Improvisation on Bass - Completely Pointless

[skej21]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' post='950805' date='Sep 9 2010, 04:43 PM']Couldn't agree more! The amount of session gigs were i've been given friggin PVG or piano parts or parts written in treble clef is unreal. This is for proper gigs aswell playing theatres like manchester opera house and venues of the like. You do have to adjust. Luckily for me i'm arrogant and single minded and do what i want including the dreaded improvisation, but use my skills and experience to fuse it so it fits. (apart from on one occasion where i kept slipping the welcome to the jungle riff into a song). [/quote]

Haha, yeah. It's well annoying. The gig in question (from me) was actually a full stage production of 'Dream Girls' that was being put on by a bunch of CLOWNS lol. The MD was a hero though and just let me do whatever.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's been stuck in such a rubbish situation. I was beginning to think I was jinxed!

[KevB]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='950617' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:58 PM']The art is in the doing of the thing and not in the thing that is done.[/quote]

Ahh, that'll explain Yoko standing in the middle of the room wailing tunelessly then...

[Truckstop]

Not sure if im entirely agreeing with Silddx on this one, i'm probably answering a different question altogether! If I write a song with my band, Im gonna play it like we wrote it. We spent hours on these songs, all the improv/jamming stages have long gone and we have a finished product. I simply couldnt deal with not knowing what I was going to play on the night.
I like looking professional.

Truckstop

[Pete Academy]

I read an article in BP magazine some time ago, where the player said that the groove you play has an hypnotic effect on the audience. I think this is true. To me, it's all about the groove, and the groove is what keeps the audience's attention. If you lose that, you're not doing your job. The song is the most important thing, regardless of what you play, and how much you improvise. The song is king. You have to make the singer and the song sound as good as possible.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Pete Academy

[risingson]

I don't like improvisation on bass that much at all, although I'll occasionally hear someone playing that will catch my ear.

[quote]I read an article in BP magazine some time ago, where the player said that the groove you play has an hypnotic effect on the audience. I think this is true. To me, it's all about the groove, and the groove is what keeps the audience's attention. If you lose that, you're not doing your job. The song is the most important thing, regardless of what you play, and how much you improvise. The song is king. You have to make the singer and the song sound as good as possible.[/quote]

I think a bass player should count himself pretty lucky if people come up to him/her at the end of the night and compliment them on the job they did, usually if you're a good player the only people that will have noticed what you've done will be the token musos in the crowd and the rest of your band. Bass players should be the ones in the band that literally support everyone else, like the bridge between rhythm and harmony, it's not something you notice if it goes right but one mistake and you know a mistake has been made.

[51m0n]

[quote name='silddx' post='950799' date='Sep 9 2010, 04:38 PM'] Thanks mate!

All live performances are multi-dimensional, even if the notes are the same each time. There are loads of great bands who don't improvise live, Rush are one. There are minor differences each night but other than that it's the same show. Yet fans see them time after time on the same tour. It's about whether you like the band and their music and the "show". Same with classical concerts.[/quote]

Pleasure dude, and you know I'm kidding about that - well a bit

Edited September 9, 2010 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

[quote name='risingson' post='950933' date='Sep 9 2010, 06:58 PM']I don't like improvisation on bass that much at all, although I'll occasionally hear someone playing that will catch my ear.



I think a bass player should count himself pretty lucky if people come up to him/her at the end of the night and compliment them on the job they did, usually if you're a good player the only people that will have noticed what you've done will be the token musos in the crowd and the rest of your band. Bass players should be the ones in the band that literally support everyone else, like the bridge between rhythm and harmony, it's not something you notice if it goes right but one mistake and you know a mistake has been made.[/quote]

I think that how noticeable the bass is/should be is actually entirely genre dependant.

If you are playing country, blue, rock (including a lot of metal), or most pop or easy listening type stuff then I agree the bass is almost purely supportive, and can be said to be at its best when it isnt really notices, if you play drum and bass, dub, funk, reggae then I'd say its much more of a forefront instrument. Improvising or not.

[bh2]

Don't we all improvise then?

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='950998' date='Sep 9 2010, 07:57 PM']I think that how noticeable the bass is/should be is actually entirely genre dependant.

