xilddx Posted September 8, 2010 Author Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='jakesbass' post='949224' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:40 AM']Sounds a little to me Nig that the only justification you seek is for your own state of understanding. I might also venture that your observations sound more like an argument raging in your head that any convicted position (I could be wrong) despite some quite convicted statements in your posts various. My take on it is that music deftly and beautifully escapes the conditions you're trying to constrain it with, and I would cite the following as evidence. Early classical music was happily defined and along came Bach an arch improvisor, the world of Pop bass (having evolved from one of THE most improvised art forms history had known, Jazz) was plodding along in simple enough form and along came Jamerson... These are just 2 examples in the world of music that defy condition. Further, in every case and example between and there are millions, reside proponents great and small, (sticking to bass now) from a Jaco Pastorius, through a Marcus Miller, an Entwhistle ..................etc............... down to yo and I, All just trying to make the best music we know how. Sometimes that requires a bit of solid 'what I have always played' and sometimes 'a little flare'. What it doesn't (in my experience at least) generally require is a set of strict conditions to make it work (even though they CAN work) which makes for a tough definition... if you see what I mean..... or... Shut up [/quote] Bugger, I was hoping you would stay out of this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urb Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='jakesbass' post='949224' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:40 AM']Sounds a little to me Nig that the only justification you seek is for your own state of understanding. I might also venture that your observations sound more like an argument raging in your head that any convicted position (I could be wrong) despite some quite convicted statements in your posts various. My take on it is that music deftly and beautifully escapes the conditions you're trying to constrain it with, and I would cite the following as evidence. Early classical music was happily defined and along came Bach an arch improvisor, the world of Pop bass (having evolved from one of THE most improvised art forms history had known, Jazz) was plodding along in simple enough form and along came Jamerson... These are just 2 examples in the world of music that defy condition. Further, in every case and example between and there are millions, reside proponents great and small, (sticking to bass now) from a Jaco Pastorius, through a Marcus Miller, an Entwhistle ..................etc............... down to yo and I, All just trying to make the best music we know how. Sometimes that requires a bit of solid 'what I have always played' and sometimes 'a little flare'. What it doesn't (in my experience at least) generally require is a set of strict conditions to make it work (even though they CAN work) which makes for a tough definition... if you see what I mean..... or... Shut up [/quote] Precisely. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='jakesbass' post='949224' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:40 AM']Sounds a little to me Nig that ..........[/quote] [quote name='silddx' post='949231' date='Sep 8 2010, 10:47 AM']Bugger, I was hoping you would stay out of this one [/quote] Jake's word is the LAW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) [quote name='silddx' post='948890' date='Sep 7 2010, 10:05 PM']So if you play in a "popular music" type band, when is a good time to improvise on stage? And what is the reason for your improvisation?[/quote] * When the drummer starts on 3 and a half * When there's a bit missing from the tab you copied off wowtabsbyidiots.com * When it hurts your hand too much to play the right notes. Bollocks to that malarkey. * When you're five pints down and halfway through a song, thinking "I hate the guitarist. Chips? Kebab? Pizza? Ooh, look at those hooters." Edited September 8, 2010 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShergoldSnickers Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='949330' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:18 PM']Ooh, look at those hooters."[/quote] Just had a terrible flashback to a traumatic incident as a child at a vintage car rally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocco Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 I am also not a fan of bass players who whibble around the fret board. Keep it simple. If it ain't broke don't fix it. An old lecturer of mine had a theory that an audience member will hear the bass line they want to hear no matter what it is you play so you might aswell stick to root notes. But then again he wore a tweed jacket with elbow patches and ridiculous dahli inspired waist coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironside1966 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) I can see where you are coming from. Most of the bands I have played with where very tight and slick with little room for maneuver, and I like bands like that. Some genres of music like jazz, rock and blues improvising is part of the makeup. IMHO in song dependent music there should be a musical reason for improv, if it is done to impress the musicians in the audience then its back to the old is he a musician or a bass player. Edited September 8, 2010 by ironside1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linus27 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) I think the mistake being made here is that we are actually thinking people listen to us. My mum says she listens to me but I its not me she is listening to Come on everyone, don't forget we are bass players. Nobody listens to us or cares about us. We are the destined to be the other one Lets all get back to where we belong before the universe explodes At the back, looking bored or boring, upappreciated and not very important to anything or anyone. See, that makes everything so much better Edited September 8, 2010 by Linus27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='Linus27' post='949362' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:52 PM']I think the mistake being made here is that we are actually thinking people listen to us. Come on everyone, don't forget we are bass players. Nobody listens to us or cares about us. Lets all get back to where we belong. At the back, looking bored or boring, upappreciated and not very important to anything or anyone. See, that makes everything so much better [/quote] You're right of course. But, I'm awaiting the thoughts of Tony Goggle on this subject before I make my mind up on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 8, 2010 Author Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='ironside1966' post='949356' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:44 PM']I can see where you are coming from. Most of the bands I have played with where very tight and slick with little room for maneuver, and I like bands like that. Some genres of music like jazz, rock and blues improvising is part of the makeup. IMHO in song dependent music there should be a musical reason for improv, if it is done to impress the musicians on the audience then its back to the old is he a musician or a bass player.