Age old dilemma - playability v tone.

[warwickhunt]

I did a 'pair' of gigs last night; me playing with my current band, supported by my band who reformed for the occasion. Seeing as it was a party for a friend and a no pressure gig (though massively enjoyable as everyone was into music and up for it), I took along a bunch of basses to see what felt/sounded best/right; PRS EB IV (Pyramid Gold flats), Bolin NS (DR Sunbeams) & Warwick Streamer Ltd Ed (DR Sunbeams).

I played each bass for a couple of numbers and swapped whenever the guitarist took time-out to change from Les Paul to Strat (less disruption). During the first set I pretty quickly established that the playability (overall feel of the bass hanging and moving around the fingerboard etc.) of the Warwick closely followed by the Bolin were streets ahead of the PRS, which is a traditional shaped/styled Fenderish design BUT on stage the PRS seemed to have a nice old school tone; I was unsure if this was the strings (flats v rounds) or the pups, fingerboard wood, electronics etc etc

However I came off after the first spot and every one I spoke to comment on how good the PRS sounded and how it had a nice 'bright' tone ...it had flats on that have been swapped between 3 other basses and sounded as 'unbright' as an unbright thing in a dark room! Mrs WH even commented that it sounded great in the little bit of string popping that I did in one of the songs (don't worry I didn't try to slap the RHCP with flats it was 'Jack & Diane' John C Mellancamp). People who've seen the band on various occasions even commented that they heard certain things that they'd not noticed I did before (tsk no surprise there then ).

Right! I whipped the flats off the PRS and put them on the Streamer and vice versa, quick word with the Mrs to have a listen to the sound of the bass, then on for the second spot.

Same as first set; feel of the Warwick was slightly better than the Bolin which both felt better than the traditional PRS. Obviously the PRS and Warwick had a different tone now but I had a nagging suspicion the tone of the PRS was carrying better. After the gig it became apparent that out front (no PA support just my Aggie DB12's and Thunderfunk) the tone of the PRS was the flavour of the night. I have to state at this point we are obviously talking opinion here and everyone will have a different one; added to which we aren't talking masses of difference in sound, especially as I could tweak my amp a bit to compensate (which I did btw for the varied outputs) but it certainly left me posing the question about playing bass in a gigging/live setting...

Do I/we play a bass that 'feels' great but is maybe a 95% as good as the tone of a bass that doesn't feel as good OR do we go for the best sounding bass? I'm not asking anyone to make my mind up for me, I've already established in my head what I think and if anyone bothers to comment I'll give my verdict later but for now I wondered what others thought.

[Ou7shined]

For me it's tone all the way. We are the variable in this equation and we have an inherent ability to adapt. We have a duty to the audience to offer the best we can. They don't care if if we find the profile or balance a bit off.
Just because a bass is less comfortable to play than what we are used to doesn't make it impossible to play. I prefer MM/P necks but if the last bass in the world was a super thin Jazz neck I'd adapt... and survive.

[Cat Burrito]

I'm more surprised you have so many people in the audience who 1) know what the bassist does & 2) notice the difference in the tones!

Ultimately if the difference is slight I'd go for what feels comfortable as personally I play better on what feels right

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='960961' date='Sep 19 2010, 10:02 AM'][b]I'm more surprised you have so many people in the audience who 1) know what the bassist does & 2) notice the difference in the tones! [/b]

Ultimately if the difference is slight I'd go for what feels comfortable as personally I play better on what feels right[/quote]
And herein lies the dilemma.
However, if the difference is slight offer the best you can, create new muscle memory and eventually it will feel natural again.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Ou7shined

[JTUK]

I have settled on 2 gigging basses and carry them to 99.9% of my gigs.

One sits in the mix or supports the band well, cuts through finger-wise if you dig in and is a blast to go mad on...should the song allow it.
It can have a great bridge-pickup sound in certain rooms
If you slap a little part..as much as the finger style is understated unless digging in, the slap notes REALLY jump out. You wouldn't want to play riffs like this as it would be too much...for my tastes, anyway..but for that little line, it is superb.
The other bass,is pretty much the same but has a RW board as opposed to maple, and this is far more subtle. It is still a very good player, IMV, but a lot more restrained. It still has a killer slap sound, but needs new strings to be at its best. When this is the case, I'll use it on quieter gigs.

I can really swap around and love both. The John East on both amps gives me onboard tweakery, but mostly once I have sound checked it, I don't have to touch the EQ's again.
I can use either on most numbers and have no problems at all, but the one I go to most is the maple and it is easy to get a sound..the other takes a tad more work. I am talking, turn up the volume on the bass, test a few of the most discerning sounds/things that I do and that is pretty much it, so not time consuming at all... If I had to use only one, it wouldn't matter to me which one.
I get a lot of nice things said about the maple from other bass players, but I KNOW the RW has the better more cultured tone, AFAIC.

