustic kit sounds. Messing around with the old 808 drum machine type sounds or indeed even pitched sounds!

[xgsjx]

I know a drummer who has a belter of a Roland kit & has one of those Bose portable PA systems. Sounds immense.

A drum player (not a drummer) that I sometimes have to play with bought a cheapo e kit for £200 off eBay (despite being told not to) & it's gantin. Plays it thru a wee fender practice combo!

[quote name='dood' post='942865' date='Sep 2 2010, 12:00 AM']I'd liken having an electronic kit behind me to playing with in-ear-monitoring. Something 'feels' lost without the amps roaring behind you if you see what I mean?[/quote]

I hope that's an Ampeg rig behind you now!

[the_skezz]

Never felt the same energy playing with a drummer with an electric kit that you get with a proper kit. Good for studio use and effects, but I much prefer the real thing for practise and gigs.

[Stingray5]

[quote name='dood' post='942865' date='Sep 2 2010, 12:00 AM']It took me a little while to adjust when I started playing with drummers using electronic kits. I think what can be a problem (much like bass gear actually) is the amplification and cabinets used to play back the drum audio. Small under powered PA speakers for example are cr@p! especially if they need to be cranked, which compounds the issue. The different drums sounds have less definition and rubbish tweeters add so much shrill top end it's difficult to hear the pulse of the kit.[/quote]
+1
dood is absolutely right regarding the amps/cabs/etc used. It makes a huge difference. The more expensive kits with all mesh heads and better modules have a far better sound and feel, according to Roland-playing drummers I've worked with. One let-down can be when 'real' kit is mixed with 'electronic kit'. This makes it even harder to get a good balanced sound for both on stage and FOH.
It's also even more important that everyone is hearing the drums properly via monitors. In smaller venues you can sometimes get away with a good drum amp or small dedicated drum PA rig that the rest of the band can also hear.
There's certainly more to it when going with electronic drums and it's understandable why drummers would rather stick to acoustic kits. But on one particular gig I played a while back, the drummer had a top-of-the-range Roland TD-20 which sounded glorious, especially through a decent PA.
And of course, when working with a drummer who just can't hit the drums hard enough, it's easier to bring him down!!

[molan]

Having read some of the posts here I do wonder if it just because he was using cheap Roland kit. It only had 10 pre-sets apparently.

I asked if it had a nice 808 sound and he had no idea what I was talking about but proceeded to try and use a really nasty sounding syn-drum patch instead.

[bobbytodd]

our drummer uses a roland v kit the one with the mesh heads and for the really small pubs we sometimes play its great because you can set the onstage volume really low and at the end of the night your ears are not ringing like hell.

[Bigwan]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='942944' date='Sep 2 2010, 06:51 AM']our drummer uses a roland v kit the one with the mesh heads and for the really small pubs we sometimes play its great because you can set the onstage volume really low and at the end of the night your ears are not ringing like hell.[/quote]

Exactly the same as me. I'd no probs with moving to playing with an e-kit. Much prefer it actually.

[BigRedX]

If it's a modern kit (one made in the last 10 years) and it's not sounding right then it's because the drummer hasn't taken the time to sort it out.

You need to edit the sounds both from a sound PoV and to respond properly to your playing technique. Unless your the person who wrote all the presets then straight out of the box it's unlikely to be set up in a way that will let you get the best out of it.

Secondly as Dood said amplification matters. I've found that a lot of drummers using electronic kits these days have bought them to allow home practice on headphones. It probably sounds fantastic the them, but when playing live you need a decent amplification system to get the best out of it. If you wouldn't consider mic'ing up acoustic drums through your PA then it's probably not up to reproducing electronic drums properly either. Also the sounds will probably need tweaking to match up with the PA system.

[Fat Rich]

I spent ages tweaking the standard sounds in my Roland kit, but realised later what sounds good through headphones doesn't work through a PA.... and as everyone has said it needs to be a good PA with plenty of oooomf or the rest of the band will struggle to lock in.

In some ways it's good that this drummer is more interested in playing his kit than fiddling with the settings, but if he's not getting into bands because his sound isn't right then maybe you should have a word!

[BobVbass]

our old drummer had a top of the range roland kit with mackie speakers and sub woofer and it was brilliant - great to be able to change drum sounds to suit the song (or part of the song) saying that tho it wasn't any smaller than an acoustic kit with all that added.

Current drummer uses a cheap yamaha electronic kit for practice and yes - it's crap

[derrenleepoole]

Our drummer uses an eKit, and it's great! When we're playing at volume and everything is belting out to the audience, most people are hard pressed to tell the difference during a live show. A lot of the subtle nuances that are possible with a normal kit are not possible on an eKit. However, most of these will be drowned out in all likelihood during a lively set, so you don't really notice it on the eKit unless we play quieter, but even then it's not massively noticeable.

