tauzero Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Mark Latimour' post='969332' date='Sep 27 2010, 12:15 PM']WHilst I would probably have to get Jason from Fodera to explain it better than I could, I can imagine why they charge what they do for a pickguard: IIRC there are only 3 or 4 buidlers at FOdera (and I believe only 3 who actually work on the basses). If someone is spending an hour making a hand cut pickguard, that's a hour that they are not spending on a making an actual bass. I'd imagine that the pricing reflects the fact that the builder's time has been unitised and they now assign a time cost charge to each "option".[/quote] So how does that work with a lined fretless, where they use exactly the same slots that they'd have cut for the frets to go into and stick either some veneer or some wood putty in and then flat the surface with the same radius block they used earlier (and charged $1000 for using if it wasn't the one that they normally use), saving them the time that it would take to put the frets in, trim them, true them up, stone them, crown them etc? A net saving in luthier time for which the customer is charged $499. Does this mean that Fodera actually charge a negative hourly rate for some tasks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I would guess that the $500 pickguard is Fodera's way of saying "we don't believe that our custom basses should have pickguards, but if you really want one here's what you'll need to pay to convince us to do it". There was another luthier a while back who had a list of things that they wouldn't do on a bass including IIRC no gold hardware and no lined fretless fingerboards. It's pretty much adds up to the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I cant see why youd want a pickguard on it! If the wood is that expensive, show it. Not my cup of tea, but there we go. I dont even think as I get older, and progress in law, that ill be attracted to the uber boutique instruments. But, we all have our tastes. If I had 5-8K to spend on basses, Id just buy 3-5 fairly high end yet normal bass guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Musicman20' post='970447' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:34 AM']If I had 5-8K to spend on basses, Id just buy 3-5 fairly high end yet normal bass guitars.[/quote] Amen to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marlat Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='tauzero' post='970439' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:26 AM']So how does that work with a lined fretless, where they use exactly the same slots that they'd have cut for the frets to go into and stick either some veneer or some wood putty in and then flat the surface with the same radius block they used earlier (and charged $1000 for using if it wasn't the one that they normally use), saving them the time that it would take to put the frets in, trim them, true them up, stone them, crown them etc? A net saving in luthier time for which the customer is charged $499. Does this mean that Fodera actually charge a negative hourly rate for some tasks?[/quote] You'd have to ask Fodera. You can always send Jason an email he's very responsive and open about their pricing. As someone mentioned some things may be based on additional labour costs and some on discouraging having the options picked. Fbass is a classic example of a company that charges a disproportionate amount for a fancy top option because iirc he doesn't believe it adds any value tone wise. Perhaps there is a bit of this in the pickguarf pricing. Like you I'd assume a fretless is quicker to make, but maybe it takes them longer. You'd have to ask fodera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Sorry Max, I'm going to have to disagree with you again. I don't think it's accurate to say that they are not charging you $500 merely for a pickguard. They are charging you $500 to: - draw a template for the pickguard for your [i]totally custom [/i]bass (e.g. to fit around pickup routings, complement the bass, perhaps a push-fit attachment? to allow removal without mounting holes) - make the pickguard from scratch (this could mean ordering in material that could sit around unused for a while if no-one else orders one, unlikely but other businesses suffer the same problem and set prices higher to compensate) - shape it (e.g. bevels etc) and ensure it fits correctly (to a higher standard than mass produced pickguards that may not exactly fit/complement a given bass) - drill pilot holes to mount... or ensure it push fits correctly so you could leave it on, or remove it without leaving any holes. Another point I thought of is, with Fender basses for example, the height difference between the last fret and the body is HUGE without the pickguard. However with non-pickguarded basses the height is comparable to the height between the last fret and the top of a pickguard (my W&T between an example). Therefore, Fodera may make the clearance between the last fret and body greater (relative to their normal non-pickguarded basses) to ensure the pickguard fits and doesn't interfere with playing. I've played some basses where the last fret is very low relative to the body, and having a pickguard fitted would intefere with playing. In short, I can imagine if they normally make necks having a fretboard height that has low body clearance, then this could require a different design of the custom bass from the outset. Mark Edited September 28, 2010 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Musicman20' post='970447' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:34 AM']I cant see why youd want a pickguard on it! If the wood is that expensive, show it. Not my cup of tea, but there we go. I dont even think as I get older, and progress in law, that ill be attracted to the uber boutique instruments. But, we all have our tastes. If I had 5-8K to spend on basses, Id just buy 3-5 fairly high end yet normal bass guitars.