Odd time signatures and odd timing

[Sub_Drop]

Can anyone recommend any helpful ways to improve on playing in odd time signatures and poly rhythms?
I know this is a general question but I'm just looking to improve my sense of timing when things aren't played to a straight 4/4 3/4 beat.

[Dood]

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='945744' date='Sep 4 2010, 10:43 PM']Can anyone recommend any helpful ways to improve on playing in odd time signatures and poly rhythms?
I know this is a general question but I'm just looking to improve my sense of timing when things aren't played to a straight 4/4 3/4 beat.[/quote]

I'm not sure what sort of music you like listening to, but I found one way was to learn and play along to songs that you know have sections of 'odd signatures'. Although it is important to be able to count the bars and understand their divisions from a theory point of view - I feel it is also important to be able to 'feel' the count when playing or jamming. Hard to describe really - but after a while you embed it in to your mind - it becomes second nature.

Try 'Money' by Pink Floyd, (7/4) 'Take 5' by The Dave Brubeck Quartet (5/4) and 'Surrounded' by Dream Theater.. (bit of a ballady song, but has a really tastey 9/8 intro and verses).

Whilst looking for ideas, I found a useful wiki! [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature[/url]

[Sub_Drop]

[quote name='dood' post='945766' date='Sep 4 2010, 11:23 PM']I'm not sure what sort of music you like listening to, but I found one way was to learn and play along to songs that you know have sections of 'odd signatures'. Although it is important to be able to count the bars and understand their divisions from a theory point of view - I feel it is also important to be able to 'feel' the count when playing or jamming. Hard to describe really - but after a while you embed it in to your mind - it becomes second nature.

Try 'Money' by Pink Floyd, (7/4) 'Take 5' by The Dave Brubeck Quartet (5/4) and 'Surrounded' by Dream Theater.. (bit of a ballady song, but has a really tastey 9/8 intro and verses).

Whilst looking for ideas, I found a useful wiki! [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature[/url][/quote]


Thanks alot will check out those songs. I've learnt money by pink floyd and listened to take 5 before.
I listen to alot of progressive stuff like between the buried and me but anything to do with odd time will help.
I understand the theory behind it and know how the rhythms are grouped and felt but actually 'feeling' the count while playing is something I cant do
but thanks for the advice

[endorka]

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='945770' date='Sep 4 2010, 11:30 PM']I understand the theory behind it and know how the rhythms are grouped and felt but actually 'feeling' the count while playing is something I cant do[/quote]

In my experience, the reason Western musicians cannot initially grasp the feel of odd time signatures, but can comfortably feel 4/4 and 3/4 is because they have had a lifetime of exposure to the latter, but virtually no experience of the former.

The only way to gain this ability with odd time signatures is to catch up with your lack of immersion in them; As Dood says, listen and play a lot of stuff like this and eventually playing it will feel natural.

It can take a lot of work though; you likely have decades of experience listening and/or playing in 4/4, but probably a few minutes of 9/8 or 11/8. That's a lot of catching up to do.

Some ethnic music is based around odd time signatures - one of my deepest experiences of this was playing Bartok's Divertimento, which is based largely around Hungarian rhythms, such as 11/8. It took a lot of practice for me to "get it", but in the end I did :-)

Jennifer

[Sub_Drop]

[quote name='endorka' post='945777' date='Sep 4 2010, 11:57 PM']In my experience, the reason Western musicians cannot initially grasp the feel of odd time signatures, but can comfortably feel 4/4 and 3/4 is because they have had a lifetime of exposure to the latter, but virtually no experience of the former.

The only way to gain this ability with odd time signatures is to catch up with your lack of immersion in them; As Dood says, listen and play a lot of stuff like this and eventually playing it will feel natural.

It can take a lot of work though; you likely have decades of experience listening and/or playing in 4/4, but probably a few minutes of 9/8 or 11/8. That's a lot of catching up to do.

Some ethnic music is based around odd time signatures - one of my deepest experiences of this was playing Bartok's Divertimento, which is based largely around Hungarian rhythms, such as 11/8. It took a lot of practice for me to "get it", but in the end I did :-)

Jennifer[/quote]


Thanks alot, I guess that's the best way.