The big difference for me is the level on stage. Because there is no large kit to amplify against before you even begin to amplify for the venue, the backline is much more pleasurable volume wise, and better for the hearing as a result

You do need a good eKit though, cheap ones just don't cut it.

[bluesparky]

I've done a couple of gigs recently where the drummer used an electric kit.
It did keep the on stage volume down, and also the out-front volume was at a level where the punters didn't leave with bleeding ears.
However both times, because of the set-up the drum sound was only coming out of the drummer's monitor (which was to his right and pointing at him and i was playing on stage right) and out front, i couldn't hear him, which meant i spent the entire gig with my head pretty much bent over his kit so i could hear him play through his monitor.
To try to get over this he turned up, which meant he was louder, therefore everyone else turned up....
I much prefer playing with a drummer with a "proper" kit.

[Bigwan]

[quote name='bluesparky' post='943118' date='Sep 2 2010, 10:45 AM']I've done a couple of gigs recently where the drummer used an electric kit.
It did keep the on stage volume down, and also the out-front volume was at a level where the punters didn't leave with bleeding ears.
However both times, because of the set-up the drum sound was only coming out of the drummer's monitor (which was to his right and pointing at him and i was playing on stage right) and out front, i couldn't hear him, which meant i spent the entire gig with my head pretty much bent over his kit so i could hear him play through his monitor.
To try to get over this he turned up, which meant he was louder, therefore everyone else turned up....
I much prefer playing with a drummer with a "proper" kit.[/quote]

Don't you have a monitor too? If not, why not? They're really a must if playing with an e-kit, but then I think they're a must anyway!

[DanOwens]

I play in a DnB band and our drummer has had no end of problems with amplification. What do you guys use to feed the on-stage sound? Usually, the monitor mix just doesn't cut it!

Dan

[hillbilly deluxe]

[quote name='xgsjx' date='Sep 2 2010, 12:36 AM' post='942891']
I know a drummer who has a belter of a Roland kit & has one of those Bose portable PA systems. Sounds immense.




Sounds like my drummer.

[JTUK]

All down to the monitoring....but these days I don't like to see them on my gigs.

A decent player who can tune his kit is all that you need... and surprisningly a lot of guys don't seem to have much of a clue.
When these things were more in fashion, then the sounds could be dialled up pretty quickly, but now most guys who know what to do, can tune their acoustic kit in a few minutes..well, 10 or so, for the worse of rooms.

[hillbilly deluxe]

Our drummer uses the previously mentioned Bose system into the desk,so we can do the occasional quieter club gigs easily.Im sure that he uses a different brand electronic snare too.

JTUK,for gods sake who is that in your avatar ? i have to read your posts 3 or 4 times.LOL

[JTUK]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='943614' date='Sep 2 2010, 04:33 PM']JTUK,for gods sake who is that in your avatar ? i have to read your posts 3 or 4 times.LOL[/quote]

Well, I talk load of crap anyway...
I have no idea who she is.
I was looking for someone who wasn't copywrited and found her on 'BIGTITS.com' or somewhere..

I guess I am going to have to trawl those all those mucky sites until I find out.

[Tee]

My previous last drummer had a nice expensive one. At rehearsals it was lovely, because there was a volume knob on the drum kit for once. It sounded like a perfectly tuned and mic'd up kit, not like someone 'putting up a shed' which is what you normally get on those beaten up rehearsal room kits. Live was another thing, on stage at least, because most venues don't actually invest in decent working stage monitors. FOH was brilliant though. I always prefer the look of an acoustic kit though.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Tee

[Max Normal]

Had a drummer that had one, think it was called a "Cheeter" or something, had it thru a Roland TG midi brain/sampler thingy. Sounded *OK*, you could dial in lots of different pro kits, but he used live cymbols with it so it was kind of disjointed, and of course lacked the punch of a real kit.

[SteveO]

A drummer with a volume knob?

sounds good to me.

[bluesparky]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='943159' date='Sep 2 2010, 11:13 AM']Don't you have a monitor too? If not, why not? They're really a must if playing with an e-kit, but then I think they're a must anyway![/quote]
I was only depping for someone and they "don't usually need them".....
I certainly know now that you do..

[TimR]

IME the drum kits come with different amounts of reverb on them to make them sound like they're being played in "a room", "concert hall" or "stadium". Anyone who has ever used one of those multi FX pedals that have a reverb effect on bass will say that this makes the bass sound really good soloed on headphones but as soon as you play through a cab in a room or with other players it completely destroys the intelligibility.

Find a kit with no reverb, or you may need to edit each drum to remove the reverb. Either that or get the drummer to build his own 'custom' kit using drums with no reverb.