Odd time signatures and odd timing

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[quote name='johnnylager' post='949739' date='Sep 8 2010, 06:46 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/pokemusic"]http://www.youtube.com/pokemusic[/url][/quote]

Is the song 'Innominate Nightmare' in 7/8 and 6/8 or would you say it was a massive bar of 13/8?

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='950429' date='Sep 9 2010, 11:40 AM']This time you will tap the same paradiddle pattern, except instead of playing them in 16th note you will play them in 8th note triplets.[/quote]

So where do the counts go in relation to the taps? Sorry, my knowledge of timing is notoriously flaky.

[umph]

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='945744' date='Sep 4 2010, 10:43 PM']Can anyone recommend any helpful ways to improve on playing in odd time signatures and poly rhythms?
I know this is a general question but I'm just looking to improve my sense of timing when things aren't played to a straight 4/4 3/4 beat.[/quote]

Best way i can recomend getting into it is to do it. It's what i did with my band, We find it alot easier to bust out a groove in 5 or 7/4

[endorka]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='949414' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:39 PM']Oddly enough, i've never had problems 'getting' odd time signatures. I just used to soak it up. I'd just remember where the riff ended, and then play it again. Trying to think about accents and tapping really puts me off. I always thought that techniques like that just made it a bit more complicated than it should be.[/quote]

I agree that what you are saying works well when learning these lines by ear, in which case you are getting some of the immersion "for free", as it were. I guess dancers do a similar thing when dancing to Money, Take 5, etc.

Subdivisions and accents are incredibly useful when you haven't heard the piece, and are having to read the part without any real idea of how it should be sound in advance. Some of the best orchestras in the country use this approach; the conductor will go through the piece telling the musicians where to pencil in the aforementioned triangles and slashes that denote the subdivisions.

In this case it is also useful that all the musicians will be feeling the subdivisions in the same way; left to their own devices, they may well arrive at different interpretations.

Jennifer

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='950537' date='Sep 9 2010, 12:59 PM']So where do the counts go in relation to the taps? Sorry, my knowledge of timing is notoriously flaky.[/quote]


Hi Gareth

Are you able to tap and count the beats with the paradiddle pattern at 16th notes?

Peace

Joe

Edited September 9, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='950754' date='Sep 9 2010, 03:56 PM']Hi Gareth

Are you able to tap and count the beats with the paradiddle pattern at 16th notes?

Peace

Joe[/quote]

Yeah, counting at each hit. Or should i be counting once per 4 hits?

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='951355' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:39 AM']Yeah, counting at each hit. Or should i be counting once per 4 hits?[/quote]


No, you should be counting once for every four note grouping.

With the triplets, you should be counting once for every three note grouping, but you are tapping the same pattern.

Hang in there!

Peace

Joe

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='951749' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:53 PM']No, you should be counting once for every four note grouping.

With the triplets, you should be counting once for every three note grouping, but you are tapping the same pattern.

Hang in there!

Peace

Joe[/quote]

Aargh, it's suprisingly difficult, even on the 16th notes!

It feels like it's doing my rythm skills some good so I'll keep at it.

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[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='950429' date='Sep 9 2010, 11:40 AM']Okay, once you are comfortable tapping the 16th note paradiddle patterns while counting the downbeats out loud (remember not to tap your foot), you are now ready for the next exercise. But before we introduce the bass into the matrix, you have to nail another tapping exercise.

This time you will tap the same paradiddle pattern, except instead of playing them in 16th note you will play them in 8th note triplets.


Notice how this creates a polyrhythmic feel. You should be able to go between the straight 16ths and triplets at will.

All the same rules apply when counting- first start off with no metronome and then slowly introduce the metronome while gradually increasing the tempo. One note: these tapping drills are all about developing an understanding and interpretation of feel. Some people rush through these and don’t count out loud or are tapping their feet while playing through them. If this is the case, you are wasting your time. This is a “skill developing drill.” No one will ask you whether you can tap out paradiddles on a gig, but the results of understanding these rhythmic concepts will turbo charge your playing with the right progression, so hang with me.

Peace

Joe[/quote]



Hey Joe, sorry for the massive delay.
I've only just managed to get the straight 16ths and triplets alternating, never thought they would be so difficult one after another.

What's the next stage mate?

peace

Steven

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

Okay, good job Steven. Let's start to add the bass. The first drill is goin to be playing ascending diatonic thirds, but the rhythm is going to be played in triplets. Because you are playing 2-note groupings (diatonic thirds) in triplets, in creates a cross rhythmic feel. Any scale will do, but it's probably good for most to start with major. Make sure to play this both up and back down the fretboard, but make sure to keep the thirds ascending in both directions. You must also - this is imperative - count out loud (count: 1, 2, 3, 4) while you are playing this, but do not tap you foot. First practice throroughly WITHOUT a metronome to develop the coordination needed. Add the metronome and build tempo gradually. Remember- the counting while playing is important as these are "isolation drills" whose only purpose is developing creative rhythmic feel. This is an attribute developing drill, NOT a drill in playing diatonic thirds!

[u]Further Instructions:[/u]
This drill should be played in all 5-positions on the fretboard and for the purpose of fretboard awareness, it should be done in all keys.

Good luck and hope this starts to help you to develop a strong rhythmic feel.

Peace

Joe

Edited September 15, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Bilbo]

One of the issues to think about where odd time signatures are concerned is that of bar lines.

If you take a tune like Apocolypse in 9/8 by Genesis, it is performed as a mathematical exercsie as follows:

one two three FOUR one two THREE one TWO and repeat.

I thought it was so clever and hard when I was 14. Now it sounds pretty remedial! Dave Brubecks Take Five is done in a simialr way: ONE two three ONE two - and the tune is built around that endlessly repeating riff (for the record, the reason the track is essentially a drum solo is because the other band members of the Brubeck Quartet couldn't blow in 5:4).

Its a same with a lot of King Crimson or generic prog rock stuff: the odd time signature refers to a one bar pattern/phrase that is repeated ad infinitum. To take it to the next level, you have to start thinking about crossing bar lines, whether as a soloist or accompanist. The trick is to try and avoid those little boxes that the riff creates for you and to develop ideas that are more organic. Its hard but worth pursuing.

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Has been ages, sine I've posted on this.

But thanks alot for all the songs, ideas and exercises.

I'm slowly getting better at it.

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

Hi Steven

Glad to hear you are getting on well with the exercises. I've just put up a "Free Bass Guitar Transcription Download" at:

[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/[/url]

The latest one is an excerpt track by The Screaming Headless Torsos that has a groove that goes between 5/4 and 9/4.

Hope you like it.

Peace

Joe