[/quote] You see clearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='cocco' post='949348' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:34 PM']I am also not a fan of bass players who whibble around the fret board. Keep it simple. If it ain't broke don't fix it. An old lecturer of mine had a theory that an audience member will hear the bass line they want to hear no matter what it is you play so you might aswell stick to root notes. But then again he wore a tweed jacket with elbow patches and ridiculous dahli inspired waist coats.[/quote] I take it your old lecturer knew not much about bass or music? I agree that most of the audience wont be able to identify the bassline, but I think they'd know something was wrong if you just played root notes for "Hit me with your rhythm stick" or anything else that was bassline driven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubinga5 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='silddx' post='949156' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:37 AM']Improved according to whom?[/quote] Sorry wrong spelling..i meant 'Improv' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 8, 2010 Author Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='bubinga5' post='949398' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:25 PM']Sorry wrong spelling..i meant 'Improv'[/quote] Sorry mate, yes that was pointed out to me you may have meant that. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckstop Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 The only improv I ever used in my old band was mixing up the places where I'd do a monster slide into a riff. I love slide ins. Truckstop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocco Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='xgsjx' post='949391' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:18 PM']I take it your old lecturer knew not much about bass or music? I agree that most of the audience wont be able to identify the bassline, but I think they'd know something was wrong if you just played root notes for "Hit me with your rhythm stick" or anything else that was bassline driven.[/quote] He was quite a successful double bass and bass sax player. I think he may have done one too many acid tabs while listening to Gong in '76. Odd fella Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='silddx' post='949140' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:24 AM']And that is why blues evolved into jazz. There aren't many musicians around with a "large enough vocabulary on the instrument" who are content to continue playing 12 bar.[/quote] There are tons of great players who regularly play 12 bars-it's the bread and butter. But improvising underneath a soloist does not mean it moves into a jazz direction. A good player will still keep the feel of the tune while still being able to react to the music that is going on around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamd Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='Doddy' post='949420' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:44 PM']There are tons of great players who regularly play 12 bars-it's the bread and butter. But improvising underneath a soloist does not mean it moves into a jazz direction. A good player will still keep the feel of the tune while still being able to react to the music that is going on around them.[/quote] +1. Improvisation can also be subtle, within the parameters of keeping a song nailed, and tasteful. It takes both understanding and restraint, but the audience will feel it, whether they know what it is or not. It's not automatically Jazz Odyssey just because it isn't set in stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) Until my line is committed to muscle memory or I'm completely au fait with the structure and key/changes involved in a song I tend to find myself "improvising" quite a lot! I do think there's a distinction though between improvising (trying to do something different with I piece I know) and improvising (trying to do something that fits a piece I don't) - they're two different skills. Edited September 8, 2010 by bigjohn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Nigel, mate, thats a load of old bunk. I have lost count of the number of funk gigs I've done where the groove was 'explored' from start to finish, occasionally brilliantly, by everyone in the band, from the beginning to the end of the song, much to the delight of a packed audience getting very sweaty to it too. Yes there was an absolutely defined structure, but from the dynamics at a macro level to the rhythmic diversity at a micro level, every instrument was jamming to some extent, including the vocals. Improv is not jazz, jazz is not improv, do not confuse the two. You can perfectly well improvise with a single note, just try it, one note, no octaves, and a drummer, simple groove, doesnt need to be complex, just embellish about, mix it up. Does that mean this is something we should not play on a stage in front of an audience unless we are in a 'jazz' setting. I hope not! Music is a conversation, between not just all the musicians, but crucially between the musicians and the audience as well. If you always try and have the same conversation with your audience you will soon become boring.... Bass is the foundation of music, hence it is the foundation of that conversation, therefore it is most important that the foundation of the conversation is not boring. The song is (to my mind) the subject of that conversation. It better not be boring either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velvetkevorkian Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 As with everything in music- it depends. Am I overplaying/underplaying/using the wrong bass/would a fretless work/ can I play a G# there/do I play this the same every time or improvise...? It depends. Sweeping generalisations on [s]Bass[/s] music - Completely Pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 8, 2010 Author Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='51m0n' post='949494' date='Sep 8 2010, 03:00 PM']Nigel, mate, thats a load of old bunk.[/quote] +1 it's complete bollocks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='silddx' post='949500' date='Sep 8 2010, 03:11 PM']+1 it's complete bollocks![/quote] HAHAHA!! Love it mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xilddx Posted September 8, 2010 Author Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='51m0n' post='949508' date='Sep 8 2010, 03:20 PM']HAHAHA!! Love it mate [/quote] I must stop self harming on the internetz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 [quote name='silddx' post='949511' date='Sep 8 2010, 03:24 PM']I must stop self harming on the internetz [/quote] Never! I love these threads of yours! [b]Controversial statement ---> Vociferous discussion ---> Reconciliation ---> General love-in[/b] Time for stage 4, methinks. I love you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low End Bee Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 'S well known you get an improv immunity certificate with each new SVT......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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