Improvisation on Bass - Completely Pointless

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='950529' date='Sep 9 2010, 12:52 PM']I play in an originals band, on stage I don't improvise. The notes I play are chosen specifically because they work, they are appropriate for the song and the musical context of the part of the song that they are a component of. They are the [i]right[/i] notes.

I write my band's music - when I compose a bass part, I know exactly what I'm doing, what I'm aiming to create and why. To spontaneously change basslines live would be pointless and would likely clash with what the other musicians are doing. Obviously compositions can evolve through rehearsal & performance, & if for example it occurs to me that playing something differently might enhance a song, I'll develop the idea on my own & then try it at practice to see if it actually works in context.

As a composer I feel it's faintly insulting to suggest that performing a song as it was written is somehow musically stunted and illiterate.

Jon.[/quote]
Jon, that's exactly what I've been trying to say all along.

For instance, Steve K raised a good point about how many classic performances in the '70s were all about improvising live and made for some magical performances. But you only get to hear the good stuff. What about all the sh*t that was played we never hear, and the audiences not getting value for their money.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='950541' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:04 PM']What happens if you write a drum part that's really unnatural for a musician, for example, a drummer?

I've played bass parts written by other musicians before, and although harmonically/melodically they may have written specific parts to affect the music, their sense of positioning on the instrument often makes parts very difficult to play, because they lack a practical knowledge of that instrument.

I think then, you (as the experienced musician for that part) are entitled to "improvise" and change the notes to make it playable and keep the composer's implied harmonic and meldoic ideas.

Also, I know a lot of drummer's who complain about drum notation that is written by other musicians who don't understand the drum kit and tend to just change it to keep the feel but make it less unnatural.[/quote]
You work out what's natural in REHEARSAL, not live on stage.

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='950547' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:07 PM']You work out what's natural in REHEARSAL, not live on stage.[/quote]

That's all well and good if you're a band who rehearse every week or whatever.

If you're a sessionist and you only have 2 rehearsals before the show, it's a bloody nightmare and you need to be able to sort it quickly.

Edited September 9, 2010 by skej21

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='950553' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:10 PM']That's all well and good if you're a band who rehearse every week or whatever.

If you're a sessionist and you only have 2 rehearsals before the show, it's a bloody nightmare and you need to be able to sort it quickly.[/quote]
Really? What sort of music? Is it complicated? Are you a sessionista who doesn't sight read?

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='950562' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:17 PM']Really? What sort of music? Is it complicated? Are you a sessionista who doesn't sight read?[/quote]

I do read, but when you get sat infront of a piece of music that is written in treble clef, above the maximum range of the standard bass guitar because the "composer" thought that is how bass is notated past the 12th fret, you have to act pretty fast.

In this case, it was an emergency session which i was called to do the day before the gig (i imagine the other guy dropped out when he saw the bass part!) but luckily the MD just told me to follow the style directions and play along to the chords written above.

Needless to say, the ability to improvise stylistically came in VERY useful on that gig, and a few others like it.

All I'm saying is, it's not as black and white as IT'S COMPLETELY POINTLESS, or IT'S BLOODY BRILLIANT.

I imagine you already know this though, and are just winding people up for the fun of it

Edited September 9, 2010 by skej21

[Norris]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='949458' date='Sep 8 2010, 02:21 PM']I do think there's a distinction though between improvising (trying to do something different with I piece I know) and improvising (trying to do something that fits a piece I don't) - they're two different skills.[/quote]

A.K.A. 'twiddling' and 'winging it'

Over the last 25 years or so my band has made a feature of occasional improv. Ever tried playing a 12-bar as a bosa nova? Status Quo tracks as a bolero? Any completely inappropriate syncopation?

The important thing is to play most of the set tight. Then, it is much more obvious when you're [s]larking about[/s] improvising, and the audience has no trouble 'getting it'.

[SteveK]

The phrases, [i]Natural selection[/i] & [i]Survival of the fittest[/i] can be applied to the world of music.
The fact is, if a musician/band makes a decision to incorporate improvisation into their show, and they do it badly ie. the audience "don't get it", the audience are bored, the band are just w***ing off...then they will fail: dwindling audience numbers, no rebooking, end of band.
If however, the band do it well - punters tapping their feet, moving their bodies, standing ovations, increasing audience numbers, band rebooked time and time again - then the band will go on to bigger and better things.

[quote]But you only get to hear the good stuff. What about all the sh*t that was played we never hear, and the audiences not getting value for their money.[/quote]
Of course you get bands that do it badly, but as I say above: They will/did fail... That's why you never hear them.

