OLP vs. MusicMan Stingray: correction.

[mcnach]

Well...

some of you may know my love of OLP MM2 (stingray clone) basses.
By themselves they're just ok, but with a good pickup and a decent preamp... they're fantastic. They are.

Recently I bought a MM Stingray, a 2002 2EQ model. beautiful. It didn't stop me loving my main OLP. I liked both. They're different. My OLP is more like a 3EQ, while the Stingray now has a JE preamp, so it has the character of the 2EQ, but I get the possibility of altering the mids if Iwant to. Different. Both great.

I have tried numerous Stingrays before, and they were ok. Brilliant even, some of them. But not enough to make me feel my OLP was not quite right.

I even joked my new Stingray would be the backup of my OLP!



Well.

Today...

Today things changed.



Today I used the Stingray at a proper rehearsal. At last. Been leaving it at home too long, what with changing preamp etc.
No home-friendly volume anymore. Same place where I've played my OLP a million times, same room, same amp, same everything.

And the Stingray felt BIGGER, powerful, really tight lows, punchy. Just like the OLP, in fact
No, just kidding... the OLP sounds great, but the Stingray sounded... clearly better. It just had a definition and body that I haven't obtained from my OLP before.
My bandmates agreed.
Interestingly, I didn't touch the mid control, so I was playing it purely as a 2EQ (although I do feel the John East preamp produced tighter lows than the original).

So it turns out that whilst at moderate volumes there isn't too much difference... once you turn up the volume, the Stingray comes ahead and wins the race easily.

I'm upset. :wacko:
I loved being able to prefer the cheaper version, purely on playability and sound alone. But it turns out I'm going to end up putting the Stingray on top just like all those snobs out there

I still love the OLPs... But the Stingray really is something else.

So there, I said it.

A MM Stingray is better after all than a souped up OLP.

(but OLPs are still great!!!)




EDIT: For Saturday's gig I will use the Stingray now. I suspect it's going to be my main bass from now on.

Edited September 8, 2010 by mcnach

[Ou7shined]

Hallelujah
Now can you go back and edit all your posts claiming OLP is better than MM please.

[Darkstrike]

Headstock snob!

"A MM Stingray is better after all than a souped up OLP."

In fairness though, the MM is souped up too!

[pandathe3]

But stingrays cost 1500 and OLPs cost just under 400 (including mods).

Have you checked out Kent Armstrong pups? They can make an OLP have that stingray sound. I once played a HH stingray, late 80's I think. The neck pup was a KA and it sounded....just unbelievable.

i do share your love of the OLP (pretty strange eh!) and John East can do some magical things!


How did the G-string go during practice? Much noticeable lack in balls?

[mcnach]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='949041' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:42 AM']Hallelujah
Now can you go back and edit all your posts claiming OLP is better than MM please. [/quote]


That would keep me busy for a while!!!

Although, in fairness... I didn't say OLPs were better... I said I preferred them. Slight difference
I still find my main OLP extremely easy to play. But then it's been really taken care of and I've been playing it constantly for a while, so maybe I'm just used to it.

I knew you'd be one of the first ones to jump into this thread!

[mcnach]

[quote name='Darkstrike' post='949045' date='Sep 8 2010, 02:36 AM']Headstock snob!

"A MM Stingray is better after all than a souped up OLP."

In fairness though, the MM is souped up too! [/quote]


Not much, really. If at all. The reason I put the JE preamp in is because although I loved the way the 2EQ worked, I missed having some extra control over the mids, but I preferred the way the treble/bass works on their 2EQs than on the 3EQs... and the JE is essentially JE's version of the 2EQ (which to my ears sounds just like the original, with *perhaps* tighter lows) plus a versatile mid-frequency control module. And last night I was playing it with the mids flat, pretty much all the time, just brought it into play a couple of times.
The JE preamp has a bypass switch installed, and I tried the bass passive. It was still considerably hefty. Definitely the bass itself is able to produce that chunky sound.

[mcnach]

[quote name='pandathe3' post='949050' date='Sep 8 2010, 04:05 AM']But stingrays cost 1500 and OLPs cost just under 400 (including mods).

Have you checked out Kent Armstrong pups? They can make an OLP have that stingray sound. I once played a HH stingray, late 80's I think. The neck pup was a KA and it sounded....just unbelievable.

i do share your love of the OLP (pretty strange eh!) and John East can do some magical things![/quote]


I bought my OLPs second hand (as you would have to do now, since they're not in production any longer), so try under £300, and closer to £250 in some cases.
Stingrays second hand... vary. I paid almost £700 for mine inc. MM hard case, which is not entirely a bargain considering their sh prices not long ago... but they seem to be going up in price... and I *really* wanted this particular individual bass... it looked great, just the pattern and configuration I wanted, like new condition... so I'm happy with the price.