If you are playing country, blue, rock (including a lot of metal), or most pop or easy listening type stuff then I agree the bass is almost purely supportive, and can be said to be at its best when it isnt really notices, if you play drum and bass, dub, funk, reggae then I'd say its much more of a forefront instrument. Improvising or not.[/quote]

Agreed although the genres you stated I would say are even more reliant on a supportive bassist, the only difference to my ears is that producers have a tendency to mix and master the bass up front due to the nature of the type of music, so I guess they're more prone to being picked out if they make a mistake. A massive amount of 'easy listening' you mentioned about for lack of a better term usually has some session player wailing on a fretless in the background. My point being 95% of music relies on a supportive bass line to propel everything else forward.

Improvisation on the instrument is fine but at at very specific moments and in very specific tunes. It's the horses for courses argument again but I'd much rather listen to Pino on a P-Bass with flatwounds thumping away in the background with Erykah Badu or John Mayer than hear any particular bass solo.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='950913' date='Sep 9 2010, 06:36 PM']I read an article in BP magazine some time ago, where the player said that the groove you play has an hypnotic effect on the audience. I think this is true. To me, it's all about the groove, and the groove is what keeps the audience's attention. If you lose that, you're not doing your job. The song is the most important thing, regardless of what you play, and how much you improvise. The song is king. You have to make the singer and the song sound as good as possible.[/quote]Well said Pete.
As a bass player, the groove is your High Priest.

[51m0n]

[quote name='risingson' post='951219' date='Sep 9 2010, 10:32 PM']Agreed although the genres you stated I would say are even more reliant on a supportive bassist, the only difference to my ears is that producers have a tendency to mix and master the bass up front due to the nature of the type of music, so I guess they're more prone to being picked out if they make a mistake. A massive amount of 'easy listening' you mentioned about for lack of a better term usually has some session player wailing on a fretless in the background. My point being 95% of music relies on a supportive bass line to propel everything else forward.

Improvisation on the instrument is fine but at at very specific moments and in very specific tunes. It's the horses for courses argument again but I'd much rather listen to Pino on a P-Bass with flatwounds thumping away in the background with Erykah Badu or John Mayer than hear any particular bass solo.[/quote]

Nah I disagree with you there, loads of funk live the bassists are definitely improvising, a lot, even in some rock (Living Colour's Muzz Skillings said he never played a line the same twice for instance).

The thing is improvisation is not all about fret w@nkery at all, and yet people hear the term improvise and assume it must be. Any time you express yourself whilst playing in a way that chanegs any part of the groove at all, you are in fact improvising.

I doubt there are more than a handful of people on this forum who really can play a song the same twice in a row, I mean record it twice, put the two versions up and really analyse it, there will be differences, if we are so good at playing in the groove and all that, they should at least timing wise be almost identical. They wont be, its not possible. If you could then getting to be like that would have removed all passion and soulfrom that piece of music, which would render it cr@p.

Supportive yes, repetition to the point of drudgery no.

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='951241' date='Sep 9 2010, 10:55 PM']Nah I disagree with you there, loads of funk live the bassists are definitely improvising, a lot, even in some rock (Living Colour's Muzz Skillings said he never played a line the same twice for instance).

The thing is improvisation is not all about fret w@nkery at all, and yet people hear the term improvise and assume it must be. Any time you express yourself whilst playing in a way that chanegs any part of the groove at all, you are in fact improvising.

I doubt there are more than a handful of people on this forum who really can play a song the same twice in a row, I mean record it twice, put the two versions up and really analyse it, there will be differences, if we are so good at playing in the groove and all that,they should at least timing wise be almost identical. They wont be, its not possible. If you could then getting to be like that would have removed all passion and soulfrom that piece of music, which would render it cr@p.

Supportive yes, repetition to the point of drudgery no.[/quote]

that's a different kind of improvisation, more altering something really and if that what the original post was about then yes, I'd struggle to find a bass player I enjoyed that didn't do that. As far as I was aware I thought the OP was referring to solo playing, which has it's time and place. I'm really not stupid enough to believe a good player never does the same thing twice unless it's a very specific bassline and even then it is subject to alteration, just never at the expense of the original tune.

