A volume issue

[Chadderz]

Hey guys, I was hoping you could advise me on an issue that has recently come to my attention.

Before we get started, I'll hold my hands up and say I know very little about how amps work, so please try not to get too technical on me

I am currently playing through an Ashdown 300 watt combo with a single 15" speaker. Thus far, it has been more than adequate for practise and the occasional jam. However, my band has recently started playing some local gigs (hurrah!) and I find I am struggling to be heard over a drummer, a Blackstar halfstack and a Marshall. My Ashdown combo has another jack in the back for an extension cab. My question is, therefore, will an extra cab increase the available volume? Will it make a large difference or a negligable one? Or should I just bite the bullet and buy a more powerful amp?

The floor is yours, gentlemen.

[steve-soar]

Hi there,the 300 combo will drive another 8 ohm cab, the speaker inside the combo will be 8 ohms. Look for a 4x10 or another 15" cab, rated at 8 ohms and enjoy the extra volume.
More speakers = more volume.
2x 8 ohm cabs will take the full 300 watts of power out of the combos amp.

Edited September 13, 2010 by steve-soar

[JTUK]

The amp probably needs to run at 4ohms for full power so an extn cab will make the thing louder, if that is the case

You need to make sure both cabs are 8 ohms though...

I wouldn't be surprised if you were to struggle against two gtrs and half stacks.... I can see this is only the start of your problems unless they know anything about volume control which most gtrs don't, IME.

[Lozz196]

With just a 1x15 you`re up against it with surface area of air being pushed. Adding another speaker cab, as well as enabling your amp to work at full power, will also get you pushing more air. Classic stack for bass with plenty of power - 1x15 & 4x10. From there, the "bigness" of your sound should be enough to cope with the two guitarists. Plenty of good 4x10 cabs about, tho always difficult trying them out in a band situation. A workaround may be, depending on how/where you rehearse, is ask to rent 2 or 3 different make of cabs from the rehearsal place, then you`ll have an idea of what yr after. As mentioned tho, make sure they`re 8 ohms.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Chadderz' post='955252' date='Sep 13 2010, 02:32 PM']. My question is, therefore, will an extra cab increase the available volume?[/quote]
An identical cab will increase output by 6dB. That's the equivalent of a quadrupling of power.
[quote]Classic stack for bass with plenty of power - 1x15 & 4x10.[/quote]Classic and popular, but a poor match up. If one must mix drivers a 2x10 and 1x15 are a far better match. Keep the impedance of the two the same.

[stevebasshead]

This sounds like one of two things to me.

If you're struggling to hear yourself onstage try tilting your combo so the speaker is pointing at your head. Chances are on most pub stages you're right beside your amp and your sound is wafting past your knees! Or get it up on a pub table, but get some grippy rubber matting like the stuff you put on car dashboards to keep mobiles etc in place otherwise you amp may vibrate off

OR...if it's the case that you can't be heard out in the audience then yes, follow Bill's advice above, or get your bass put through the PA.

[markstuk]

Listen to Bill...

As someone who rehearses with a MAG300 15 Combo I might be able to add some more detail...

The MAG 300 only makes 180W into the internal (8 Ohm) speaker and just over 300W when you plug an external 8 Ohm Cab for a total impedence of 4 Ohm. From personal experience with an external 15" cab I can confirm that two speakers are louder than one. I've also replaced the internal Blue line driver with an Eminence Kappalite 3515C which although an improvement, in retrospect was not the most cost effective thing I've ever done :-)

Although moving cone surface area is important (the 4 x 10 argument) speaker cone excursion is also important (XMAX) as well as cab design (ported vs sealed for instance). Also most 4 x 10's are bleeding heavy... Look in other threads on here for a discussion on VD and cab design...

Cheers


Mark

[4-string-thing]

You have my sympathy matey!

The band I play in has a loud drummer, a guitarist with a 200w Blackstar half stack and a guitarist with a mesa 2x12 combo plus extension cab (he has also just bought a Blackstar)

My Ashdown 300w head through 2 15" cabs couldn't really compete. I had to add a bit of PA support. I now plan to use my Acoustic head alongside the Ashdown to give me a total approaching 500w.

Its been said that adding more speakers will add extra power, it does if you go from 8 ohms to 4, but it doesn't seem to add extra volume (or loudness, if you prefer) I'm afraid to say that you will probably need to buy a bigger amp, or a much more sensitive cab to get loud enough.

