I want to clear this up once and for all

[Jigster]

This frustrates me so much because I'm always on the stage and not out front..BUT got a gig this Saturday and will use my LMK11 through a 4x10 Bergantino, and give the LMK my fave settings to best aid the sound I want from my jazz...So far so good.

But then I get to thinking, and this is something I can't resolve, how much of the sound I'm happy with onstage will remain in essence from the LMK11 as the sound guy DI's me and my bass goes thro the PA to be heard out front?

for example: if I boost the low mids and lessen the highs on the LMK11 does that translate to be heard out front thro the PA sound??

Ta

Edited September 8, 2010 by Jigster

[charic]

Tell him to stop being a pansy and Mic up the amp like a real sound engineer

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Jigster' post='949097' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:29 AM']for example: if I boost the low mids and lessen the highs on the LMK11 does that translate to be heard out front thro the PA sound??[/quote]

Depends whether the [i][b]DI Out[/b][/i] on the LMII is pre-EQ or post-EQ. I've not used one, but it should be easy enough to check. On Eden kit I think it's normally user-selectable.

Even if your signal is post-EQ to the board, it can still be over-ridden by whatever settings the sound engineer uses, of course.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='Jigster' post='949097' date='Sep 8 2010, 08:29 AM']for example: if I boost the low mids and lessen the highs on the LMK11 does that translate to be heard out front thro the PA sound??[/quote]

Briefly, until the sound guy cuts the low mids and increases the highs at the desk to compensate.

S.P.

[nottswarwick]

Actually you don't always want your onstage sound to be the same as foh sound. You will optimise the sound of your rig to sound good to your ears on that stage, but out front it might need different eq etc - and you won't know that from where you are stood.

This is why it is often preferable to have a pre eq signal sent to the foh engineer, so that any changes you make do not change the signal he receives. The lm2 is post eq as stock but can be changed internally.

[51m0n]

For best results have him mic the cab

For very best results buy a Heil PR-40 and make him use that to mic the cab....

The cab is a major, major influence on tone - all cabs are, the entire concept of 'neutral' bass cabs is utter tosh, none of them are really flat, some a re less flat than others mind, if you want a flat audio reproduction system you need huge studio monitors, and the exact right room. Same with PAs (they are often even worse, when set up by idiots who consider bass to be all about sub - rant rant rant!).

[Musicman20]

Mic the cab....much better! Although some DIs are excellent on amps. Ive not tried the MB one, but the RH450 DI is staggering!

[chris_b]

The reality is that the FOH sound is best EQ'ed and balanced from the front of house. The rest of the band will be going through FOH so you'll have to as well. The chances are that you're sound on stage won't sound anything like as good out front, and you won't know either way, cos you're not out front! Also, putting a mic on the cab won't change anything.

If you have a sound guy you don't know or don't trust then that is a different problem. Talk to him and discuss what you want. You will probably get a better sound if he does his job properly than if you try to dictate the sound from the stage. The bottom line is that if the gig is large enough to warrant a PA and sound guy then you really have to go with the sound guy, or bring your own!

[JTUK]

yes..agree. It is nice to have a term of reference but the soundmans job is to mix the band not only the bass.
I aim for a nice playable and enjoyable sound on stage and hope the soundman gets some of it out front....
From bass POV, it is likely to be big lows and some highs in the mix which will do for me...
Subtle mids and the like will likely only be showcased when the rest of the band is quiet.

