Customs and used basses?

[project_c]

I've bought a somewhat battered but excellent sounding '83 MIA Fender Precision in NYC - found it on Craigslist, so no receipt - and I need to bring it home to London next weekend. What do I tell customs? I'll pay tax on it (if I must..) but I have no proof of purchase, so how is the value worked out? Anyone have any ideas how it works with second hand privately bought stuff?

[thisnameistaken]

Personally I wouldn't declare it. But if they do decide to tax you then I suppose you'll just have to tell them the price you paid, and if they dispute the value then... well, they've got guns and you presumably haven't.

[project_c]

Thanks for the reply - I've read that if you fail to declare stuff, and get stopped, customs can decide to "seize and impound" your stuff - something I'd rather avoid. I didn't pay a fortune for the bass (around £500) and would rather pay the tax than take the risk. The bass is going to be in it's original case in my hand as I walk through customs, so it's not something I can hide easily.

The problem is providing proof of value without proof of purchase - I paid the guy in cash, so I have no proof whatsoever. I had one thought, which is to go to a couple of stores out here and get them to give me a written quote for the value of the bass - do you reckon this would be acceptable as proof of value at customs? I'm concerned about just telling them how much I paid, because without proof, they will blatantly just assume I'm lying.

[RhysP]

Just tell them the truth - that it was a private sale so you have no receipt.
Tell them honestly how much you paid for it but don't try & con them - The customs people at Heathrow & Gatwick aren't stupid when it comes to the value of instruments, especially popular ones like Fender & Gibson.

[project_c]

[quote name='RhysP' post='954290' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:05 AM']Just tell them the truth - that it was a private sale so you have no receipt.
Tell them honestly how much you paid for it but don't try & con them - The customs people at Heathrow & Gatwick aren't stupid when it comes to the value of instruments, especially popular ones like Fender & Gibson.[/quote]

So customs will have a database they can refer to to find the value of the bass if no proof of purchase is provided? I guess that would make sense. I am intending to be 100% honest about what I paid for it, I think it's about the right amount given the condition of the bass, I just don't want customs to have a problem with me having no proof of purchase.

[PURPOLARIS]

I would just walk through with it, my son's brought his guitar over with him to visit me a few times and they never stopped him. Musicians carry their guitars with them all the time at airports. I understand you wanting to be honest but your guitar has probably had enough tax paid on it through the years.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='954293' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:28 AM']I would just walk through with it, my son's brought his guitar over with him to visit me a few times and they never stopped him. Musicians carry their guitars with them all the time at airports. I understand you wanting to be honest but your guitar has probably had enough tax paid on it through the years.[/quote]

That's where I was coming from. I've carried a couple of guitars back from the USA before and nobody's batted an eyelid at them.

[project_c]

[quote name='PURPOLARIS' post='954293' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:28 AM']I would just walk through with it, my son's brought his guitar over with him to visit me a few times and they never stopped him. Musicians carry their guitars with them all the time at airports. I understand you wanting to be honest but your guitar has probably had enough tax paid on it through the years.[/quote]

Let's say I do this - if they do happen to pick me out, wouldn't that mean I'd be in the sh!t? I can pretend to be stupid / forgetful / ignorant about laws ("I thought I wouldn't need to declare it as it's old and knackered" etc) but I doubt that would wash with customs tbh. Best case scenario, I walk and nobody notices, worst case, confiscated bass and a criminal record, no?

[PURPOLARIS]

[quote name='project_c' post='954295' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:41 AM']Let's say I do this - if they do happen to pick me out, wouldn't that mean I'd be in the sh!t? I can pretend to be stupid / forgetful / ignorant about laws ("I thought I wouldn't need to declare it as it's old and knackered" etc) but I doubt that would wash with customs tbh. Best case scenario, I walk and nobody notices, worst case, confiscated bass and a criminal record, no?[/quote]


The fact that your Bass is old will help you big time. It's not like you've went over to the USA to buy a brand new Bass and bring it back here trying to dodge import tax on it. You've bought a second (3rd/4th/5th) hand guitar that as you say looks battered. It's one of your tools of trade, how do they know that you haven't had since new and only paid £200 for it back then

Golfers are forever taking their golf clubs abroad when they go on holiday, it's the same thing.