[xilddx]

[quote name='skej21' post='950574' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:24 PM']I do read, but when you get sat infront of a piece of music that is written in treble clef, above the maximum range of the standard bass guitar because the "composer" thought that is how bass is notated past the 12th fret, you have to act pretty fast.

In this case, it was an emergency session which i was called to do the day before the gig (i imagine the other guy dropped out when he saw the bass part!) but luckily the MD just told me to follow the style directions and play along to the chords written above.

Needless to say, the ability to improvise stylistically came in VERY useful on that gig, and a few others like it.

All I'm saying is, it's not as black and white as IT'S COMPLETELY POINTLESS, or IT'S BLOODY BRILLIANT.

I imagine you already know this though, and are just winding people up for the fun of it [/quote]
Understood. But what you are doing there is the opposite of improvising, in a sense. You do not know the part, but you have a fair idea of it. And you are trying to get as close to it as possible based on what you know of it. Not really improvising, just playing along to the chords hoping you don't f*** it up.

And I am not winding people up for the fun of it. I have a serious point to make, although I phrased it to provoke some conversation, rather than [i]"Improvisation on a bass, is it a good fing or a bad fing? I don't want to upset anyone"[/i]. And get three replies. I am genuinely interested in what people think, sorry if you feel manipulated.

Edited September 9, 2010 by silddx

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='950596' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:40 PM']Understood. But what you are doing there is the opposite of improvising, in a sense. You do not know the part, but you have a fair idea of it. And you are trying to get as close to it as possible based on what you know of it. Not really improvising, just playing along to the chords hoping you don't f*** it up.

And I am not winding people up for the fun of it. I have a serious point to make, although I phrased it to provoke some conversation, rather than "Improvisation on a bass, is it a good fing or a bad fing? I don't want to upset anyone". And get three replies. I am genualinely interested in what people think, sorry if you feel manipulated.[/quote]

No problem mate.

I do think that improvisation is just recalling information you know, in order to fill musical space, whether that means doing it badly when it's not needed (i.e. fretw**king) or doing it tastefully/stylistically when you're really in a sh*t situation (like that gig!).

[Bilbo]

There is a difference between improvisation that is 'making it up as you go along' and improvisation that is the intelligent, responsive and dynamic interaction of equals in a musical setting. The concept of a piece of music as an artefact, a 'thing' that is perfect and its reproduction a ceremony is only one model of music making. Some musics; jazz is only one, are as much a [i]process[/i] as they are an outcome. The art is in the doing of the thing and not in the thing that is done.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='950617' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:58 PM']There is a difference between improvisation that is 'making it up as you go along' and improvisation that is the intelligent, responsive and dynamic interaction of equals in a musical setting. The concept of a piece of music as an artefact, a 'thing' that is perfect and its reproduction a ceremony is only one model of music making. Some musics; jazz is only one, are as much a [i]process[/i] as they are an outcome. [b]The art is in the doing of the thing and not in the thing that is done.[/b][/quote]
Is it important that the audience appreciates that art?

[skej21]

[quote name='silddx' post='950625' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:04 PM']Is it important that the audience appreciates that art?[/quote]

Well yes, but most of the audiences who would appreciate such art, go to relevant gigs.

For example, someone such as yourself who thinks it is pointless is more likely to go to gigs where it doesn't rear it's ugly head, whereas people who like that art will go to gigs where it is common place.

It's about putting elements into your music that people will pay to see, and at jazz gigs, people pay for and expect improvisation and solos.

At a punk gig, the opposite is probably true.

The musicians do what is right for music and hope that audiences are intelligent enough to find that music because it suits them.

Edited September 9, 2010 by skej21

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='950596' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:40 PM']Understood. But what you are doing there is the opposite of improvising, in a sense. You do not know the part, but you have a fair idea of it. And you are trying to get as close to it as possible based on what you know of it. Not really improvising, just playing along to the chords hoping you don't f*** it up.

And I am not winding people up for the fun of it. I have a serious point to make, although I phrased it to provoke some conversation, rather than [i]"Improvisation on a bass, is it a good fing or a bad fing? I don't want to upset anyone"[/i]. And get three replies. I am genuinely interested in what people think, sorry if you feel manipulated.[/quote]

I dont understand.

Are you really suggesting that improvisation is playing along to the chords and hoping you dont make a 'mistake' then?

I mean I have played in bands where every note has been strictly composed, and whilst its fine to be able to do that, it isnt very satisfying for me before I do feel that the need to express the 'moment' of that time of playing that track makes me rewrite on the fly.