However, if you use your amp as a bass monitor, which you should, IMV, and get your sounds from the bass, that is the best way of trying to place your sound out front, IME.
I don't go for mids on the amp..I use the back pup

Edited September 8, 2010 by JTUK

[Lozz196]

Yep, go pre-eq with the DI, and trust the soundman. I played a gig on Sun, where the provided backline was an Aguilar set-up, and I really didn`t like the on-stage sound, however, all the bands that day had awesome bass sounds out front, so didn`t really concern me too much, as I knew the soundman was delivering. Given the choice between either me being happy, or the punters, well the punters win, though in an ideal world, it would be both.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Lozz196

[ironside1966]

Trust the sound man he is there to make the band sound good.
Mic’ing the bass cab can have its problems let’s not forget about feedback and rumble.
What you hear coming out of the cab is not what a microphone hears when it’s an inch of the speakers the cab may be ported and have tweeters, the sound of a bass cab takes space to develop.
Secondly most people us a kick drum mic which is the most colored microphone in the soundman’s arsenal it has boosted low cut mids a 2 -4 k presences peak.

[Jigster]

thanks for all this guys - not in the position of our own sound tech so kind of used to this approach, but wanted to get a sense really of just how much colour my amp settings had on the proceedings - i guess it's really in recording where one can shape the sound more to absolute preference..or in gigs where it's just the backline???

[King Tut]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='949336' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:23 PM']Yep, go pre-eq with the DI, and trust the soundman. I played a gig on Sun, where the provided backline was an Aguilar set-up, and I really didn`t like the on-stage sound, however, all the bands that day had awesome bass sounds out front, so didn`t really concern me too much, as I knew the soundman was delivering. Given the choice between either me being happy, or the punters, well the punters win, though in an ideal world, it would be both.[/quote]

Were you playing at the BOB gig at The pitz?

[wateroftyne]

Generally, no matter how much you twiddle, your FOH sound will be however the sound guy wants you to sound.

[ironside1966]

From my experience
The older experienced pros have a sound of their instruments that work well in the context of the band and often this is mirrored in their arrangement of the song so all the sound man has to do is lift the sound.
Younger’s less experienced players have a sound that sounds good on its own so then you have to try and correct that and make it work in a band context.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='King Tut' post='949353' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:43 PM']Were you playing at the BOB gig at The pitz?[/quote]
Indeed I was, I`m in The Daves. Were you also playing?

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='949360' date='Sep 8 2010, 12:51 PM']From my experience
The older experienced pros have a sound of their instruments that work well in the context of the band and often this is mirrored in their arrangement of the song so all the sound man has to do is lift the sound.
Younger’s less experienced players have a sound that sounds good on its own so then you have to try and correct that and make it work in a band context.[/quote]

I concur.

I often preferred to use a DI because it was much easier to get a serviceable sound from it than a mic - since every loudspeaker is to some extent a compromise especially at the bass end, it's better to have one lot of compromising going on than two (PA alone rather than cab then PA)! Add to that the mic roll-off, non-ideal cab placement in many venues, the tone being set on stage with a background of very high treble from drums/upper mids from guitars and nine times out of ten you're better off DI-ing. The tenth time out of ten is a good venue, with good kit, and a good band who REALLY know their tone AND how perception of tone varies at different volume levels and against each others' instruments.

A half decent PA rig will have far more sophisticated tone-shaping capabilities than your average bass amp anyway. You just have to hope the sound engineer 'gets' your tone (and that your tone is actually one that works in the context of your band as ironside says!). But if they don't they'll stuff it up from the mic or from the DI so it makes no difference.

[Tdw]

as many have said your basically at the mercy of the soundman, it depends on how much volume is put out through the bass amp and how much is put through the pa, but at a bigish gig your amp is basically a monitor. you can send a post or pre eq signal but the soundman will still add or subtract what frequencies he thinks is right.

[51m0n]

Just want to debunk a myth or two:-

Many soundmen in smaller venues cant be trusted to tie their own shoe laces and know f all about acoustics. They just own a PA, with luck they may know how to set it up reasonably well, but dont count on it!

Bass does not take space to 'develop', its all there at the source!! Try [i]close[/i] micing a tuba, or even a ride cymbal if you doubt this, bass is bass is bass....