Edited September 19, 2010 by JTUK

[wateroftyne]

As you say, it's all about perception! Whenever I've picked up a Warwick, they've felt virtually unplayable... almost like I should tickle it, and be careful not to snap it in half. BUT... If I spent a bit of time with one, do doubt I'd get used to it.

As for tone... my personal mantra is: Out in the room, the magic is all in the mids - zing don't mean a thing.

IMO.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='960956' date='Sep 19 2010, 09:54 AM']For me it's tone all the way. We are the variable in this equation and we have an inherent ability to adapt. We have a duty to the audience to offer the best we can. They don't care if if we find the profile or balance a bit off.[/quote]

An interesting view and not one that I am criticising or saying is wrong but an audience will have as many variations on what they like in a bass sound as we do as players. Hence you as the player (unless you are a session player and [u]told[/u] what the sound required is) are deciding what is the best tone for your audience, which you are entitled to do but then again if the next bassist happens to think 'I prefer this sound' does that mean the audience are getting short changed? Just throwing the thought out there for consideration!

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='961010' date='Sep 19 2010, 10:59 AM']An interesting view and not one that I am criticising or saying is wrong but an audience will have as many variations on what they like in a bass sound as we do as players. Hence you as the player (unless you are a session player and [u]told[/u] what the sound required is) are deciding what is the best tone for your audience, which you are entitled to do but then again if the next bassist happens to think 'I prefer this sound' does that mean the audience are getting short changed? Just throwing the thought out there for consideration![/quote]
Yep that's a really good point. You were making your point based upon your missus' interpretation of the best sound.
All I can say is that I get a kick out of knowing that I've tried my best in every respect to offer the audience my very best effort in tone, vibe and entertainment value. Other bassists have different priorities and that's fine. We get little thanks for our roll in the band and I always enjoy those moments when the bassist has more people come up to him post-gig to shake his hand than any other member of the band.... and that feeling goes through the roof when he is congratulated (albeit subjectively) as being the best bassist on the bill.

[essexbasscat]

This one seems to be two part in it's nature,

1) The feel and playability of an instrument

2) the sound an instrument produces when amplified via your on - stage bass rig speakers


Both issues seem to open to a wide variation of interpretations and opinions, as they are often a matter of personal taste, unless a certain sound is specified by the person(s) doing the hiring for the gig/session.

Having messed around a bit with different pickup/instrument combinations however, I do wonder if it's possible to have the desired sound from practically any instrument (within reason), as pickups do seem to have a huge influence on the final amplified sound. Is it a case of changing pickups on the desired bass to have the best of both worlds ?

I've lost count of the number of really playable basses I've traded in over the years because they didn't have the right sound, only to realise years later that a pickup change etc was all that was needed. Talk about throwing the baby out with the water

WH - if the ideal sound had been established with the PRS, was it not possible to get close with the other basses ? i.e. more/less of this or that ?



T

Edited September 19, 2010 by essexbasscat

[Conan]

It's definitely a difficult one! If you think your playing and desire to play is going to suffer by using the bass that sounds better but plays worse... then that's a bad thing and I would stick with the better player that sounds less good. I guess it depends upon just [i]how[/i] different the playability is and just [i]how[/i] different the tones are.

If the only people who notice the difference are friends/family and other bass players - then most audiences won't notice anything at all!

There are possibly two conflicting angles here... one is that [i]knowing[/i] you have a killer tone can make you more confident in what you play and therefore enjoy it more. The other is that if your bass feels good in your hands and makes you [i]want[/i] to play, then you enjoy it more...

Maybe the secret is compromise? Does the PRS feel less playable because it is poorer quality or just because you're not used to it? Would more practice with this bass allow you to feel more confident/happy with it? If the answer is "yes", then I think the problem has solved itself.

For me personally, I'd be inclined to go with the bass that makes the band sound best - as long as I didn't have to really struggle with it...

[chris_b]

I'd use the bass that feels and plays the best and then get your sound out of the EQ. I think that most higher quality gear will get the tone you want out of any bass.

[Conan]

[quote name='chris_b' post='961051' date='Sep 19 2010, 11:45 AM']I'd use the bass that feels and plays the best and then get your sound out of the EQ. I think that most higher quality gear will get the tone you want out of any bass.[/quote]

Good point. It would be interesting to hear from the people who preferred the sound of the PRS to explain or try to quantify [i]exactly[/i] what they preferred about it, and if the difference is something that you can allow for with EQ then you get the best of both worlds...