Is the difference in cost worth it?

Some may say no. I lean towards the no camp. The Stingray performs better, now I've tested it under "working conditions" and it really does. So I prefer it. But the OLP is also really good, and I tell you I got compliments on its sound quite a few times...

From that point of view... the Stingray is a "luxury". But it is a better bass, no question.

Hey, I'm also very happy with my £40 Jazz bass copy... I'm not about headstock names!



[quote name='pandathe3' post='949050' date='Sep 8 2010, 04:05 AM']How did the G-string go during practice? Much noticeable lack in balls?[/quote]


Not sure how to respond to that one

I'll assume you're talking bass

I have not experienced a noticeable G-string issue with either the OLPs (stock and SD pickups), my Warwick Corvette $$ (their stock MEC pickups), or this 2002 MM Stingray. What can I say?
The polepieces are staggered, more than on the SD pickups... and I did notice a difference, small, when I got the bass (flat pickup). I merely played with the angle of the pickup until it sounded ok to me. If there's a difference it's not noticeable to me. I don't use heavy strings (D'Addario EXL170, nickel wound 45-100).
I use the G string a fair bit, and it sounds just fine to me. Maybe I'm less sensitive to small differences, maybe I adapt the way I play... it's possible, I like to alter how strong I hit strings for different parts of a bassline so it sounds the way I want it... so maybe I've just adapted to that, I don't know).
What I can say is that I don't perceive "a problem".

If you talk about the other G-string... I was wearing boxers last night, so it was all good.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='mcnach' post='949132' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:17 AM']That would keep me busy for a while!!!

Although, in fairness... I didn't say OLPs were better... I said I preferred them. Slight difference
I still find my main OLP extremely easy to play. But then it's been really taken care of and I've been playing it constantly for a while, so maybe I'm just used to it.

I knew you'd be one of the first ones to jump into this thread! [/quote]


That's just it any make of bass when properly set up and tweaked to the players preference has it's merits. Bung a 'ray pup, 'ray pre and a 'ray neck on a toilet seat and you'll get something that sounds like a 'ray but where the a Stingray excels over the likes of OLP (I'm not saying an OLP is toilet furniture per se ) is consistency, reliability and (for the connoisseur in you) built quality and of course "that" distinctive tone.

[Prime_BASS]

I'm sure you would get the same result when you compare a CVP squier with a US deluxe precision.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' post='949169' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:43 AM']I'm sure you would get the same result when you compare a CVP squier with a US deluxe precision.[/quote]


I'd probably hate the CVP more, yes.

I can't stand P-basses. I tried to like them... but nope. I don't get the P-bass sound. I can train myself to tolerate it and even enjoy it... but the minute I have a J or MM type bass around... I'd drop the P like a hot rock.

[stingrayPete1977]

Im not even going to comment on this thread!

[mcnach]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='949167' date='Sep 8 2010, 09:42 AM']where the a Stingray excels over the likes of OLP (I'm not saying an OLP is toilet furniture per se ) is consistency, reliability and (for the connoisseur in you) built quality and of course "that" distinctive tone.[/quote]

build quality was always very obviously superior on any Stingray I ever tried. I had no questions about that. They feel "solid". And their finish is exceptional.

As for *that* tone...
Since I had the JE preamp installed with a bypass switch, I can compare what it sounds like passively, to a couple of OLPs I have that are passive still. The Stingray wins without a doubt. A good preamp can cover up a lot, I suppose. Like make up.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='949421' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:45 PM']Im not even going to comment on this thread! [/quote]

You are truly a gentleman

[Rayman]

Glad you saw the light.

I spent a lot of time and money putting a Nordstrand 5.2 and a John East EQ into an OLP Tony Levin, but it just never was as good as my bog standard 2EQ Musicman Stingray, just not in the same league at all. Like you say, a great backup, but that really was all it could ever be, even with all the kit stuck in it. The quality of the timbers, screws, machining, everything just are not comparable. A musicman bass just feels like quality the minute you pick it up.

Since getting my fingers burnt financially on that one, I've never thrown serious money at a budget bass since, although I have "tarted up" a couple, but not on the same scale as that OLP. My Fleabass had an EMG put in it, new pots, socket etc, but not at the kind of cost I incurred with that Tony Levin bass.

Good basses OLPs, [i]if[/i] you find a nice one, but not in the same league as the real thing IMO.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Rayman' post='949561' date='Sep 8 2010, 04:13 PM']I spent a lot of time and money putting a Nordstrand 5.2 and a John East EQ into an OLP Tony Levin, but it just never was as good as my bog standard 2EQ Musicman Stingray, just not in the same league at all. Like you say, a great backup, but that really was all it could ever be, even with all the kit stuck in it. The quality of the timbers, screws, machining, everything just are not comparable. A musicman bass just feels like quality the minute you pick it up.[/quote]
I think that's the OLP I've ended up with. Brass nut as well as the Nordy/East combination? I know what you mean about the build quality. Not even close, and the neck profile's quite "clubby". BUT... tonally, I love it. It's my fretted bass of choice at the moment, and I actually prefer the sound over my genuine SR5. To me, it out-Stingrays the SR5.