[Quatschmacher]

I second the poster above who said immersion is the way. A lot of folk music from eastern europe is asymmetrical time signatures, so stuff from Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary etc. There's a great Hungarian band called Besh O Drom who are worth checking out. Can recommend a band called Farmers Market. Also check out Chris Potter's Underground (there's more asymmetrical stuff on his latest release "Ultrahang") and check out any albums by Dave Holland on which Chris Potter plays ("Critical Mass", "Extended Play", "Not for Nothing", "Prime Directive","Pathways" etc), loads of odd time signature stuff but still absolutely grooving. (And as a bass player you owe it to yourself to check Dave Holland out if you haven't done so already, he's fantastic.) Also check out Avishai Cohen there's a fair smattering of odd time signatures there, I recommend starting with the album "Continuo", also an astounding bass player.

[TKenrick]

As others have already said, total immersion through listening to/analysing/playing odd meter music is the only way to make it feel comfortable.

There are a few books on odd time playing, but they're only of real use if you want to get into reading odd time stuff as opposed to being able to groove. This one is fairly dull but if you can work through it then you'll certainly be able to handle almost anything:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odd-Time-Reading-Text-Instruments/dp/0769233724/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283705029&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odd-Time-Reading-T...5029&sr=1-1[/url]

Personally, I prefer to use songs as a way of getting used to playing in meters other than 4/4, here's a few to start off:

Foo Fighters - Times Like These (7/4)
Incubus - Nice To Know You (Intro alternates between 6/4 and 4/4)
Jeff Beck - Led Boots ('B' section is in 7/4)
Oceansize - Catalyst (Intro 7/4, verse alternates between 6/8 and 4/4)
Sting - Love Is Stronger Than Justice (7/8), Seven Days (5/4), Saint Augustine in Hell (7/8)
Tool - The Grudge (5/4), Vicarious (Mostly in 5/4)

I found that learning to count meters out loud while playing made things a whole lot easier, but it took me a long time to be able to separate my mouth/foot from what I was playing. Another thing to try is finding drummers who are comfortable in odd meters and find out how they break them down.

[Sub_Drop]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='946445' date='Sep 5 2010, 05:59 PM']As others have already said, total immersion through listening to/analysing/playing odd meter music is the only way to make it feel comfortable.

There are a few books on odd time playing, but they're only of real use if you want to get into reading odd time stuff as opposed to being able to groove. This one is fairly dull but if you can work through it then you'll certainly be able to handle almost anything:

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odd-Time-Reading-Text-Instruments/dp/0769233724/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283705029&sr=1-1"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Odd-Time-Reading-T...5029&sr=1-1[/url]

Personally, I prefer to use songs as a way of getting used to playing in meters other than 4/4, here's a few to start off:

Foo Fighters - Times Like These (7/4)
Incubus - Nice To Know You (Intro alternates between 6/4 and 4/4)
Jeff Beck - Led Boots ('B' section is in 7/4)
Oceansize - Catalyst (Intro 7/4, verse alternates between 6/8 and 4/4)
Sting - Love Is Stronger Than Justice (7/8), Seven Days (5/4), Saint Augustine in Hell (7/8)
Tool - The Grudge (5/4), Vicarious (Mostly in 5/4)

I found that learning to count meters out loud while playing made things a whole lot easier, but it took me a long time to be able to separate my mouth/foot from what I was playing. Another thing to try is finding drummers who are comfortable in odd meters and find out how they break them down.[/quote]




Thanks for the link to that book, Id love to be able to read more complex rhythms so thats a good help thanks.
Also thanks for the artists and song ideas shall have a listen to them all and finally start trying to internalise the 'feel' of odd times.

[endorka]

Another link for the party, the aforementioned Bartok Divertimento - brilliant but incredibly tricky to play!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vemkwcuNiT4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vemkwcuNiT4[/url]

Jennifer

[derrenleepoole]

If you want odd time signatures, check out King Crimson. Nuff said

[scalpy]

The above listening tips are fantastic, but as a further exercise break up the bar into sections. Get the hang of reliably finding "one" and then divide the rest of the bar into groups of two or three.

A bar of seven typically goes ONE two three FOUR five SIX seven although 2+3+2 and other combinations are obviously possible. Only tap your foot or aim to feel the first of the sections and it's surprising how the divisions and any syncopation drop into place. Playing Take Five I'd only tap to beats 1 and 4 for example.

If you're reading another tip is to take a tricky section and just draw a triangle over groups of 3, and a vertical lines over any 2s. I break down four quavers into 2 pairs in this instance. This helps working out the rhythm and when you're up to speed helps keep you on track. When I used to play test pieces with championship section brass bands (in another life) this was invaluable, as they try to melt your brain on purpose!

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='scalpy' post='947335' date='Sep 6 2010, 04:08 PM']When I used to play test pieces with championship section brass bands (in another life) this was invaluable, as they try to melt your brain on purpose![/quote]
I was only ever in a Section 4 band, with correspondingly fairly easy test pieces, but I loved hearing the absolute brain-f***ers the Championship Section guys had to play in the big contests. Hats off to you.

