J & P Bass copies

[ARGH]

Ok,this has been going on for years now,and I understand the 'What the eyes dont see ,the engineer dont judge" answer,but why spend 3k+ on a Fenderesque or straight bodystyle copy,when you could just get the real thing,and spend 2-300 quid on new guts for it,or parts replacement the lot for the same price?

Given in some peoples eyes that Fenders creations are abysmal,for one or more reasons.

[Buzz]

It's all in the options innit.

Woods, neck dimensions, non standard parts etc...


Sure you could get something like a Fender MIA, then spend a few hundred upgrading the electrics and hardware, but what if the neck just isn't [i]right[/i] or you fancy a nonstandard shape.

Handcrafted items normally have much higher levels of QA as well.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Buzz

[birdy]

A good question and one that has potentially a lot of answers. In my opinion, generally, you get what you pay for. The 3K+ bass will play and sound better than a £300 one as a rule of thumb. It probably won't sound 10 times or even twice as good but there will be some difference that people feel justified in spending the extra money on.

You could draw similar parallels with cars, tennis rackets etc. I guess that you can spend £20 or £2000 on a tennis racket and to most people the difference would be relatively insignificant but to some people they would be prepared to pay the extra even for a perceived 1% better product.

I think I personally feel better when playing a more expensive bass and more inclined to pick it up. Then again I could just be shallow :-)

EDIT: In reference to your original point gutting a bass or replacing parts won't turn a MIM jazz into a USA Lakland or a Sadowsky whatever you do. Sure you can improve it but its all about degrees of improvement and what is important to the player. For what it's worth the difference in money that you need to spend to see an improvement isn't worth it unless you can afford it because as has been posted before a great player will sound great on a £50 bass!


Steve

Edited December 23, 2007 by birdy

[SJA]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good[/url]

[umph]

the woods on most fenders up to a grand are the same and the necks i know because i researched this ;< i did up my squire with second hand stuff and stuff from ebay and it cost me £80 and it feels/plays like some basses over a grand that i've played ;o

[bass_ferret]

What do you do if you think a J is too thin and a P is too thick. I got Bernie Goodfellow to make me an in-betweenie. I have played some nice fenders but none that really compare.

[Sean]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='108607' date='Dec 23 2007, 04:36 PM']What do you do if you think a J is too thin and a P is too thick.[/quote]

Stingray?

[Waldo]

[quote name='Sean' post='108695' date='Dec 23 2007, 08:16 PM']Stingray? [/quote]

Good answer!

[tauzero]

[quote name='ARGH' post='108439' date='Dec 23 2007, 10:00 AM']Ok,this has been going on for years now,and I understand the 'What the eyes dont see ,the engineer dont judge" answer,but why spend 3k+ on a Fenderesque or straight bodystyle copy,when you could just get the real thing,and spend 2-300 quid on new guts for it,or parts replacement the lot for the same price?[/quote]
I don't understand the point of buying a bass that looks like a Fender for multiples of the price - either buy a Fender for Fender prices or buy a bass that doesn't look like a Fender (so people will realise it's a bit special) for a lot more. Surely the main point of buying a copy is that you pay less than what you'd pay for an original?

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='108607' date='Dec 23 2007, 04:36 PM']What do you do if you think a J is too thin and a P is too thick.[/quote]


[quote name='Sean' post='108695' date='Dec 23 2007, 08:16 PM']Stingray? [/quote]

Never liked 'Rays. Played a few over the years.

[mcgraham]

Personally, I like the fact there are upper range models that feels the same as the instrument I'm most comfortable on. They look 'the same', they feel 'the same', they sound somewhat similar but are their own sound. However I'm of the mind that you can get a great bass for next to nothing. I got to play several Sadowskys up in Glasgow in August time, they sounded wonderful, felt great, clarity was excellent, weight and construction felt just so... however... so does my Geddy, in fact, so does any decently put together AND setup jazz I've played.

