How is this legal?

[ednaplate]

I've seen a link to this a few times and decided to investigate. Basically it is a website selling fake Fenders, Gibsons. Rickies etc. How on earth can it be legal or ethical to knowingly import what are so obviously copy instruments?

A cheap Rickenbacker 4003 anyone?

[url="http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Rickenbacker-4003-Bass-Guitar-Wooden-Colors/111390-1714088.html#"]http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Rickenba...0-1714088.html#[/url]

[casapete]

There are regularly fake Gibsons for sale on various sites in the UK which are obviously disregarding numerous trading laws.
Even the cases are Gibson branded, and the guitars may easily be mistaken for the genuine article by young/inexperienced
players. Seems more than a bit wrong to me, am just amazed they have n't been rumbled yet.

[EdwardHimself]

Unfortunately i think in China the government are more bothered about covering the tianmen square massacre than preventing factories making knock offs of western branded products...

[flyfisher]

[quote name='ednaplate' post='952060' date='Sep 10 2010, 05:40 PM']How on earth can it be legal or ethical to knowingly import what are so obviously copy instruments?[/quote]
Well, aside from the complexity on different cultures having different ethics, the basic answer to the question must be 'it isn't'.

But, unfortunately, people break laws. Simple as that. T'was always so and t'will always be.

[Apex]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='952104' date='Sep 10 2010, 06:09 PM']Unfortunately i think in China the government are more bothered about covering the tianmen square massacre than preventing factories making knock offs of western branded products...[/quote]

I thought I remembered some US-China deal from the past - [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3648653.stm"]BBC link[/url]

Looks like 'cautious optimism' was well over optimistic!

[skankdelvar]

I am filled with admiration for these tiny little chaps, beavering away in their factories to supply us with 'quality reproductions' at a fraction of the price of the real thing. While bloated Western companies bilk our nation's youth with overpriced tat (step forward, Mr Hall), John Chinaman has seen an angle and craftily exploited it, while politely requesting no more than a daily cup of rice as his reward.

To complain that such instruments inevitably explode in a cloud of wood shards and flying screws is the act of a nit-picking pedant. Long live the PRC and its 'flexible' copyright laws.

[wesfinn]

some of it doesn't look half bad to be fair! You can tell they are copies but they are going to a lot off effort here for virtually peanuts! Theres a gold top Les paul VOS which looks pretty good!

still a bit naughty tho!

[Mog]

Its not restricted to online dealers. Theres a pretty famous store in Dublin thats was caught selling knockoff instruments not so long ago. I'm sure they're not the only ones.

[spinynorman]

I like the "What's Hot?" tab. Almost everything.

The weird thing is there's Squier and Ibanez basses on there that aren't much cheaper than a "Fender". I hope they're real, cos the idea of a fake Squier does my head in.

[Mr. Foxen]

I'd love a fake Squier.

I think that putting so much importance on a name written on something is the wrong bit. If people judge how good something was by how good it was, there wouldn't be a problem.

[Cat Burrito]

I've seen some of the "Gibson" Les Pauls up close & they were shocking. The logos were better than some of the genuine recent Gibsons ironically. Sounded shocking, mind!

[yorks5stringer]

It's the old maxim: if it seems too good to be true, it usually is!

Edited September 10, 2010 by yorks5stringer

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' post='952367' date='Sep 10 2010, 11:54 PM']It's the old maxim: if it seems too good to be true, it usually is![/quote]

+1 at the end of the day anyone who thinks that they're getting a new gibson for £200 is obviously setting themselves up for the drop imo.

[spinynorman]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='952353' date='Sep 10 2010, 11:37 PM']I'd love a fake Squier.

I think that putting so much importance on a name written on something is the wrong bit. If people judge how good something was by how good it was, there wouldn't be a problem.[/quote]

Well ... if a bass has a Fender or Gibson label on it, that should tell you certain things about it - for example where it may have been made, with what quality of materials, to what standards of workmanship. You may not like them, and there may be variations between one instrument and another, but broadly you know what to expect. If the manufacturer lets those standards slip, as has happened at various times, then their reputation takes a hit.

So if Hung So Lo company in China makes cheap basses with their label on, that is ok, they will either acquire a reputation for value (as Rondo and Bach have done), or they won't. If they sell tat basses with Fender and Gibson labels on, and conceal their origins, then how do we know what is going on? It's ok-ish on a chinese web site, as it's fairly obvious what is going on, but it's a wholesale site, so those instruments can find their way to dealers here and onto eBay, and then people get ripped off.