(Just as a slight derailment... what instrument?)

[Adrenochrome]

Another one to play along to is Future Breed Machine by Meshuggah.

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='scalpy' post='947335' date='Sep 6 2010, 04:08 PM']The above listening tips are fantastic, but as a further exercise break up the bar into sections. Get the hang of reliably finding "one" and then divide the rest of the bar into groups of two or three.

A bar of seven typically goes ONE two three FOUR five SIX seven although 2+3+2 and other combinations are obviously possible. Only tap your foot or aim to feel the first of the sections and it's surprising how the divisions and any syncopation drop into place. Playing Take Five I'd only tap to beats 1 and 4 for example.

If you're reading another tip is to take a tricky section and just draw a triangle over groups of 3, and a vertical lines over any 2s. I break down four quavers into 2 pairs in this instance. This helps working out the rhythm and when you're up to speed helps keep you on track. When I used to play test pieces with championship section brass bands (in another life) this was invaluable, as they try to melt your brain on purpose![/quote]
Once you've mastered that, try breaking a normal bar of 4 down into irregular sections. My drummer uses this trick all the time and it makes my head melt.


[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='947378' date='Sep 6 2010, 04:39 PM']Another one to play along to is Future Breed Machine by Meshuggah.[/quote]
:wub:

[brick]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='947378' date='Sep 6 2010, 04:39 PM']Another one to play along to is Future Breed Machine by Meshuggah.[/quote]

just out of curiosity how do people count most of the Meshuggah stuff, ive always thought of it as 4/4 with some really unusual subdivisions as the drummer seems to keep a 4/4 pulse going throughout, if I remember rightly when future breed machine was transcribed in bass player a couple of years back it was done like that

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='brick' post='949403' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:29 PM']just out of curiosity how do people count most of the Meshuggah stuff, ive always thought of it as 4/4 with some really unusual subdivisions as the drummer seems to keep a 4/4 pulse going throughout, if I remember rightly when future breed machine was transcribed in bass player a couple of years back it was done like that[/quote]
That's right. From [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshuggah#Musical_style"]Wikipedia[/url]:
[quote]Hagström notes about the polyrhythms, "We’ve never really been into the odd time signatures we get accused of using. Everything we do is based around a 4/4 core. It’s just that we arrange parts differently around that center to make it seem like something else is going on."[/quote]

[Truckstop]

Oddly enough, i've never had problems 'getting' odd time signatures. I just used to soak it up. I'd just remember where the riff ended, and then play it again. Trying to think about accents and tapping really puts me off. I always thought that techniques like that just made it a bit more complicated than it should be.

Truckstop

[scalpy]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='947365' date='Sep 6 2010, 04:28 PM']I was only ever in a Section 4 band, with correspondingly fairly easy test pieces, but I loved hearing the absolute brain-f***ers the Championship Section guys had to play in the big contests. Hats off to you.

(Just as a slight derailment... what instrument?)[/quote]

Cornet. I was blagging my way the whole time whilst studying Music at Uni. The test pieces were great, but the one that I never mastered was Riverdance. Die, Flatley die.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='scalpy' post='949418' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:42 PM']Cornet. I was blagging my way the whole time whilst studying Music at Uni.[/quote]
Hehe. Bet you never did the "Section 4 Semiquaver Waggle". Players so bad at reading that they reach a group of semiquavers and fly into a blind panic... valves waggled as fast as possible until the semiquavers are finished... sonic result of 20 people doing it simultaneously: [b]flblbbflabfblbfbflbl[/b]. Awful.

They'd even do it in really slow pieces too, like crotchet=50 sort of tempo.

[skej21]

+ 1 for the Louis Bellson "Odd Time Signature" book mentioned above.

It teaches you the most important thing about odd time playing/reading... sub-divisions. Really useful because it basically means you never really count past 4.

(For example, in 11/8, you just count it as any combination of smaller numbers depending on where you want the accents, i.e. 4 + 4 + 3 OR
as is the case in the primus video, 3 + 3 + 3 + 2. I used this as an example so that you can try it alongside the video below [in the main riff])

Edited September 8, 2010 by skej21

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='945744' date='Sep 4 2010, 10:43 PM']Can anyone recommend any helpful ways to improve on playing in odd time signatures and poly rhythms?
I know this is a general question but I'm just looking to improve my sense of timing when things aren't played to a straight 4/4 3/4 beat.[/quote]


Hi Sub

To learn freedom with odd time signatures, you first have to learn 4/4 time. Many think they understand 4/4, but haven’t really developed the flexibility and freedom that they need to be solid.