Very tempted to put the East into the SR5, but the SR5 might not hang around too long after my ACG build's finished so I'm not sure it's worth it.

[fender73]

Hi all,

I gig an OLP MM which has had nothing other than a good set up and decent strings and it always draws admiring comments from muso's. I also wonder how many audience members in the 'dog and duck' would notice the different in bass sounds? My experience would be that they wouldn't. I have had a few nice custom basses inc a jaydee and a status kingbass, but found it too hard to get a decent consistent sound. The OLP is just a plug and go. I've also just bought a Vintage EJM96 jazz clone, be interesting to hear what that sounds like. I guess the cheap vs expensive argument will long continue, but my money is on the cheapies for all round value.

[mcnach]

[quote name='fender73' post='949663' date='Sep 8 2010, 05:34 PM']Hi all,

I gig an OLP MM which has had nothing other than a good set up and decent strings and it always draws admiring comments from muso's. I also wonder how many audience members in the 'dog and duck' would notice the different in bass sounds? My experience would be that they wouldn't. I have had a few nice custom basses inc a jaydee and a status kingbass, but found it too hard to get a decent consistent sound. The OLP is just a plug and go. I've also just bought a Vintage EJM96 jazz clone, be interesting to hear what that sounds like. I guess the cheap vs expensive argument will long continue, but my money is on the cheapies for all round value.[/quote]


I do agree, for all round value... the OLP.
In a live situation, unless you are in a big band making lots of $$$, you will play smaller venues and are at the mercy of their sound guy, who will make you sound the way he thinks you should sound (or whwtever he's able to achieve)... and the difefrnces may not be very large. MOst people in teh audience would not know, or care, as long as it's thumping.
But *you* will know. Hopefully onstage you'll feel the difference. If I feel the difference, it translates into how I play. Give me an uninspiring bass, and I'll probably play "meh", give me a nice one, and I'll enjoy it more, and it'll show.
The OLP will do the job. It *does* the job. Very nicely. Again and again. But it's even nicer (to me) the way the Stingray feels and sounds now.

I had rehearsal last night with the second band I'm in, where the bass is not as prominent. I didn't say I was playing a new bass, and nobody said anything. They didn't notice anything different. But I did. With this band we rehearse in this horrible cave-like space where everything sounds muddy unless you keep it really low volume, and even then it's not great. Again, with the same set up as I was used to, the Stingray felt tighter and more "focused". You don't *need* a Stingray and an OLP will get you very close indeed. But it's nice to have it, if you can, that's all

I used to own an EJM96 like yours. I loved it. I found the pickups to be rather microphonic on mine, 'though. It sounded ok, but I couldn't use it in rehearsal/live because from time to time I'd get feedback and I'd have to find a position to play where the bass would behave. I sold it before I got around to change pickups, and I regret it. It was very nice. But I was planning to move overseas and it made sense to cut down bulk.
I did two things to it, 'though: metal pickguard (black), I found it cheap and looked good... it helped with shielding. That was nice. I also installed a parallel/series switch. That was a great modification. In series it sounded massive... a great sound to have available.

[Rayman]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='949591' date='Sep 8 2010, 04:39 PM']I think that's the OLP I've ended up with. Brass nut as well as the Nordy/East combination? I know what you mean about the build quality. Not even close, and the neck profile's quite "clubby". BUT... tonally, I love it. It's my fretted bass of choice at the moment, and I actually prefer the sound over my genuine SR5. To me, it out-Stingrays the SR5.[/quote]

Yup, that's the one, I put a lot of time and money into that bass. It's a great bass, no question, and quite easily the best Tony Levin out there, and in fact Tony himself was interested in the work I'd done on it, and asked a few questions via email. The electrics are the best you can buy, and the brass nut was beautifully made by Steve Robinson in Manchester.

The original electrics were awful, I chucked the lot in the bin.

I guess it just comes down to the original timber and components, they're just not up to the quality of the US made stuff, but then it wouldn't be, it's produced for a fraction of the price, you get what you pay for at the end of the day.

It'd be a shame to pull the upgrades out of that particular bass, I think it's quite special as it is.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Rayman' post='950756' date='Sep 9 2010, 03:57 PM']It'd be a shame to pull the upgrades out of that particular bass, I think it's quite special as it is.[/quote]
I think you're right. The singer-songwriter I'm playing with at the moment loves the tone from the Levin as much as I do. Loads of bite and growl, and the EQ's [i]so[/i] flexible. Like I said, it's my go-to bass when I want frets.