Mark

P.S. Whilst talking about 'is the sound worth it?' if you guys haven't done so already, I recommend checking out the blindfold tests on Talkbass on various basses, there's one of a Sadowsky vs a Godin, it was recorded in a mix, but was loud enough to hear it's nuances. There were differences but they weren't that prominent (IMO), I couldn't hear them until a little bit into the song. And at the end of the day, I preferred the Godin by quite a significant margin! Go figure.

[bass_ferret]

Well my GB's are not copies of Fenders, rather inspired by Fender.



Like you say its down to personal taste but I have never played another fretless that comes close to singing the way mine does. Its also a matter of personal choice. I think my GB's will be loads better than your Geddy but thats my opinion but also why I chose to spend my money on having them made.

Other people may chose to spend their money on a 9 string monstrosity - thats their choice.

[nick]

[quote name='umph' post='108589' date='Dec 23 2007, 03:59 PM']the woods on most fenders up to a grand are the same and the necks i know because i researched this ;< i did up my squire with second hand stuff and stuff from ebay and it cost me £80 and it feels/plays like some basses over a grand that i've played ;o[/quote]

My old Tokai is streets ahead in playability, feel etc than most of the Fenders I've tried to date (a fair few)

[ARGH]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='108822' date='Dec 24 2007, 10:17 AM']Well my GB's are not copies of Fenders, rather inspired by Fender.



Like you say its down to personal taste but I have never played another fretless that comes close to singing the way mine does. Its also a matter of personal choice. I think my GB's will be loads better than your Geddy but thats my opinion but also why I chose to spend my money on having them made.

Other people may chose to spend their money on a 9 string monstrosity - thats their choice.[/quote]


But what is the quantifiable price of Labour,You've paid good money for essentially,a boltneck lookalike of a massproduced instrument.

Ok,the supa P's,and J's,2 octave necks,active systems,eqs whatever...but 2-3k for Ebony/Maple/Alder/Rosewood with a gloss finish and a boltneck,and few bits of wire and batteries,it just feels to me that some makers are just taking this piss,for essentially not really doing much in regard to design or any REAL work,besides construction.

This of course depends on price,and then what do you believe is that value.

Ive played Rays....like some ,not so much others

Edited December 26, 2007 by ARGH

[Finbar]

Besides construction? As if a poorly constructed instrument and a well constructed instrument don't feel totally different?

I also think that this thread is basically saying 'unless you only spent £300 on a bass, you're dumb', or words to that effect. I wouldn't agree with what some people have bought, or for the prices they've paid. People would probably think the same of me. But I would never tell someone what they should or should not be spending their own money on. Unless they asked

I think something people forget is that something is worth exactly what someone will pay for it, nothing more and nothing less.

[thumbo]

[quote name='ARGH' post='108439' date='Dec 23 2007, 10:00 AM']Ok,this has been going on for years now,and I understand the 'What the eyes dont see ,the engineer dont judge" answer,but why spend 3k+ on a Fenderesque or straight bodystyle copy,when you could just get the real thing,and spend 2-300 quid on new guts for it,or parts replacement the lot for the same price?[/quote]

I don't know if I'm completely missing the point here, but isn't the answer to this question simply because there are many people that much prefer the Fender-alike basses that other companies offer?

My argument is that if you're gonna buy a Fender and change loads of the parts, why not buy a Shuker, Lakland or whatever suits your requirements best. The price won't be far off the same if you're going to spend "2-300 on new guts". But hey, maybe the Fender logo on the headstock is the key requirement for a lot of musicians?

[bass_ferret]

As the guy who built my bass said - "I can put some strings and pups on a table and get a noise out of it - but it would be a c*** to play". Some people are prepared to do that with ironing boards and call them ERB's. You pay your money.....

[ARGH]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='109925' date='Dec 27 2007, 04:35 PM']As the guy who built my bass said - "I can put some strings and pups on a table and get a noise out of it - but it would be a c*** to play". Some people are prepared to do that with ironing boards and call them ERB's. You pay your money.....[/quote]

Is this a direct quote from Bernie Goodfellow...In relation to this subject.....or a lie to suit a purpose?