Here’s a simple drill (without your bass to start):
- Tap out a simple 16th note drum paradiddle with your two hands (no metronome…yet)
- Next, count 1, 2, 3, 4 out loud as you play the 16ths (don’t count the subdivisions and don’t tap your foot)
- If you don’t know the paradiddle pattern it is: RLRR,LRLL,RLRR, LRLL (one bar of 4/4)
- Just repeat until you get it down solid.
- Next start to add the metronome (note: before adding the metronome, you have to have the pattern down along with the coordination of counting the downbeats).

When you get that down, come back and post and I’ll explain how to take it to the bass and beyond.

Peace

Joe

[Sub_Drop]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='949678' date='Sep 8 2010, 05:52 PM']Hi Sub

To learn freedom with odd time signatures, you first have to learn 4/4 time. Many think they understand 4/4, but haven’t really developed the flexibility and freedom that they need to be solid.

Here’s a simple drill (without your bass to start):
- Tap out a simple 16th note drum paradiddle with your two hands (no metronome…yet)
- Next, count 1, 2, 3, 4 out loud as you play the 16ths (don’t count the subdivisions and don’t tap your foot)
- If you don’t know the paradiddle pattern it is: RLRR,LRLL,RLRR, LRLL (one bar of 4/4)
- Just repeat until you get it down solid.
- Next start to add the metronome (note: before adding the metronome, you have to have the pattern down along with the coordination of counting the downbeats).

When you get that down, come back and post and I’ll explain how to take it to the bass and beyond.

Peace

Joe[/quote]



Thanks for all the advice people,
thanks for the drill Joe, never tried that stuff without a bass to be honest,
but I can do that and other note patterns where it isn't even 16th notes and such to a beat with just my hands.
so what is the next step to get my timing and odd time patterns better?
Thanks in advice anyway Joe.

By the way, the name's Ste, since my user name doesn't give that away.

[johnnylager]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/pokemusic"]http://www.youtube.com/pokemusic[/url]

Edited September 8, 2010 by johnnylager

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='949729' date='Sep 8 2010, 06:35 PM']Thanks for all the advice people,
thanks for the drill Joe, never tried that stuff without a bass to be honest,
but I can do that and other note patterns where it isn't even 16th notes and such to a beat with just my hands.
so what is the next step to get my timing and odd time patterns better?
Thanks in advice anyway Joe.

By the way, the name's Ste, since my user name doesn't give that away.[/quote]


Okay, once you are comfortable tapping the 16th note paradiddle patterns while counting the downbeats out loud (remember not to tap your foot), you are now ready for the next exercise. But before we introduce the bass into the matrix, you have to nail another tapping exercise.

This time you will tap the same paradiddle pattern, except instead of playing them in 16th note you will play them in 8th note triplets.


Notice how this creates a polyrhythmic feel. You should be able to go between the straight 16ths and triplets at will.

All the same rules apply when counting- first start off with no metronome and then slowly introduce the metronome while gradually increasing the tempo. One note: these tapping drills are all about developing an understanding and interpretation of feel. Some people rush through these and don’t count out loud or are tapping their feet while playing through them. If this is the case, you are wasting your time. This is a “skill developing drill.” No one will ask you whether you can tap out paradiddles on a gig, but the results of understanding these rhythmic concepts will turbo charge your playing with the right progression, so hang with me.

Peace

Joe

Edited September 9, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Sub_Drop]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='950429' date='Sep 9 2010, 11:40 AM']Okay, once you are comfortable tapping the 16th note paradiddle patterns while counting the downbeats out loud (remember not to tap your foot), you are now ready for the next exercise. But before we introduce the bass into the matrix, you have to nail another tapping exercise.

This time you will tap the same paradiddle pattern, except instead of playing them in 16th note you will play them in 8th note triplets.


Notice how this creates a polyrhythmic feel. You should be able to go between the straight 16ths and triplets at will.

All the same rules apply when counting- first start off with no metronome and then slowly introduce the metronome while gradually increasing the tempo. One note: these tapping drills are all about developing an understanding and interpretation of feel. Some people rush through these and don’t count out loud or are tapping their feet while playing through them. If this is the case, you are wasting your time. This is a “skill developing drill.” No one will ask you whether you can tap out paradiddles on a gig, but the results of understanding these rhythmic concepts will turbo charge your playing with the right progression, so hang with me.

Peace

Joe[/quote]



Awesome, okay thanks for the next step, shall get right on it.
Thanks for the help.