Edited September 9, 2010 by risingson

[ZMech]

Naverending arguments on Basschat - Completely Pointless.

[beardybass]

[quote name='Zach' post='951373' date='Sep 10 2010, 01:35 AM']Naverending arguments on Basschat - Completely Pointless.[/quote]

Or... open and lively debates, the whole point of having a forum in the first place.

[xilddx]

[quote name='beardybass' post='951400' date='Sep 10 2010, 05:50 AM']Or... open and lively debates, the whole point of having a forum in the first place. [/quote]
Quite. That's why I keep coming back.

[Bilbo]

Absolutely. Consensus is the precursor for mediocrity. The debate is more important than its resolution...

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='951526' date='Sep 10 2010, 09:44 AM']Consensus is the precursor for mediocrity.[/quote]

<panto mode>
Oh no it isn't!
</panto mode>

[51m0n]

[quote name='risingson' post='951346' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:28 AM']that's a different kind of improvisation, more altering something really and if that what the original post was about then yes, I'd struggle to find a bass player I enjoyed that didn't do that. As far as I was aware I thought the OP was referring to solo playing, which has it's time and place. I'm really not stupid enough to believe a good player never does the same thing twice unless it's a very specific bassline and even then it is subject to alteration, just never at the expense of the original tune.[/quote]

I refer you back to the OP :-
[quote name='silddx' post='948783' date='Sep 7 2010, 08:50 PM'][b]Is there a point? Unless you play jazz I can't see one. The occasional inspired extra note here and there, sure, but studying improvisation on a bass!?![/b] It seems ridiculous. Learn to cook instead, it's much more useful and pleasing for other people.

It sounds like a recipe for cheating your audience to me. Only musicians will feel any "magic" happening, and that magic will be VERY rare. The audience won't get it anyway, and why not compose something beautiful in the first place.

For me, improvisation on a bass is for jazz and pompous tits who convince themselves it's entertaining. I wish they would realise NO-ONE GIVES A sh*t.

EDIT: I mean in a live setting.[/quote]

So in the original post it is clear that improvising is (for the sake of this discussion) anything beyond changing the odd note in a song. Doing this live is to cheat the audience.

When I play I like to be in a position live (with any of thebands I've been in) that for the majority of songs I may have up to 5 or 6 directions or 'gears' I can take any part of any song, where it will work. This is preparing to improvise live IMO. It takes a lot of time to get there, both in personal practice and to a certain extent in reheasals.Then live I can go in any of those directions, mix and match them as I feel, add in new cool bits as the moment takes me. All the preparation makes any new bits far more likely to successful. What I dont do is play the song according to a rigorously defined bassline at all, but I still minimise the chance of really cocking up.

Clearly if the song calls for a unison line then thats what will get played (although sometimes dropping out some or all of the bassline in a unison part can make the song better too), other than that I like the world to be my oyster.

Its particularly helpful in the blues band, where although the songs are covers the interpretation is very much as the singer feels it. The structure of the songs is different every time, the dynamics are different, the interplay between the players is what makes the whole thing enjoyable, playing the same stock blues pattern would bore me, playing the songs different every time (at least to some extent) makes it far more interesting. No it doesnt always work, but we've never ever had a complaint!

The upside of all this is that if anything does go wrong the band are all better at getting through it. Which is reason enough to work like that anyway.

I should point out that I have been in bands where every single note was composed for every single song on every single instrument. It was some pretty complex stuff. The audience appreciated it significantly less than the stuff I have played with more room to improvise. Probably because the material was more challenging to listen to than to play (and it was damned hard to play!), where as the other stuff has been far easier to listen to.

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='951640' date='Sep 10 2010, 11:17 AM']I refer you back to the OP :-


So in the original post it is clear that improvising is (for the sake of this discussion) anything beyond changing the odd note in a song. Doing this live is to cheat the audience.