A mic an inch from a speaker will get a fairly good dose of bass boost due to proximity effect, positioned off axis will take out the extreme top end. If you need less boost then move the mic away a couple of inches. It will have all the low mids you could ever need, and thats where the real pitch info is. If you need some tweeter in the mic then move the mic, mic positioing is an art aswell as a science, but it does follow some pretty sensible guidelines...

A mic an inch from a speaker will not cause undue rumble or feedback, it wont need to have its gain set high enough to feedback, if there is likelihood of feedback from a monitor then try reversing the polarity of the monitor signal...

Ports produce mainly deep bass, which most sound guys will be pulling out of your FOH sound anyway, (they want mainly kick down there for that all important whump thu the chest cavity) so a mic helps in this regard

Kick mics are pretty crap bass amp mics (IMO), especially if the same make and model is used for both, you want to mix the two sources to compliment each other, that is harder f the two signals have the same enforced mic eq on them to begin with. A better bet is a full range dynamic (like a PR-40 or RE20 for instance), but you can do surprisingly well with a decent SM57 put in the right place.

The sound that matters is the sound in the mix, not the FOH solo'ed bass sound!!!!!!!

[ironside1966]

[quote name='51m0n' post='950071' date='Sep 8 2010, 11:12 PM']Just want to debunk a myth or two:-


Bass does not take space to 'develop', its all there at the source!! Try [i]close[/i] micing a tuba, or even a ride cymbal if you doubt this, bass is bass is bass....[/quote]

The actualle sound you hear 3 feet from the cab is made up of the speaker the bass port maybe a tweeter then the acoustics you place a cab near a wall or in a corner that will reinforce the bass also. all this takes space to gell together, what about multi speaker set ups.

What you said about a tube is a good example because the sound of a brass instrument is not just what comes out of the bell it is the combination of breath the keys in fact the entire instrument, again a cymbal the sound is made up of the entire cymbal vibrating with various harmonics throughout the cymbal but a mic far enough away to pick up the entire cymbal.

If you have an overdriven or distorted bass sound then I can see the sense in mic'ing up the cab but if you have a super clean head then why?

In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it.
In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it. In smaller rooms there is often enough sound coming from the cab anyway so only a little help is needed.
A full room sounds completely different from a empty one and the Di signal is a lot easier to correct then a mic one.

With sound men and PA you get what you pay for mayny venues uses students of people working for expreance.
anybody can buy a PA and say tey are a sound man and but how many work 5 days a week.

Ask 100 engineers and get 100 different answers.

Edited September 9, 2010 by ironside1966

[thisnameistaken]

Are stages really a good place to mic a bass cab? In the studio I prefer to DI, I can imagine the results are a lot less predictable on a stage.

[ironside1966]

The simple answer to your question is there is no right answer.
Here is what going on in my head when sound checking the bass. When I am setting the levels I am listening to the bass sound then quickly with the EQ I try to match what is coming through the pa with what is coming from the cab. This is not full proof by any means and you are never going to be exact, There may be times when this does not work a good example of this is the stranglers sound where the speakers breaking up is just as important as the pre amp overdrive. Most bass players like good powerful clean sounding speakers (yes I know they color the sound).
When mixing the band I try to make the sound work in the context of the music. DI is far more covenant and much less trouble and generally the results are a good sound that works in the mix.
Microphones temperamental things they take time and skill to place get the best out of them, you move them a few center meters the sound changes musicians kick them vibrations move them they rumble the sound changes as the levels increase.
So really my question to you is why it is so important to get the sound exact?

Edited September 9, 2010 by ironside1966

[51m0n]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='950138' date='Sep 9 2010, 01:18 AM']The actualle sound you hear 3 feet from the cab is made up of the speaker the bass port maybe a tweeter then the acoustics you place a cab near a wall or in a corner that will reinforce the bass also. all this takes space to gell together, what about multi speaker set ups.

What you said about a tube is a good example because the sound of a brass instrument is not just what comes out of the bell it is the combination of breath the keys in fact the entire instrument, again a cymbal the sound is made up of the entire cymbal vibrating with various harmonics throughout the cymbal but a mic far enough away to pick up the entire cymbal.

