A severe timing issue for intermediate player

[mrpink1991]

Hello chaps (and chap-ettes!).

I am new here and have made a discovery. I've had one of those moments that many musicians talk about. It has come to my attention that I have been doing something very bad...

My chops are good, my theory is above average and I'm off to University to study for my Music B.A on Monday (papping myself!).

My slap technique is good but, thinking about it, I've only ever played with live bands with this tool and never along to any records in full. I have only ever worked out passages and glued it all together on my own and so now I'm not so sure my slap is cool.

I was playing along to Dive Into the Sun by Level 42. Why? I have no idea but I just decided to do it and my timing was all over the place like a mad woman's sh*t. I went through it about 4 times and things actually got worse - I fell behind two beats at one point! My fingerstyle is tight (I checked it after my realisation today) so things are fine there. I proceeded to try Love Games. This is a tune I have played for years, jamming it out with my band and things are fine. Once I played it against the track today, I had the same problem.

Is it that I'm playing uncontrollably in front of and behind the beat in 16th note slap and when I do it with a live band they earhole my timing and go with me? This would explain my problem with playing along to these kind of records.

How the heck do I sort this out? Very annoyed at myself and I really wanted this sorted by Monday!

Cheers people - here's to many more posts!

Edited September 18, 2010 by mrpink1991

[ElCapitan]

[quote name='mrpink1991' post='960853' date='Sep 18 2010, 11:33 PM']How the heck do I sort this out?[/quote]


Stop listening to Level 42.

[chris_b]

Count 1,2,3,4 very loudly.

[Fat Rich]

Set a click going and play it really slow, and then even slower? Not familiar with the tune but try going right down to 50 bpm and see if you can nail it at every tempo in between 50 to whatever the song is at.

[Doddy]

Metronomes are your answer,although a drum machine is even better. Set it up slowly and play along accurately. Playing it accurately and correctly is the most important part- Speed will come naturally over time.
One thing is for sure though.....It won't be sorted out by Monday.

[RhysP]

[quote name='mrpink1991' post='960853' date='Sep 19 2010, 12:33 AM']My slap technique is good.......[/quote]
How can your slap technique be good if you can't play in time?

[mrpink1991]

[quote name='RhysP' post='961048' date='Sep 19 2010, 11:44 AM']How can your slap technique be good if you can't play in time?[/quote]

Thanks for the replys everyone. What I mean is - my slap chops are good. It seems to be only continuous 16th note slap - anything else is not a problem and that why I have used the two L42 examples in my original post.

I shall get to work with a metronome. Are there any drum machines anyone can recommend?

[Faithless]

I'm not sure if drum machine is better than metronome if you want to work on your [i]time[/i].

Drum machine, as there are many more 'sounds' going from it rather than from metronome, can give you a false sense of security, in terms of time feeling/flow..

Drum machines are cool if you're jamming/looking for ideas, but when it comes to timing practice, I'd go for metronome.

And, if you do, don't set that thing on 120, 160,220 or other crazy bmp's!!

Start setting it on low bpm's, like 30, or 40, so that you can play 4 notes per one click or something like that..
Yep, it will be harder in the beginning to play with metronome clicking 30pbm, but, believe me, it will benefit in future..

Of course, you can set it on 120 (4x more) rather than 30, and it will feel much more 'safer', but it's not going to get you anywhere. Metronome won't develop time for you, you have to do it yourself, it's only there to guide you.

Faith

[RhysP]

[quote name='mrpink1991' post='961084' date='Sep 19 2010, 12:17 PM']Thanks for the replys everyone. What I mean is - my slap chops are good. It seems to be only continuous 16th note slap - anything else is not a problem and that why I have used the two L42 examples in my original post.[/quote]

Are you using your left hand much or are you relying on your right (assuming you are left handed)?
A lot of Mark Kings fast slap technique is down to a syncopated thing that's as much left hand as right.

[Hector]

Building on what Faithless was saying, I remember hearing about an awesome practice technique, where you play a simple groove (in your case a slap groove I guess) along with a metronome. Start with the metronome on beats 1,2,3 and 4, then on just 1 and 3, then on the 1 of every bar, then every second bar, then every 4th, 8th and 16th bar (this works if you have electronic metronome, but you could do some of this with an old-school one). If you don't have a metronome, I'd recommend getting one! I wouldn't say a drum machine is any better or worse than a metronome, since they both provide a steady source of time.