It's a dilemma I'd love to have - which of my top-end basses sound best through my top-end rig!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Conan

[JTUK]

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='961034' date='Sep 19 2010, 11:33 AM']This one seems to be two part in it's nature,

1) The feel and playability of an instrument

2) the sound an instrument produces when amplified via your on - stage bass rig speakers


Both issues seem to open to a wide variation of interpretations and opinions, as they are often a matter of personal taste, unless a certain sound is specified by the person(s) doing the hiring for the gig/session.

Having messed around a bit with different pickup/instrument combinations however, I do wonder if it's possible to have the desired sound from practically any instrument (within reason), as pickups do seem to have a huge influence on the final amplified sound. Is it a case of changing pickups on the desired bass to have the best of both worlds ?

...............

T[/quote]


Sounds mainly come out of the placement of the pup...which is why J basses don't do a P-bass... different things..although I accept you can get close enough for most people. But if you want a P-bass then use a p-bass.
On some gigs/songs, you may be told what bass to use if the gig is at that level.

Enfields pickup is all about the placement of the magnets under the string and therfore what sound you can get. It does it VERY VERY well...but aesthetically doesn't work for me. Sounds awesome though.

Having said that..I use a jazz because it has all the sounds I want, but there are also jazz sounds within jazz sounds. As in my maple and RW have basic core differences and one is woodier than the other but both are unmistakenly jazzes.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' post='961055' date='Sep 19 2010, 11:49 AM']..... It would be interesting to hear from the people who preferred the sound of the PRS to explain or try to quantify [i]exactly[/i] what they preferred about it, and if the difference is something that you can allow for with EQ then you get the best of both worlds...

It's a dilemma I'd love to have - which of my top-end basses sound best through my top-end rig! [/quote]

Shouldn't matter...nobody knows better what tone I am after than I do. And I would think most players know what they want from an instrument, be it saxes, harps, etc etc


If a player compliments me on my tone, that is nice, nobody would not like that, IMV, but I might not know what he plays and how he plays.
He may come from a pick and p-bass sound and I am just doing something different. If the conversation is more detailed you might pick up on this,
but mostly the praise is an endorsement but it will not alter what I am after.

But sometimes the tone is all about what I might be inspired to play. If I get this variance and like it...it might make what I do on that gig in that room completely different to what I might try at other times.
But we aren't talking about wild differences here...just things for embellishments that I notice. Others will hear it but not know why.

[Chris2112]

I've always just went with the bass that I felt like playing...a little tweak of the EQ and you can usually get the sound you want in most rooms as long as there isn't a total incompetant running the sound board! IME, anyway!

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='960944' date='Sep 19 2010, 09:37 AM']Do I/we play a bass that 'feels' great but is maybe a 95% as good as the tone of a bass that doesn't feel as good OR do we go for the best sounding bass? I'm not asking anyone to make my mind up for me, I've already established in my head what I think and if anyone bothers to comment I'll give my verdict later but for now I wondered what others thought.[/quote]

I think i do. Ive had 4 jazz basses since i started playing. I love the feel of them. The necks are the main reason but i like the contoured body shapes as well.
But, i d tend to go off the tone after a while. I like the Jazz tone (especially the one i have at the moment) but i know ill still hanker for something better, probably a P.
Each bass ive owned has had its merits but for me it always comes down to how the bass plays and feels first. And to be honest i dont now what my ideal tone would be anyway.
My Rig is quite middy and that's not my idea tone and if im being really picky each song could do with a slightly different tone but thats not going to happen with just the one bass, so as long as i have a good tone with a bass that inspires me i dont think i could ask for too much more.
I also find the venue can have an effect on my tone, to the point that one week i love what i have and the next it can sound to boomy, too toppy etc.

[Lozz196]

Its a difficult one, playability v tone. My view is that, no matter how good a bass played, if it didn`t sound like a Precision, I would be fighting it, trying to get something out of it that wasn`t there. However, if the sound I wanted was there, I would be more relaxed with the bass, so more likely to play better.

So in response to the original question, I`d stick with the PRS, but maybe look around for the exact same model PRS, but one that played more comparably to the Warwick?

[Conan]

[quote name='JTUK' post='961091' date='Sep 19 2010, 12:26 PM']Shouldn't matter...nobody knows better what tone I am after than I do. And I would think most players know what they want from an instrument, be it saxes, harps, etc etc[/quote]

True, but as we all know, the tone that [i]we[/i] hear when stood up on the stage can be very different to the one that the punters hear. This begs the question, do we play for our own personal satisfaction or for that of the audience and/or other band members? Are the two mutually exclusive?