If you have an overdriven or distorted bass sound then I can see the sense in mic'ing up the cab but if you have a super clean head then why?

In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it.
In the real word if I you do a lot of work with a sound engineer they can try things out over time and improving things. You may hire the PA with plenty of time for a sound check then I would have no hesitation in mic’ing a bass cab but in a lot of venues you are rushed of your feet trying to get 2 or more bands sorted in half an hour then it’s not going to happen will the band sound suffer I doubt it. In smaller rooms there is often enough sound coming from the cab anyway so only a little help is needed.
A full room sounds completely different from a empty one and the Di signal is a lot easier to correct then a mic one.

With sound men and PA you get what you pay for mayny venues uses students of people working for expreance.
anybody can buy a PA and say tey are a sound man and but how many work 5 days a week.

Ask 100 engineers and get 100 different answers.[/quote]

The point I made was that the bass does not take room to develop. That is a complete myth.

A bass cab with multiple different transducers (ie driver, port, tweeter) will create different parts of the overall sound you hear from all of those, but the room plays as big a part in that as all the individual items, as such so does how far away you stand.

However the idea that the [b]bass[/b] 'develops' further away from the cab somehow is a nonsense, it is all there at the source, it just gets quieter as you move away from the cab (inverse square law applies, and cancellation from room nodes not withstanding). Moving away from the source further merely mixes different transducers. If you have a Bergantino NV215, NV610, NV412 or Ampeg 810 though, you have asealed cab with a single type of transducer, no ports, so why would you not close mic these cabs to get the actual sound you want to hear (or a better approximation of it) to the sound guy? Regardless of whether or not you use a distorted tone, the cab changes the tone - a great deal! So if you love the sound of your cab and ampo and you want to reproduce it, then mic it up!

A DI doesnt sound anything like a well mic'ed clean cab. not even close. It will have way greater extension both into the treble and bass than a cab will have, even mic'ed with several mics. This is a harder thing to mix in with the band then, not easier - its a complete fallacy that a DI is always easier to frequency mix into a band's sound IME. A DI will be punchier though, it will have faster transients, and it will have a wider frequency response. Doesnt make it sound better necessarily - it will often sound pretty sterile, and need help to make it sound interesting (a nice opto compressor is a great way to achieve this), many engineers dont understand where bass pitch info is IMO, and eq it all out anyway. Leaving you as a nasty wooommmwooomwommm sound in the room. So it wont matter if you ask them to mic or DI - you'll get a crap result.

Same point with a tuba, the bass frequencies are all there close mic'ed, if you close mic a cymbal you hear the bass that is too low energy to go very far, you would be amazed at how deep the frequencies a crash cymbal actually produces (sub 80Hz typically) - is this a bass instrument? No but your seem to suggest that the bass cannot be captured with a close mic. I agree the full sound of a tuba in all its parts is only heard several feet away, but the bass is there at the bell, and micing a tuba for a live gig is a wonderful lesson in conpromise (a friend of mine is a pro tuba player in various bands doing eastern european gypsy music - we figured out how to mic his tuba pretty much, its taken a couple of years to absolutely nail it down, but its brilliant now, for a live setup with a musician who needs freedom of movement as well as great tone).

Why do guitarists get mic'ed always, even if they have a tranny amp and a clean sound? How long do sound engineers take micing a guitar cab for live, and do the results sound OK?

Its a nonsense to presume that it is so difficult to mic a bass cab! It isnt. Its no harder than micing a guitar cab. It more accurately reflects the sound you want to produce as well in many cases.

If you happen to prefer the sound of your bass DI'ed to your bass through your rig, then by all means give the sound guy a DI and go with it - whatever works for you!!!