Doesn't happen often, mind.

[fender73]

[quote name='mcnach' post='950476' date='Sep 9 2010, 12:13 PM']I used to own an EJM96 like yours. I loved it. I found the pickups to be rather microphonic on mine, 'though. It sounded ok, but I couldn't use it in rehearsal/live because from time to time I'd get feedback and I'd have to find a position to play where the bass would behave. I sold it before I got around to change pickups, and I regret it. It was very nice. But I was planning to move overseas and it made sense to cut down bulk.
I did two things to it, 'though: metal pickguard (black), I found it cheap and looked good... it helped with shielding. That was nice. I also installed a parallel/series switch. That was a great modification. In series it sounded massive... a great sound to have available.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice dude, much appreciated - for the price i paid, new pickups will be worthwhile i reckon if they are a bit naff

Cheers

Graeme

[fluffo]

[quote name='mcnach' post='949038' date='Sep 8 2010, 01:37 AM']Well...

some of you may know my love of OLP MM2 (stingray clone) basses.
By themselves they're just ok, but with a good pickup and a decent preamp... they're fantastic. They are.

Recently I bought a MM Stingray, a 2002 2EQ model. beautiful. It didn't stop me loving my main OLP. I liked both. They're different. My OLP is more like a 3EQ, while the Stingray now has a JE preamp, so it has the character of the 2EQ, but I get the possibility of altering the mids if Iwant to. Different. Both great.

I have tried numerous Stingrays before, and they were ok. Brilliant even, some of them. But not enough to make me feel my OLP was not quite right.

I even joked my new Stingray would be the backup of my OLP!



Well.

Today...

Today things changed.



Today I used the Stingray at a proper rehearsal. At last. Been leaving it at home too long, what with changing preamp etc.
No home-friendly volume anymore. Same place where I've played my OLP a million times, same room, same amp, same everything.

And the Stingray felt BIGGER, powerful, really tight lows, punchy. Just like the OLP, in fact
No, just kidding... the OLP sounds great, but the Stingray sounded... clearly better. It just had a definition and body that I haven't obtained from my OLP before.
My bandmates agreed.
Interestingly, I didn't touch the mid control, so I was playing it purely as a 2EQ (although I do feel the John East preamp produced tighter lows than the original).

So it turns out that whilst at moderate volumes there isn't too much difference... once you turn up the volume, the Stingray comes ahead and wins the race easily.

I'm upset. :wacko:
I loved being able to prefer the cheaper version, purely on playability and sound alone. But it turns out I'm going to end up putting the Stingray on top just like all those snobs out there

I still love the OLPs... But the Stingray really is something else.

So there, I said it.

A MM Stingray is better after all than a souped up OLP.

(but OLPs are still great!!!)




EDIT: For Saturday's gig I will use the Stingray now. I suspect it's going to be my main bass from now on.[/quote]
The big question is 6 x the money ,6 x as good????????????

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='fluffo' post='951751' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:54 PM']The big question is 6 x the money ,6 x as good????????????[/quote]
That's pretty subjective really.


But as a ballpark I'd say 50 x as good.

[mcnach]

[quote name='fluffo' post='951751' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:54 PM']The big question is 6 x the money ,6 x as good????????????[/quote]


ask 20 bassists this question, and you'll get 24 different answers

how do you measure that?

I'd say no. Prices work on a geometric progression while quality works on an arithmetic one. Or something.
I refuse to pick a number, but if I did it'd be a lot lower than that quoted by my learned friend Ou7shined

[ezbass]

Basses (and probably most if not all musical instruments) are subject to the law of diminishing returns. The other problem is how you quantify better and then put a calibration on it, it just ain't happening. You either percieve a more expensive product to be better and are happy to pay the going rate, or you're not.

Wow that sounded quite grown up, I must stop this immediately!

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='mcnach' post='951903' date='Sep 10 2010, 03:11 PM']ask 20 bassists this question, and you'll get 24 different answers

how do you measure that?

[b]I'd say no. Prices work on a geometric progression while quality works on an arithmetic one. Or something.[/b]
I refuse to pick a number, but if I did it'd be a lot lower than that quoted by my learned friend Ou7shined [/quote]
I like the sound of that. I'll just go get my abacus and slide rule and I'll be back with a more accurate answer.

Oh it turns out that they are 47.3895 x better.




A thought started forming in my mind while typing that rather crap joke....

If I offered you a OLP for your ray (level playing field - both basses have had let's say 3-4 previous owners) Strange condition to the trade, you must keep the bass for 2 years. Would you take it?

If I offered you 2 OLPs for your ray (same conditions) would you shake hands?

How many used OLPs before you trade?

That's the amount right there of how much better they are.