[/quote] Funnily enough I'd do the exact opposite, lol. If I had a fixed budget then I'd go for the very best single bass I could afford. I'm not exactly one to talk about this as I haven't been following this maxim. However my final plan is to work out exactly which of my basses are the ones I like the most & then I'll sell all the rest. Currently my Fodera stands head and shoulders above the others. My principal exception to this broad theory is that I'd like to own a pair of them. Ideally one high end custom build that I'd mostly use at home and another more 'workmanlike' one for gigging and rehearsals. Currently I believe I own the latter so have my eyes (and wallet) firmly targeted towards the former Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 While we're on the topic of great basses Molan, you have an AMAZING collection and I salute you for your fine choices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='maxrossell' post='970428' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:15 AM']Yeah, it is. That's exactly what it is. The whole thing costs $5,500, and the bass without the pickguard costs $5,000. Do the math. You want to make a sandwich, the ingredients cost £4.00. You decide you want to add some cheese to your sandwich, so the ingredients now cost £5.00. That's [i]exactly the same thing[/i] as the cheese costing £1.00.[/quote] If you want to view it in terms of sandwiches you'll never see what I'm saying so there's no point going further - which is a shame I normally really enjoy talking to you Max . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='mcgraham' post='970453' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:41 AM']Sorry Max, I'm going to have to disagree with you again. I don't think it's accurate to say that they are not charging you $500 merely for a pickguard. They are charging you $500 to: - draw a template for the pickguard for your [i]totally custom [/i]bass (e.g. to fit around pickup routings, complement the bass, perhaps a push-fit attachment? to allow removal without mounting holes) - make the pickguard from scratch (this could mean ordering in material that could sit around unused for a while if no-one else orders one, unlikely but other businesses suffer the same problem and set prices higher to compensate) - shape it (e.g. bevels etc) and ensure it fits correctly (to a higher standard than mass produced pickguards that may not exactly fit/complement a given bass) - drill pilot holes to mount... or ensure it push fits correctly so you could leave it on, or remove it without leaving any holes. Mark[/quote] No, you're right, it's not $500 for merely a pickguard. It's $500 for a pickguard [i]that fits the instrument you bought it for[/i]. C'mon man, it's a bit of cut plastic. I know I guy who would do all the above for you for £20, on any guitar, you don't even have to buy one of his custom instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) [quote name='molan' post='970458' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:44 AM']Funnily enough I'd do the exact opposite, lol. If I had a fixed budget then I'd go for the very best single bass I could afford. I'm not exactly one to talk about this as I haven't been following this maxim. However my final plan is to work out exactly which of my basses are the ones I like the most & then I'll sell all the rest. Currently my Fodera stands head and shoulders above the others. My principal exception to this broad theory is that I'd like to own a pair of them. Ideally one high end custom build that I'd mostly use at home and another more 'workmanlike' one for gigging and rehearsals. Currently I believe I own the latter so have my eyes (and wallet) firmly targeted towards the former [/quote] Haha, I am odd, I realise that. I had a budget of about 2.5k-3k for my 30th bass. I decide to research, see whats around, etc. I ended up spec'ing very normal options to luthiers, which in end was like just buying a very good example of a Fender, and I know id be a person to worry about resale values. Now, Im just ordering a Musicman Big Al 5, which is still quite odd, but I know they will get it right. I do think if you are confident enough it will be perfection, then go for it That applies to anyone spending a lot on one bass. Personally, Im all about having a variety of instruments that all sound how I want them to, and more importantly perhaps, feel good. Luckily ive been bowled over by Musicmans, so I dont have to spend too much. Edited September 28, 2010 by Musicman20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Don't get me wrong Max, I am most definitely with you in the sense that it's a ludicrous amount of money to spend on a flippin pickguard... I just had to disagree with your assertion that it was '$500 for a pickguard'. I too am a lawyer so am quite picky that way. Long and the short of it is that Fodera are skilled craftsman, they can charge x amount upwards provided people are willing to pay for that 'upwards' addition. Fortunately for them, there are people willing to do so, so they charge what they charge because they can. These prices can appear greed-motivated, but before jumping to that conclusion I would ask you to consider another luthier's pricing scheme. Jon Shuker charges relatively little for his work (yay! I hear many of you cry, including myself). However, as a result he is in extremely high demand... to the point he takes on more work than he can perhaps handle for a given time duration. Consequently, to meet the demand/work orders he has received and ensure the quality is up to par, he has to work longer hours and also typically delivers late (quite substantially late I might add). Now, if he upped his prices, less work would come his way which means he would have less orders but (ideally) the same amount of cash inflow relative to before. He would be more capable of finishing the orders he has taken on in the quoted time and meet QC he sets himself. You might say 'he could just say no to additional work?'