Best alternative though, is to point out to your guitarists that they can turn down a bit and still get "their sound"

Good luck!

[Truckstop]

I'd imagine also you may have a definition problem with just a single 15" speaker. You may already have enough volume, but certain frequencies just might not be cutting though. I wouldn't bother buying another amp without trying out different cab configs. first.
I'm jumping on the 'get an external 4x10/2x10 cab' bandwagon. Have a look around on the For Sale threads, there's bound to be something there that'll catch your eye. I'm pretty sure I saw a Mesa 2x10 floating around in there?
And yes, make sure it's 8ohm!

Truckstop

[chris_b]

No tech stuff here!

If you like the sound you're getting, just get another Ashdown 15 (8 ohm) cab to match the one you have. As has already been said, your amp will run louder, the 2 cabs together will be louder and you'll hear more of your bass as the top cab will be nearer your ears.

If it was me, I would get a good 8 ohm 410, which I'd run as an extension cab to your combo. I'd then save up for a 300-500 watt head.

[markstuk]

Just to add - although a second 8 ohm cab will make the most of your MAG300 and there will be more speaker to move more air as well - I only use mine for practice - for gigs I use an Ashdown RPM-1/APM1000 (1KW power amp) with a Warwick Terminator cab (2x15, 2x10 plus horn) not because it's that much louder, but because it sounds more dynamic and open...

[Lozz196]

Another easy thing to consider, but may be difficult to put into operation, either by discussion or when the guitarists aren`t looking (you`ll know which is more likely to work), drop the bass on their amps by 1, eg if they were on 7 before, drop `em to 6. Too often, you can find that the bass can`t be heard cos the guitars are doing the bass as well, and yr competing with their distorted, compressed many strings and speakers, with your one string/speaker. Another cab will help, but adjustment of eq from all of you could have a major impact on this issue.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='960240' date='Sep 18 2010, 05:54 AM']Best alternative though, is to point out to your guitarists that they can turn down a bit and still get "their sound"

Good luck![/quote]Two points. First, 'getting all of the watts out of my amp' isn't what gives most of the increase in output seen with using more cabs. It's the added sensitivity that does that. The quest for added watts is very much an exercise in acoustical engineering masturbation.
Second, the same sensitivity gains applies to using multiple drivers. Guitar'd players with their 4x12s run 6dB louder than would a 1x12 driven with the same amp. If they need to push both amp and driver to a certain level to 'get my sound' without being obnoxiously loud they can just get rid of those stupid behemoths and use a sensible 1x12. But that wouldn't look nearly as cool, so forget about sensibility.

And they wonder why we call them guitar'd players.

[gelfin]

When I want to be "heard" I use GK Fusion 550 into GK 2x10 and 4x10 linked to an Ashdown 1000w bass magnifier into a trace 1x15 and 4x10.
This gives plenty of headroom and the ability to swamp the gtrs if they over do it.

[Mr. Foxen]

I found a new solution, own all the amps (in the world ideally, working on that, but the ones the guitarist is using) so they have to do what you say.

[4-string-thing]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='962862' date='Sep 21 2010, 12:14 AM']I found a new solution, own all the amps (in the world ideally, working on that, but the ones the guitarist is using) so they have to do what you say.[/quote]

Or you could do what my predecessor did, throw a hissy fit and leave the band during a rehearsal shouting "you play too loud"

Mind you, he did turn up at a biker rally gig wearing a parka!

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='960440' date='Sep 18 2010, 02:53 PM']Another easy thing to consider, but may be difficult to put into operation, either by discussion or when the guitarists aren`t looking (you`ll know which is more likely to work), drop the bass on their amps by 1, eg if they were on 7 before, drop `em to 6. Too often, you can find that the bass can`t be heard cos the guitars are doing the bass as well, and yr competing with their distorted, compressed many strings and speakers, with your one string/speaker. Another cab will help, but adjustment of eq from all of you could have a major impact on this issue.[/quote]

This is an excellent thinking-like-a-sound-man type point. I often used to find when doing gigs that if I could persuade the guitarists to drop the bass on their amps it would really help, too many of them would get a sound that was chunky and full in isolation forgetting that a band achieves that sound (but better) as an ensemble. Too many bedroom tweakers! (The same people often really overdo distortion, where less really is more)

[Marvin]

As someone who has spent an inordinate amount of time on Bill Fitzmaurice's web site researching a Jack10, his advice is absolutely sound (lovely pun). So I'd go with what he says.