If you want to get the sound guy to work with your sound then ask (nicely, with a beer ready for a bribe if need be) to be mic'ed, it really takes no more time than setting up a DI or micing a guitar cab, and will mean that his staring point is your sound from your rig. An sm57 can do a remarkable job on a bass amp, if you get serious though save up for a HEil PR40, they are the mutts undercarriage!

As for feedback, as I said before the soundguy will be busy getting sub bass frequencies out of the kick at SPLs far greater than the bass and lo-mid he should be looking for from your bass, if they dont feed back why would the bass?

Why would you assume that a DI signal is easier to correct than a mic'ed one? If you fill a room with people they will suck up more of the upper mids and treble than they do bass, but they will have an impact there too. Any enginneer worth his salt will be trying to accomodate the room as it will be with people (best guesses involved here naturally), so the soundcheck should be a little bright. How is that harder to achieve with a mic'ed bass? Turn up a shelving eq a couple of dB more above 1KHz and you are there - oh your bass sound doesnt do anything above 800HZ (old strings for instance) then dont worry about it, the bass will not change much in the mix...

[ironside1966]

Just to sum up if I gave the impression that bass frequencies need time to develop then that is not what I intended to say, the sound you hear is the sum of many part not just the drivers.
It is not a myth that it is more covenants and there is less to go wrong. Mic; ing is easier to mix depends on many variables including if the stage is hollow and the room acoustic and the actual tone of the cab.
It is harder to but back something that’s been taken out so if the sound is muffled, has no mids or the player is compensating for a bright room then you are scrweed so I would always use a di as back up
James Jameson used to DI his bass straight to the desk and we all know what a sterile sound that is.


In my experience as a free lance sound engineer of many years working with anything from small pubs to large out door events with many kw watts working between 200 and 250 show a year so I must have done something right I would say 95% of the time the bass was Di,ed and no one complained apart fro a few original bands but the pros musicians seemed to be happy.

Edited September 9, 2010 by ironside1966

[51m0n]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='950690' date='Sep 9 2010, 03:07 PM']Just to sum up if I gave the impression that bass frequencies need time to develop then that is not what I intended to say, the sound you hear is the sum of many part not just the drivers.[/quote]

Fair play, I misunderstood what you were trying to say mate. No probs. I think we are in complete agreement about how a bass cab functions then.


[quote name='ironside1966' post='950690' date='Sep 9 2010, 03:07 PM']In my experience as a free lance sound engineer of many years working with anything from small pubs to large out door events with many kw watts working between 200 and 250 show a year so I must have done something right I would say 95% of the time the bass was Di,ed and no one complained apart fro a few original bands but the pros musicians seemed to be happy.[/quote]

Not disagreeing with the fact that a DI can work fine for a huge number of players.

However would you be DI'ing a bass going into an SVT on full on rawk overdrive?

Is it so hard to mic one up then?

In your honest opinion, is it really harder to mic a bass cab up than to mic a guitar cab?

My point is that some people who have a clean sound like what it is their cabs do to the sound more than they like the sound of their bass DI'ed. Just because they have what is perceived to be a clean sound, doesnt mean the the distortion of the signal imparted by their cab isnt something they want to hear. Just food for thought....

In the case where you DI the bass, do you find you like to compress the signal after the fact. Had you ever thought that if you mic the cab, that cab may inherently be compressing that signal (to a certain extent), since a transducer must be slower than an electrical impulse. Just a thought again...

How many of those 200 to 250 gigs a year did you have the bassist come out to where you were doing sound to hear the FOH? I'd better the bigger the gig the less likely it is to happen (its nigh on impossible to for a start - wireless or no wireless).

So they may be happy with how things went, but the player doesnt really know what he sounds like FOH, and they accept that as how its going to be (so they should mate, I've done plenty of FOH too - who do they think they are worrying about the bass sound eh ). So how can you say they love what you did to their sound? They may love the experience, it may have all gone swimmingly, but unless they are in the audience they have no real idea how they sound FOH, its all about trust, making them feel comfortable etc etc.