. He could, but that runs the risk of no repeat business, and it means he has to make an active response to every query even if it's in the negative. However, by increasing prices, this will automatically mean less people make requests - hence provided an automatic filter process to reduce work orders/requests time spent responding to emails in the negative, without running the same risk as above. My point is that supply/demand serves a key role in maintaining a healthy business with the right workload level to income ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Toasted' post='970463' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:46 AM']If you want to view it in terms of sandwiches you'll never see what I'm saying so there's no point going further - which is a shame I normally really enjoy talking to you Max .[/quote] Why not? A bass is a product, just like a sandwich. You buy extra bits to go on it, you pay extra. I don't see what the difference is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Just so Max doesn't feel like he's going completely insane, I would like to declare myself firmly in the "If you have to pay $500 for something then surely logic dictates that it costs $500." camp. And I'll have mine made out of unicorn sh*t please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I never realised there were as many legal orientated basschatters on here! I no longer feel odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Musicman20' post='970494' date='Sep 28 2010, 11:23 AM']I never realised there were as many legal orientated basschatters on here! I no longer feel odd.[/quote] What astonishes me is that at £175 an hour, they're spending time on Basschat... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Oi! Ped gets my invoice every month just like everyone else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='tauzero' post='970496' date='Sep 28 2010, 11:25 AM']What astonishes me is that at £175 an hour, they're spending time on Basschat...[/quote] Hahha, good point. Well, im now just waiting for my Training Contract to kick in so I dont feel that guilty yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Just trying to get back on the topic: I've had a wonderfull afternoon at a friend's house where i could try one of the biggest collections i know (don't know that many). The basses i've had the opportunity to try were a Fodera Emperor Deluxe, 3 Ken Smith BT's 4 and 5 string, 2 kubicki factor 4 and 5 string, Alembic Elan 5 and several weaker basses (read Fender, Musicman, Warwick,...). From all the one with the best sound (more defined and accurate with the best tonal balance (bass/mid/high) ) and best finish to the bass itself was by far the Ken Smith. The Fodera just sounded too sterile played after the K.S. Even the Kubicki, in it's own unique way, had more sounds capable to put a smile in your face. I thought the Alembic was in the same overall level has the Fodera. Now start doing the pricing math! Too bad it wasn't there any Sadowsky to add to the trial... A few days latter i recieved my Yamaha TRB-5PII i got from a fellow BCer. I've tried it against the K.S. and the Smith still sounded nicer but against the Fodera my honest opinion (very imparcial, as you can imagine ) was that my TRB sounded better! More tonal control, less weight, better finish, faster and comfy neck... Summing up, until i've tried one i thought Fodera were the top-end of basses that i dream one day having but having compared a 12k (or around) bass to my used 900£ (about 2k new? realy don't know for how much they go over there, on UK) bass i'm now a very happy man . All that Fodera GAS was diverted to a nem one: Ken Smith GAS! Just my opinion! Everyone is intitled to their's. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Ghost_bass - Thanks for your input! Sounds like a good time at your mate's house. Just goes to show that different people like different things and there's no accounting for taste I have heard some stories of one or two Fodera's not being quite up to par for one reason or another, which for the price just amplifies the irritation of a slight problem. For example, an Epiphone with a rough finish patch would irk you slightly but you'd expect that, a US Fender less so, a custom shop Fender would annoy a fair bit, but for $10,000+ you'd expect it to be positively without blemish - you'd expect miraculous customer service, and the slightest detraction from that would be a massive deal. Which goes to show that it's not all easy going for them... just like law firms, the higher the profile, the more vigilance and utmost care needs to be taken. There must be a huge amount of pressure to performand deliver 100% of the time... no respite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Hands up who would not charge 400% more for their time if they could? End of. And frankly, good luck to them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='Musicman20' post='970447' date='Sep 28 2010, 10:34 AM']If I had 5-8K to spend on basses, Id just buy 3-5 fairly high end yet normal bass guitars.[/quote] Of course you would. You obviously don't have enough basses yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='owen' post='970778' date='Sep 28 2010, 03:30 PM']Hands up who would not charge 400% more for their time if they could? End of. And frankly, good luck to them as well.[/quote] Plus one. Have to agree, even though the prices irritate me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 [quote name='owen' post='970778' date='Sep 28 2010, 03:30 PM']Hands up who would not charge 400% more for their time if they could? End of. And frankly, good luck to them as well.[/quote] *Raises hand* I produce and engineer records. I deliberately don't charge anywhere near as much as I could for my time. Okay, we're not talking 400% more but I could charge twice what I'm currently billing without losing any business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted September 30, 2010 Share Posted September 30, 2010 Wow - look at these two babies that are just about to emerge from the Fodera shop I'm loving the look of these and the workmanship looks amazing. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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