Y'see John we are back on the old debate again of you vs me on the ERB question? Which has or had ,as a debate or question, no place on this thread?

If you take the price of parts,and whats actually being made,and the ACTUAL time to build it,finish it etc etc. The price is unjustafiable...In fact ANYTHING 4 string bar that Ritter with all the diamonds and leaf on it,over 2k for ANY boltneck 4 string,standard wood + active system seems silly to pay.

Its not a dig at ANYONES guitar in perticular (Unlike what has just been said about mine...its alright I have a thick skin,I just know Im right) or maker,but the time and labour involved,inclusive of the parts.....


Seems pointless,making a lookalike,for that amount of cash,but hey engineers are strange suspicious fellows. I suppose its the price of safety in the familier?

Edited December 27, 2007 by ARGH

[thumbo]

[ARGH]

[quote name='thumbo' post='109984' date='Dec 27 2007, 06:56 PM'][/quote]

Ahh Jims got the Neckwood for the 11 I see!!!

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='109925' date='Dec 27 2007, 04:35 PM']As the guy who built my bass said - "I can put some strings and pups on a table and get a noise out of it - but it would be a c*** to play". Some people are prepared to do that with ironing boards and call them ERB's. You pay your money.....[/quote]


[quote name='ARGH' post='109983' date='Dec 27 2007, 06:54 PM']Is this a direct quote from Bernie Goodfellow...In relation to this subject.....or a lie to suit a purpose?[/quote]
The bit in the quotation marks was a direct quote - thats what they mean. It was no used in the context of ERB's though - that was just me winding you up

My pair cost me just over 3k - I think it was money well spent cos it was what I wanted. You got what you wanted. Everyone is happy Although I did not start a thread asking why anyone would pay good money for an ironing board sith strings.

[ARGH]

Yeah

Bilbo did that and we know how that ended

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='ARGH' post='110065' date='Dec 27 2007, 10:41 PM']Yeah

Bilbo did that and we know how that ended[/quote]
Sorry Ross - you lost me there mate.

[Freuds_Cat]

well, personality and preference differences aside boys, Brian West here in Adelaide makes custom basses with the price based on materials plus his time and expertise. That means a bass that is usually twice the quality (at least) and definitely less than the retail price of a 'Genuine' Fender MIA Labeled bass.
Cargill in Melbourne are very much in the same paddock.

As a few ppl here know my main working bass is a heavily modified 72 Fender Jazz so its not like I've a vested interest either way. I agree with ARGH it would be less than half the instrument without the mods.
I've played a lot of different basses over the years, live and studio. From Rays, Alembics, Ricks, Warwicks, Sadowsky, Maton and even a Ken Smith Burner.

The most I'm prepared to pay for a bass (or recommend that anyone pays) is no more than £1200 tops ever! and that would be an extreme case of OMG daaaarling where have you been all my life.

Seriously the difference between my SX (Which I paid 35 quid for) and my Fender (valued recently at £1400) is ridiculously small. And so is the feel and sound. At least with the SX I didnt have to replace the pups, bridge, pots/knobs etc.

Best quality for the cash is IMHO Cargill and Brian West.
I do understand that a lot of the custom builders in the UK and US seem to have attained some kind of rock star status thereby making it possible for the Cult (Brand) of personality to cause an inflated price. Bottom line .... that sux. And I'm glad that the guys here still earn an honest buck for an honest days work.

As far as the whole 'you get what you pay for' scenario goes, when it comes to basses that is so far from the truth that I wont bore you with the rant. (insert assumed rant here)

[ped]

At the end of the day there are far worse ways to spend the odd grand or so - as long as it is on something special to you personally and something as personal as a bass guitar then who cares what it looks like? sometimes tastes in things cannot be explained down to anything that can be expressed across a message board.

Agreed, some of the prices commanded by 'Jazz copies' seem a little high to me (now playing a quite different type of bass which to my eyes is far more 'engineered' and 'innovative' etc) but then if I look into my past I have owned several and still like 'em.