They will never consficate your Bass, there's a lot worse that goes on at customs than someone bringing a well used guitar into the country. Worse case scenario is that you'll have to pay tax on it but I really doubt you will. Just walk straight through the green channel and try not to look guilty

[matski]

How would customs be able to PROVE that you have just bought this bass and not had it for years, anyway? Just walk on through. Confidently.

If I were you, I'd be more worried about the bass making the trip safely - I reckon the airline will not allow it to go as hand luggage - from personal experience, airlines tend to let you board the plane with a bass in a gigbag, but if it's in a hard case it usually has to go in the luggage hold of the plane.

There's a sticky/pinned thread on here about flying with instruments as I recall - have a read through that. You'd be much more gutted to arrive in London with a battered/destroyed/'disappeared' bass than having to pay £100 in tax, wouldn't you?

Edited September 13, 2010 by matski

[matski]

Found the thread about flying with instruments for ya:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41208"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41208[/url]

[Marky L]

Yeah, go for green and don't panic. If you get stopped then if I was you I would plead ignorance. Why shoud you know about duty and customs costs? You were in the US on holiday, saw an absolute bargain of a used old bass and couldn't
miss out on a great deal. What's so unbelievable about that?

I would just add try not to look too much like a stoned frazzled rock n roller though, that may draw more attention than a guitar case and therefore the possibility for a great bust for customs!!

[El Bajo]

Just don't hide the drugs in the cavity, first place they look and they may ruin your bass looking.

[bassace]

I bought a new double bass from USA some years ago. I met the proprietor's wife at Gatwick and she walked through with [i]two[/i] bloody great flight cases (actually had a baggage handler carry them for her). They came in as personal posessions. So bring your Fender in with confidence.

[misrule]

[quote name='project_c' post='954295' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:41 AM']Let's say I do this - if they do happen to pick me out, wouldn't that mean I'd be in the sh!t? I can pretend to be stupid / forgetful / ignorant about laws ("I thought I wouldn't need to declare it as it's old and knackered" etc) but I doubt that would wash with customs tbh. Best case scenario, I walk and nobody notices, worst case, confiscated bass and a criminal record, no?[/quote]
If I were you, I'd go through the red channel and declare it. They're usually so surprised to find somebody honest that they give you a break -- or, often, there's nobody in the red channel so you quietly walk on through.

Customs people aren't interested in how old the bass is nor how many owners it's had. They tax you on its value -- either from the bill of sale or their estimate. They know all about musical instruments and can easily look up what they don't know while keeping you waiting in the interview room.

The "confiscated bass and criminal record" thing happened to me once -- though it was a g****r that time. I ended up buying my own stuff back from the Queen before it was auctioned off.

I wouldn't mess with customs -- they know all the tricks and have too many nasty powers.

Cheers

Mark

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='misrule' post='954444' date='Sep 13 2010, 10:16 AM']If I were you, I'd go through the red channel and declare it. They're usually so surprised to find somebody honest that they give you a break -- or, often, there's nobody in the red channel so you quietly walk on through.
Customs people aren't interested in how old the bass is nor how many owners it's had. They tax you on its value -- either from the bill of sale or their estimate. They know all about musical instruments and can easily look up what they don't know while keeping you waiting in the interview room.
The "confiscated bass and criminal record" thing happened to me once -- though it was a g****r that time. I ended up buying my own stuff back from the Queen before it was auctioned off.
I wouldn't mess with customs -- they know all the tricks and have too many nasty powers...
Cheers
Mark[/quote]
+1 from me.
If I were you I'd not risk it just go through the Red channel...

JTB

[lanark]

[quote name='project_c' post='954295' date='Sep 13 2010, 06:41 AM']Let's say I do this - if they do happen to pick me out, wouldn't that mean I'd be in the sh!t? I can pretend to be stupid / forgetful / ignorant about laws ("I thought I wouldn't need to declare it as it's old and knackered" etc) but I doubt that would wash with customs tbh. Best case scenario, I walk and nobody notices, worst case, confiscated bass and a criminal record, no?[/quote]

But how on earth will they prove that this old bass didn't go with you when you left the country? I could understand your worries if the bass was in a box, bag and had the price tag attached. However, I honestly can't see any chance of them stopping you unless you're looking particularly shifty - and if that were the case, I doubt they'll be imagining they'll be finding contraband used guitars when they perform the cavity search.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='lanark' post='954482' date='Sep 13 2010, 10:44 AM']But how on earth will they prove that this old bass didn't go with you when you left the country? I could understand your worries if the bass was in a box, bag and had the price tag attached. However, I honestly can't see any chance of them stopping you unless you're looking particularly shifty - and if that were the case, I doubt they'll be imagining they'll be finding contraband used guitars when they perform the cavity search.[/quote]

+1. I mean they can hardly tax you for taking your bass on holiday, can they? How are they going to prove that you didn't have it when you left to go to the US?