When I play I like to be in a position live (with any of thebands I've been in) that for the majority of songs I may have up to 5 or 6 directions or 'gears' I can take any part of any song, where it will work. This is preparing to improvise live IMO. It takes a lot of time to get there, both in personal practice and to a certain extent in reheasals.Then live I can go in any of those directions, mix and match them as I feel, add in new cool bits as the moment takes me. All the preparation makes any new bits far more likely to successful. What I dont do is play the song according to a rigorously defined bassline at all, but I still minimise the chance of really cocking up.

Clearly if the song calls for a unison line then thats what will get played (although sometimes dropping out some or all of the bassline in a unison part can make the song better too), other than that I like the world to be my oyster.

Its particularly helpful in the blues band, where although the songs are covers the interpretation is very much as the singer feels it. The structure of the songs is different every time, the dynamics are different, the interplay between the players is what makes the whole thing enjoyable, playing the same stock blues pattern would bore me, playing the songs different every time (at least to some extent) makes it far more interesting. No it doesnt always work, but we've never ever had a complaint!

The upside of all this is that if anything does go wrong the band are all better at getting through it. Which is reason enough to work like that anyway.

I should point out that I have been in bands where every single note was composed for every single song on every single instrument. It was some pretty complex stuff. The audience appreciated it significantly less than the stuff I have played with more room to improvise. Probably because the material was more challenging to listen to than to play (and it was damned hard to play!), where as the other stuff has been far easier to listen to.[/quote]

Ahh to me it's just another one of those arguments, I do think the original question was too vague and too much is open to interpretation, so I probably jumped the gun a little. For what it's worth I actually agree with you on all points, the reason good players like session guys for example are hired to play someone else's music is always on their ability to add their subtleties to an existing bass line without overpowering the original record, and in that sense then yeh improvisation is integral to you being a good bass player.

As far as improvisation in a soloing sense... sure it has it's place, but it's just not my thing, and as a result I'm inclined to agree that I'd prefer not to hear it. Still though, there's no detracting from someone like Victor Wooten for example, his musicality and ability to throw licks at you at breakneck speed without boring the audience to tears. As far as I'm concerned it's all about his delivery of ideas that is impressive, not how fast he can play.

[quote]Naverending arguments on Basschat - Completely Pointless.[/quote]

Disagree... why are we all here? To have a natter about crochet patterns and how the price of butter has gone up? If everyone agreed with everyone then the world would be a pretty dull place to live in don't ya think!

[51m0n]

I think we agree completely...

Personally I dont think there is room in any song for cruft, and 7 minute long improvised or not solos on any instrument (unless on the bathtub, a most underrated musical intrument I am told) are likely to be cruft!

Stick to the point, and keep it interesting.

I love Nigel's more 'pointed' posts, they make you rethink what and why you do things. It would unfathomly boring around here if we all agreed!

[risingson]

[quote name='51m0n' post='951852' date='Sep 10 2010, 02:27 PM']I think we agree completely...

Personally I dont think there is room in any song for cruft, and 7 minute long improvised or not solos on any instrument (unless on the bathtub, a most underrated musical intrument I am told) are likely to be cruft!

Stick to the point, and keep it interesting.

I love Nigel's more 'pointed' posts, they make you rethink what and why you do things. It would unfathomly boring around here if we all agreed![/quote]

The premise of these arguments is why I enjoy this forum. Sure it's an argument that's been brought up before but who cares, it's interesting as musicians to talk about it! Not exactly going to have a spirited discussion with my Gran on the merits of improvisation on a bass guitar am I??

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='silddx' post='951512' date='Sep 10 2010, 09:32 AM']Quite. That's why I keep coming back.[/quote]
agreed!

[Marvin]

Do people have to write essays? Anything over 5 lines and I start to drift.

[bh2]

This whole thread is pretty pointless IMO. I'll bet EVERYONE here improvises, albeit consciously or unconsciously. Jeez. Don't take yourselves so serious.

[bassninja]

Many of the bass players I enjoy improvise outside of a jazz setting (Phil Lesh, Mike Gordon, etc), and none of the bands I play in have rigid parts (if you'll pardon the expression...)

I agree with the 'conversation' analogy. Its about emphasis, inference, tone, dynamics, reaction, tension and release. That's what makes it fun for me, anyway. I doesn't have to be about 'check out my flattened ninth' noodling or fretw*nking, if you have a good enough musical vocabulary.