Improv is after all composition whilst playing, not grasping at notes at random and hoping you dont make too many obvious mistakes.

Nothing impresses me less than a band playing their album at a gig note for note to be honest. They wrote it, they recorded it, so of course they can play it, what I want to experience is their interpretation of their music at that point of time, otherwise I'll save my money and listen to the CD rather than go to the gig....

Of course certain bands are in a real predicament when it comes to this, mainly those who rely on sequenced backing tracks, but even then in the moment in a song you can embellish or disembellish (?) your part to reflect that instnace of the performace of that song.

[Mog]

I suppose it really depends on the song. I wouldn't be able to think of anything to play off the cuff in a song like Limelight by Rush but tunes by Oasis or The Verve etc are begging for little moments of maddness IMO. Also if you are playing folk or trad tunes the "bassline" was probably originally played on a button accordian etc. Therefore some sort of improv is called for.

(The confessions of a convicted fretw***er BTW) :ph34r:

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='950625' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:04 PM']Is it important that the audience appreciates that art?[/quote]

How can you say or even suggest that the audience will appreciate the songs less if there is an element of improvisation in there.

Especially if you haven't tried it....

[Bassassin]

[quote name='skej21' post='950541' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:04 PM']What happens if you write a drum part that's really unnatural for a musician, for example, a drummer?

I've played bass parts written by other musicians before, and although harmonically/melodically they may have written specific parts to affect the music, their sense of positioning on the instrument often makes parts very difficult to play, because they lack a practical knowledge of that instrument.

I think then, you (as the experienced musician for that part) are entitled to "improvise" and change the notes to make it playable and keep the composer's implied harmonic and meldoic ideas.

Also, I know a lot of drummer's who complain about drum notation that is written by other musicians who don't understand the drum kit and tend to just change it to keep the feel but make it less unnatural.[/quote]
Creative input/interpretation from my bandmates is welcome (as long as it works!) and a very important part of the learning/rehearsing process, which is why I mentioned the way a piece can evolve. I play drums a little - enough to know whether a part is physically playable - and am completely happy for a proper drummer to embellish, refine or even change a part completely, as long as it remains consistent with the feel I was aiming to achieve. The same goes for guitar parts. However the place for this is the practice room, not in front of an audience.

Speaking of the practice room, plenty of improvisation happens there - we often play unstructured jams for (what seems like) hours - it can be inspirational, hilarious, brilliant, chaotic, disastrous - but to an audience I think it would be crushingly, painfully dull!

J.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Bassassin

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='950637' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:13 PM']How can you say or even suggest that the audience will appreciate the songs less if there is an element of improvisation in there.

Especially if you haven't tried it....[/quote]
I didn't say that. I was just asking if it was important to the band if the audience enjoys watching their "process".

I have tried it, it is fun.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='silddx' post='950625' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:04 PM']Is it important that the audience appreciates that art?[/quote]

It is important that the audience has a relationship with what is going on but what defines that relationship is a matter for them.

If an artist plays to the gallery by assuming that they know what the gallery is seeking because it is what has been sought before, you get Simon Cowell. The music we all play, whether we like it or not, is subject to market forces. Its audience is self defining and the presence or absence of improvisation in bass parts is a miniscule part of that. Some people like background music to eat to, others want to dance. They will have different expectations and will react according to those expectations and not to the content of the performance.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='950668' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:40 PM']It is important that the audience has a relationship with what is going on but what defines that relationship is a matter for them.

If an artist plays to the gallery by assuming that they know what the gallery is seeking because it is what has been sought before, you get Simon Cowell. The music we all play, whether we like it or not, is subject to market forces. Its audience is self defining and the presence or absence of improvisation in bass parts is a miniscule part of that. Some people like background music to eat to, others want to dance. They will have different expectations and will react according to those expectations and not to the content of the performance.[/quote]
Wonderfully put, thank you.

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='950659' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:30 PM']I didn't say that. I was just asking if it was important to the band if the audience enjoys watching their "process".

I have tried it, it is fun.[/quote]

It is important that the audience are entertained - providing that is a goal of the artists I guess. I've seen several artists for whom audience enjoyment and entertainment was not a requirement, improvisation had no bearing on the situation mind. Didnt necessarily make them a bad artist, in some cases it allowed tem to produce iconic works of massive importance to a very few people.

Do the audience need to appreciate the fact that some part of what they are experiencing is improvised - no.