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' post='961198' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:26 PM']True, but as we all know, the tone that [i]we[/i] hear when stood up on the stage can be very different to the one that the punters hear. This begs the question, do we play for our own personal satisfaction or for that of the audience and/or other band members? Are the two mutually exclusive?[/quote]


Personal satisfaction.. I am putting myself out there as a reference point. This is what I do, this is how I do it, etc.
Like it or don't like it...come or don't come.. that is my attitude to the audience. Having said that, my friends who have seen me over the years, tend to trust my judgement when I say come see this band I am in, or don't worry about that one, bla bla..

I can't worry about peoples taste when they like a song because they sing along with it...
I doubt I could recite any words from any of my favourite songs..
I don't listen to them much..I listen more to what goes on underneath.

[Conan]

[quote name='JTUK' post='961212' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:42 PM']Like it or don't like it...come or don't come.. that is my attitude to the audience.[/quote]

Again, I see your point. But I have to say that I would rather play to full houses, even if it meant slightly compromising on my sound/tone/set-up. Obviously not so much "compromise" that I no longer felt comfortable mind!

I guess its a kind of professional pride thing isn't it. If every band member sorts out their own stuff, then the band will sound as good as it possibly could. But does that work in reality? If, for example, the drummer buys a new kit and there is some kind of frequency clash with the bass sound - who should change? Should he re-tune his kit or should I re-EQ my sound? Or should we both say "sod you, this is MY sound and I ain't changing it!"?

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='JTUK' post='961212' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:42 PM']...Like it or don't like it...come or don't come.. that is my attitude to the audience....[/quote]That's a bit rum considering they've paid to see you.

[BigRedX]

I'd say it sounds as though you still haven't found quite the right bass for that particular band.

These days there's no reason why you should have to compromise on any one of tone, playability or looks.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' post='961222' date='Sep 19 2010, 02:57 PM']Again, I see your point. But I have to say that I would rather play to full houses, even if it meant slightly compromising on my sound/tone/set-up. Obviously not so much "compromise" that I no longer felt comfortable mind!

I guess its a kind of professional pride thing isn't it. If every band member sorts out their own stuff, then the band will sound as good as it possibly could. But does that work in reality? If, for example, the drummer buys a new kit and there is some kind of frequency clash with the bass sound - who should change? Should he re-tune his kit or should I re-EQ my sound? Or should we both say "sod you, this is MY sound and I ain't changing it!"? [/quote]

Can't see my tone being the difference of a full house or not, but hey, you never know...

As per the kit? he'll tune his drum with my sound in mind and vice-versa, ditto gtrs, but I don't set my bass up to hog frequencies and we work it out.
Some gtrs are oblivious to their sound and the rest of the band and so are some keys..in regards to what they play.
You talk about it and work it out. We aren't likely to have to do too much work there. It depends more on what they play rather than the sounds, mostly.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='961225' date='Sep 19 2010, 03:00 PM']That's a bit rum considering they've paid to see you.[/quote]


Not really, since they'l do what they want to do anyway. I can't influence them on their decisions any more than they can on mine.
I just try and tell them if the band is worth seeing or not. I told them plenty of times when I have been out with a band not to bother
as it isn't that great. But, by the same token, they know that if I say they should check this band out, then they listen.
I still can't frog-match them to the gig but they trust that I am straight with them and then they decide whether they can reconcile their taste reference with mine once they have see us.

As for the tone and the OP, tone first...but the trick is to get the basses to cover both.
It has been a very long search for me, but all in all, I have got as close as I ever have and I am pretty happy

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='961244' date='Sep 19 2010, 03:25 PM']I'd say it sounds as though you still haven't found quite the right bass for that particular band.

These days there's no reason why you should have to compromise on any one of tone, playability or looks.[/quote]

I know exactly what you mean by 'the right bass for that particular band' as I've found over the years that certain basses tend to sit better in the mix with particular guitars.

The funny thing is that this thread has me thinking more and more about what we as bass players want from our instruments (in particular tone) and what punters might want. The sound that I liked the most was not something that the majority of people talking to me seemed to like; oh and the audience contained a range of professional and 'Weekend warrior' musicians as well as a director of the local music education authority. So where does that leave us as musicians who are trying to please our audience? It would appear that the sound that I want the audience to hear may not be what they particularly want and btw I'm not talking about extremes of sound here just differences that discerning listeners might identify.

<edit for OCD typo>

Edited September 19, 2010 by warwickhunt