[Al Heeley]

In my experience of doing business with China there is a different culture of pride in turning out cost-effective equivalents; some of the watches mimicking the big western brands are very good quality with tremendous attention to detail which makes you wonder why the 'real things' (most likely many components coming from same factories) attract such a bloated premium. Is the price a true reflection of the cost of an item? Of course not, people are just buying into a brand for elitism, the dearer the better.
I don't think they are hiding the origins of these products, the price alone tells us its not a real one. If someone sells one for $1600 and tries to pass it off as real then a crime is committed, but for people coveting the shape/look of a ricky or a les paul type or a telecaster type, these are a viable alternative. A lot of western patent laws are very hard to enforce in china, I have to admire their skill and tenacity turning out some of these 'knock off' products.

[Tegs]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='953278' date='Sep 12 2010, 12:42 AM']In my experience of doing business with China there is a different culture of pride in turning out cost-effective equivalents; some of the watches mimicking the big western brands are very good quality with tremendous attention to detail which makes you wonder why the 'real things' (most likely many components coming from same factories) attract such a bloated premium. Is the price a true reflection of the cost of an item? Of course not, people are just buying into a brand for elitism, the dearer the better.
I don't think they are hiding the origins of these products, the price alone tells us its not a real one. If someone sells one for $1600 and tries to pass it off as real then a crime is committed, but for people coveting the shape/look of a ricky or a les paul type or a telecaster type, these are a viable alternative. A lot of western patent laws are very hard to enforce in china, I have to admire their skill and tenacity turning out some of these 'knock off' products.[/quote]



I have to agree. Five years ago, any hand planes coming out of China were shocking things, now however, they are producing tools that are almost identical to very high end UK and USA stuff with the quality to boot. And at a tiny fraction of the cost! (I don't use 'em mind )

Give them a few years and those guitars will probably be worth having.

Here's to the free market! (Although I don't condone fakery).

[spinynorman]

It's strange really, people will happily pay a fortune for their Apple iThing made in China. It's only because guitar makers have managed to sell the association of Made in America with quality.

[bluesparky]

Chinese rip-offs are everywhere in my industry too.
There are a couple of very big and very popular professional moving light manufacturers in the world and their most popular products have famously been dissected screw by screw and copied.
Even their names were similar (the spelling was a couple of letters different for each product).
Of course the quality was barely 10% of the original and were horrible and simply didn't work.
The manufacturers can't do anything about it, but the people who purchase said items can, if you buy it, all you're doing it fuelling that industry and filling the marketplace with shoddy equipment which one day we'll encounter and suffer by using it.


Recently there was an issue where a moving light caught fire in the scoreboard above a baskeball court during a game. The game had to be stopped and the rig dropped in so it could be extinguished, on TV.
One quick look at the footage makes it look like it's an original item, but on closer inspection it's clear to see that's it's copy / forgery / direct rip off and probably why it caught fire in the first place.
This surely caused a headache for the manufacturer of the original lights as it would appear to be unwanted negative publicity for them when it's not actually their product.

I know it's changing the subject slightly (but that's i all i know a lot about!) but it's in the similar vein, and a continuous soruce of annoyance to all involved.

[ThomBassmonkey]

I've played some chinese knockoff guitars and I was pretty impressed. A customer at our shop owned two Gibson Black Beauty guitars, then bought a LP 50th anniversary copy, he said the copy (which cost him something like £250) was better than the originals.

I think the laws regarding this kind of stuff is that it's legal to sell so long as the shop's not passing it off as the original product, but the manufacturer is in the wrong for copying (though as has been said, they're not so concerned about a few laws in China). I'm quite possibly wrong though.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='955715' date='Sep 14 2010, 08:58 AM']I've played some chinese knockoff guitars and I was pretty impressed. A customer at our shop owned two Gibson Black Beauty guitars, then bought a LP 50th anniversary copy, he said the copy (which cost him something like £250) was better than the originals.

I think the laws regarding this kind of stuff is that it's legal to sell so long as the shop's not passing it off as the original product, but the manufacturer is in the wrong for copying (though as has been said, they're not so concerned about a few laws in China). I'm quite possibly wrong though.[/quote]

Copyright infringement is both a civil and criminal offence. If the copyright owner wants to protect their copyright they can issue a cease and desist to stores selling the item - this happened when MCA took Charly Records to the cleaners over ownership of the Chess label. MCA issued injunctions against all record shops that didn't remove all the Charly material from their stock. IIRCC the stores had to take the financial loss as well. Also, customs would impound these if they spotted them.

[KevB]

I thought Rickenbacker were pretty hot on this kind of thing, if they try to sell them outside of China I'd imagine John Hall's minions will be on it like a shot.

[ednaplate]

I'm interested in all the responses here. Ironically, when logging on just now there was a tangtrade popup/link or whatever they're called next to the Hartke add on the homepage. We're being infiltrated.

I do agree with one of the posters about the quality of Gibson logos at the moment. They are pretty appalling. Why is this being allowed to happen?