[misrule]

[quote name='lanark' post='954482' date='Sep 13 2010, 10:44 AM']But how on earth will they prove that this old bass didn't go with you when you left the country?[/quote]
They will ask to see a UK receipt or proof that you took it out of the country, like their own export documents.

They don't have to prove anything. They confiscate what they like and keep it until you prove to them it's exempt from tax.

Cheers

Mark

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='misrule' post='954508' date='Sep 13 2010, 11:10 AM']They will ask to see a UK receipt or proof that you took it out of the country, like their own export documents...[/quote]

+1
I had to take some work stuff abroad out of Heathrow once and there's a HMRC office at the airport where they physically check the stuff over and generate a document/receipt for you, and records for them, with all the details on it so that you don't have to pay Import Duty + VAT on the way back in.

JTB

[misrule]

By the way, if it helps the OP, the UK customs helpline is 0845 010 9000.

I've called before about taking a bass abroard and they say it would be classed as a personal possession "so you shouldn't have a problem" bringing it back into the country. But to avoid any doubt, they said you could get a receipt from customs at the UK airport before boarding your flight.

Obviously, the OP bought his there so that won't apply.

As to getting a valuation from a US music shop, customs have in the past been very suspicious because stores used to write them up for people who planned to avoid paying tax and duty. I'd gather as much evidence as you can from the sale -- like a printout of the Craigslist advert, traveller's cheque stubs or receipts to show you converted £500 to dollars for the purchase, plus the seller's address and phone number, if he's happy with that.

Cheers

Mark

Edited September 13, 2010 by misrule

[franzbassist]

Just go ahead and declare it. One thought though, is the ad still on Craigslist? If it is you could just print a copy of that out and show them. Alternatively, contacting the seller and having him confirm the purhcase and price is a good idea.

Cheers

Gareth

[project_c]

thanks for all the replies.

Customs can easily prove that I bought the bass in the USA by looking at my luggage records for the journey out there - I didn't have a Fender case with me as part of my luggage on the way out - I'm fairly sure airlines or the check in staff keep a record of this and customs will have access to it.

[quote name='misrule' post='954530' date='Sep 13 2010, 10:31 AM']As to getting a valuation from a US music shop, customs have in the past been very suspicious because stores used to write them up for people who planned to avoid paying tax and duty. I'd gather as much evidence as you can from the sale -- like a printout of the Craigslist advert, traveller's cheque stubs or receipts to show you converted £500 to dollars for the purchase, plus the seller's address and phone number, if he's happy with that.[/quote]

This is what I was thinking too - the only thing I still have is the record of the email conversation I had with the guy prior to buying his bass, and an ATM cash withdrawal which shows up on my bank statement for more or less the correct amount on the day I bought the bass. The price is not mentioned anywhere unfortunately. The Craigslist ad went down ages ago, I've been out here for a little while and got the bass over 3 weeks ago.

Whilst I would be really tempted to walk through customs without declaring the bass, I'm not sure if it's worth the anxiety - declaring it would be a straightforward thing, as long as they don't get weird about the proof of purchase thing.

[Big_Stu]

I think you'll be OK with that unless you get an absolute git! Most of them are happier to have an "Ooh let's see what you've found!" kind of look. I'd just be upfront, walk thru red & see what they have to say. Have any evidence at all that you have on you & just be honest. They do know their stuff so it's the only way.
I heard a story a long time ago (might even be in Ian Hunters "Diary of" book) about a guy who bought a semi-acoustic in the USA, tried to tell customs that it was a cheapo Gibson blah de blah & the customs guy said,
"Open up, let's have a look ........... no it isn't! That 's a 335 dot! That's be £££ch-ching please!"

[misrule]

When I was nicked they had a huge, leather-bound book listing makes and serial numbers. They were able to tell me that my guitar was made within the last three months and my story that I bought it via the newspaper classifieds was unlikely.

B*stards

BTW, if you declare it they're very unlikely to question your estimate of its value. They'll know a rough figure anyway but they'll probably trust you given that you've come clean.

Cheers

Mark

Edited September 14, 2010 by misrule