This is a wicked-sick exercise, because, unlike playing along with a metronome, the timing really comes from you and you just have that one click every once in a blue moon to show if you're really locked in.

I also remember a lesson I saw in Bass Player a while back, where you play a groove, but shift the metronome back/forward a 16th, through all the beats until it makes it back to being bang on beat one (i.e. [b]1[/b]e&a2e&a3e&a4e&a, 1[b]e[/b]&a2e&a3e&a4e&a, 1e[b]&[/b]a2e&a3e&a4e&a, 1e&[b]a[/b]2e&a3e&a4e&a ). This is a toughie, but it's really worth it.

Also, [url="http://www.johnnycopland.com/?p=671"]this[/url] is a good link for exercises on timing (an a bit of entertaining waffle on relativity!).

Timing/groove is tough to get solid, but as a bassplayer it's really really important. 9 times out of 10, people will rather you groove solidly and play fewer notes than the flash stuff but with scrappy timing. Sorry to sound a bit intense, but it's a real bugbear of mine, to the point where I got really wierd and anal practicing it. Paid off though, as at a session I played a few years ago (at the height of my time obsession), the producer got very weirded out by how precise my timing was - the best compliment I've ever had!

EDIT - Found the video I was talking about, good old Wooten! Has the exercises I was talking about, plus a few other nuggets of wisdom.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Hector

[Faithless]

Gosh.. I was trying out that Victor's exercise on swinging, and setting metronome an eight note before the 1st beat..
And I thought I knew how to swing.. My timing is rubbish, goddamnit!!

I'll really have to pay more attention to timing..

Edited September 19, 2010 by Faithless

[mrpink1991]

Thanks again chaps - for all the relevant replies anyway!

Wooten is a bit good isn't he? Haha.

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that it is a stamina thing you know... When I have slowed with the metronome things seem much, much better. This would also explain why it's the 16ths I have trouble slapping. I know MK uses both hands but you don't associate the fretting hand with timing and groove etc (at least I don't) which is another realisation for me this weekend...

Thanks again everyone!

[Chris2112]

I think sitting down with a metronome on a slow click and getting the basics nailed before trying to syncopate the left hand and right hand is really the place to start, as many have said. It makes me think of when Stuart Hamm said that some things are much harder to play slow than fast, and to demonstrate he played one of the tapping parts from "Country Music" slow and showed just how much more difficult that was!

So in the end, excessive speed just covers up how sloppy you are and disguises your lack of timing and pace. You've got to go back to basics and build it up slowly. Learning things at a slow pace helps too; get to grips with the notes and the space between them and when you play it at full speed it will feel like second nature. I've done this with a lot of Level 42 tunes, for example. Mark can have so many ghost notes and clicks in his lines that you have to slow them right down and work out exactly where they are coming from and get the timing right. Especially if you've got a drummer going at it like Gary Husband!

Edited September 23, 2010 by Chris2112

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='ElCapitan' post='960873' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:11 AM']Stop listening to Level 42.[/quote]

+1

[chris_b]

If you're having a timing problem think more about the number and less about your playing technique.

[TheGreek]

[quote name='Faithless' post='961190' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:16 PM']I'm not sure if drum machine is better than metronome if you want to work on your [i]time[/i].

Drum machine, as there are many more 'sounds' going from it rather than from metronome, can give you a false sense of security, in terms of time feeling/flow..

Drum machines are cool if you're jamming/looking for ideas, but when it comes to timing practice, I'd go for metronome.

And, if you do, don't set that thing on 120, 160,220 or other crazy bmp's!!

Start setting it on low bpm's, like 30, or 40, so that you can play 4 notes per one click or something like that..
Yep, it will be harder in the beginning to play with metronome clicking 30pbm, but, believe me, it will benefit in future..

Of course, you can set it on 120 (4x more) rather than 30, and it will feel much more 'safer', but it's not going to get you anywhere. Metronome won't develop time for you, you have to do it yourself, it's only there to guide you.

Faith[/quote]
Do you know that's the best bit of advice I've heard in ages..I feel almost privileged to have read it!!

[zero9]

[quote name='mrpink1991' post='960853' date='Sep 19 2010, 12:33 AM']a mad woman's sh*t[/quote]

I learned something today (thanks to Urban Dictionary)