Will the band necessarily play as well if the are not allowed to deviate from the composition at all - depends on the musicians.

Does not allowing the band any room for deviation make moments of absolute genius less likely to happen - IMO yes.

Does not allowing the band any room for deviation make moments of absolute disaster more likely to happen - IMO yes.

Is improv a bad thing live - IMO no! In your opinion YES!

I rather like the 'spice' of watching music performed in the moment, I feel that cannot be as true when every note, every nuance, every aspect is predetermined.

If any aspect of the performance is not predetermined then that is improvised. However small that is it coul dgo wrong, it could end in disaster OH NO, how can we have unsafe potentially disastrous music performances, think of the children, surely we need to get HEalth and Safety ion on this at once!!!!

Question for you Nige, you often say how you like to get down and boogie whilst playing, are those dance moves all predetermined, are they choreographed? If not then maybe you should look at tieing that aspect of your performance down next?

Cant say I'd ever need to see your band more than once though, and I cant see why anyone else would really either....

[kevbass]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of improv on the bass if used appropriately. I quite enjoy the jam sessions at chilli peppers gigs and I've seen one or two jam bands in a live setting that were also good. In the right context I think improv can be quite inspiring, going nuts in the middle of a song however is a different story. I wonder how many of the famous bass riffs people know and love are the result of improv? As I say I like it in the appropriate context but I wouldn't stifle my bass playing by being opposed to it.

Edited September 9, 2010 by kevbass

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='silddx' post='950382' date='Sep 9 2010, 10:55 AM']Thanks Ched.[/quote]
I think the irony in my post has has been missed!

[xilddx]

[quote name='51m0n' post='950674' date='Sep 9 2010, 02:45 PM']It is important that the audience are entertained - providing that is a goal of the artists I guess. I've seen several artists for whom audience enjoyment and entertainment was not a requirement, improvisation had no bearing on the situation mind. Didnt necessarily make them a bad artist, in some cases it allowed tem to produce iconic works of massive importance to a very few people.

Do the audience need to appreciate the fact that some part of what they are experiencing is improvised - no.

Will the band necessarily play as well if the are not allowed to deviate from the composition at all - depends on the musicians.

Does not allowing the band any room for deviation make moments of absolute genius less likely to happen - IMO yes.

Does not allowing the band any room for deviation make moments of absolute disaster more likely to happen - IMO yes.

Is improv a bad thing live - IMO no! In your opinion YES!

I rather like the 'spice' of watching music performed in the moment, I feel that cannot be as true when every note, every nuance, every aspect is predetermined.

If any aspect of the performance is not predetermined then that is improvised. However small that is it coul dgo wrong, it could end in disaster OH NO, how can we have unsafe potentially disastrous music performances, think of the children, surely we need to get HEalth and Safety ion on this at once!!!!

Question for you Nige, you often say how you like to get down and boogie whilst playing, are those dance moves all predetermined, are they choreographed? If not then maybe you should look at tieing that aspect of your performance down next?

[b]Cant say I'd ever need to see your band more than once though, and I cant see why anyone else would really either....[/b][/quote]

Thanks mate!

All live performances are multi-dimensional, even if the notes are the same each time. There are loads of great bands who don't improvise live, Rush are one. There are minor differences each night but other than that it's the same show. Yet fans see them time after time on the same tour. It's about whether you like the band and their music and the "show". Same with classical concerts.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='skej21' post='950574' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:24 PM']I do read, but when you get sat infront of a piece of music that is written in treble clef, above the maximum range of the standard bass guitar because the "composer" thought that is how bass is notated past the 12th fret, you have to act pretty fast.

In this case, it was an emergency session which i was called to do the day before the gig (i imagine the other guy dropped out when he saw the bass part!) but luckily the MD just told me to follow the style directions and play along to the chords written above.

Needless to say, the ability to improvise stylistically came in VERY useful on that gig, and a few others like it.

All I'm saying is, it's not as black and white as IT'S COMPLETELY POINTLESS, or IT'S BLOODY BRILLIANT.

I imagine you already know this though, and are just winding people up for the fun of it [/quote]
Couldn't agree more! The amount of session gigs were i've been given friggin PVG or piano parts or parts written in treble clef is unreal. This is for proper gigs aswell playing theatres like manchester opera house and venues of the like. You do have to adjust. Luckily for me i'm arrogant and single minded and do what i want including the dreaded improvisation, but use my skills and experience to fuse it so it fits. (apart from on one occasion where i kept slipping the welcome to the jungle riff into a song).

[Pete Academy]

It's all about the song.