Age old dilemma - playability v tone.

[gjones]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='960961' date='Sep 19 2010, 10:02 AM']I'm more surprised you have so many people in the audience who 1) know what the bassist does & 2) notice the difference in the tones! [/quote]

Yes.....unless the sound is strikingly different I would assume your average punter probably wouldn't notice. Maybe they were commenting on the colour not the sound?

[Musicman20]

I've concluded that for rock, you can't beat a p bass or stingray. I love the Jazz tone but I prefer the feel of a P and the fact I feel it sits easier in the mix.

If I'm in a bad moodor stressed, I always seem to struggle liking my tone 100%.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Musicman20

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='gjones' post='961420' date='Sep 19 2010, 06:56 PM']Yes.....unless the sound is strikingly different I would assume your average punter probably wouldn't notice. Maybe they were commenting on the colour not the sound?[/quote]

Would you consider the difference between a Jazz and a Precision to be striking? I suppose to a high percentage of non-musos watching a band then bass is bass and the actual instrument and inherent tone is lost on them. However for the kind of listener who can differentiate between a Ric and a Ray then the difference in tone may well be striking. As an aside; after being with me for 25 years my Mrs can listen to a recording and a surprisingly large number of times she can accurately identify the make of bass used (so long as it is one of the common/standard types and nothing too obscure)... she really is a god send/nightmare when I want an honest opinion on tone.

[The Burpster]

I'm saying nowt - I'm just sat here smug in the knowledge that the PRS was getting so much attention!!!!

:wub:

[JTUK]

If she is that close to knowing what is what..then she worth listening to...as opposed to being your partner and you have no choice, sort of thing

The thing about people in the audience is that such a small percentage ( possibly no-one ) knows anything about bass apart from the low-end sound and those that know more might be miles away from what you are looking for but that doesn't stop them saying their piece.

I could say that about quite a few musos on the band-stand as well, ( not knowing much about bass tone ) so if they don't say anything, then it isn't an issue with them.
I quite like it when the band leader gets into it to that degree, though, and talks to you about the gig afterwards. Assuming they aren't fishing for compliments as well..

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='gareth' post='961501' date='Sep 19 2010, 08:02 PM']Has she considered taking up bass guitar?[/quote]

We did go down that route some time ago... just after she'd tried Guitar... but before her dalliance with the Saxamaphone... and before the Penny Whistle; luckily I've managed to stop her becoming proficient in any of them!

[quote name='The Burpster' post='961502' date='Sep 19 2010, 08:03 PM']I'm saying nowt - I'm just sat here smug in the knowledge that the PRS was getting so much attention!!!!

:wub:[/quote]

Hmmm hence my dilemma.

[quote name='JTUK' post='961504' date='Sep 19 2010, 08:05 PM']If she is that close to knowing what is what..then she worth listening to...as opposed to being your partner and you have no choice, sort of thing

The thing about people in the audience is that such a small percentage ( possibly no-one ) knows anything about bass apart from the low-end sound and those that know more might be miles away from what you are looking for but that doesn't stop them saying their piece.

I could say that about quite a few musos on the band-stand as well, ( not knowing much about bass tone ) so if they don't say anything, then it isn't an issue with them.
I quite like it when the band leader gets into it to that degree, though, and talks to you about the gig afterwards. Assuming they aren't fishing for compliments as well.. [/quote]

Don't get me wrong I'm just opening this up to debate, I already know what I am going to do.

I can go and see a band and love listening to the sound of a P or a J bass and I don't think I've ever thought that the sound of the instrument wasn't right, it's just what that instrument sounds like and I accept it. On the other hand I can hear a bass tone and can form an opinion on whether that is a good representation of that particular brand, I then have to decide if it is the bassist or his gear that I like/don't like the sound of.

[dave_bass5]

Im with those who dont really care whether some one else thinks its right or not.
Ive never had anyone comment that im using the wrong bass or wrong tone. Why would they unless they they think they are someone special and better than me. My band, my instrument, my tone like it or lump it. An di woyuld give any one esle the same.

I can understand friends who have seen the band before commenting that a certain bass sounds better to them but again, thats their opinion.

When i was doing the Wellah band i used various basses, including 5 strings (in fact i never had a P at the time). Again, no one ever commented on it. And these were die hard Jam/Paul weller fans.

I think those who talk about other musicians in the audience noticing are reading too much in to that as well. So what, do we just play for one or two peopel who may or may not be critical, or to the other 100 peole who are up dancing, singing alone etc.

[The Burpster]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='961525' date='Sep 19 2010, 08:22 PM']Hmmm hence my dilemma. [/quote]


There is no dilemma - you've been Smithed !!!!!

[Conan]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='961525' date='Sep 19 2010, 08:22 PM']Don't get me wrong I'm just opening this up to debate, I already know what I am going to do. [/quote]

Well tell us then!

[JTUK]

oh, I don't know..I can see quite a few bands and think what on earth is he/she doing there. That sound is awful etc etc .. but then
maybe that is the sound they want or that is all they can get.
but..it is only from my POV, and since I have a choice to stay or go, it isn't a problem.
I am pretty sure that some don't put any thought into it at all but again, that is from where I am coming from.

It just might not be the way I would do it.
FWIW, no one round here has a great sound, that I have heard recently, IMO..maybe I am so far off the loop, I am the one who is wrong.

[Ou7shined]

Of course the bottom line is, once you've got your sound you are at the mercy of stage/room acoustics and what the sound guy considers a good sound.
All we can do is try our best.

[JTUK]

Both the basses I use will be strung with lively strings, they are both John East but have different pups. KA and maple and Barts RW.
Both can underpin the band well enough and both have enough about them to jump out of the mix when required. The maple is softer to play..but extreme in its slap sound and will chop down trees ... that is great for fills but not riffs.
The RW is far more subtle and cultured in its sound and maybe woodier, more traditional. Still a striking slap sound, if required.
I only pop a little fill in to juice up the line, IMO ...NO RIFFS..
Both sound great to me but I can rip around easier on the maple but I think the slightly harder to play RW projects better.

For a very frenetic 'fooled again' where Entwhistle is all over the place, and we do the same, I'll use the maple.
On live recordings, both do well and 1x15 and 2x10 projected better to the device than 2x1x12, possibly, although jury is still out on this.
Up close, the sound of the 2x1x12 is far better for me. I am thinking a harsher sounding 12 config might be what I need but I don't want to lose
the big full GS bottom.

My best after-gig comments have always been after I have been through a PA.... bug..
Band leaders may get it as they have ears on to coax the band through songs, but unless a part jumps down people's throats, only other bass playes know and that is probably because they are attuned to the bass and might be watching..

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='JTUK' post='961852' date='Sep 20 2010, 09:17 AM']oh, I don't know..I can see quite a few bands and think what on earth is he/she doing there. That sound is awful etc etc .. but then
maybe that is the sound they want or that is all they can get.
but..it is only from my POV, and since I have a choice to stay or go, it isn't a problem.
[b]I am pretty sure that some don't put any thought into it at all [/b]but again, that is from where I am coming from.

It just might not be the way I would do it.
FWIW, no one round here has a great sound, that I have heard recently, IMO..maybe I am so far off the loop, I am the one who is wrong.

[/quote]
Exactly The amount of times I've done a sound check, noted the dials on the amp so I can recreate whatever sweet spot I've found, then when we're up the settings are exactly the same..... except the volume is hoiked up to the max.

This one memorable time, gigging with my 'ray (house amp = TE 4x10 combo) and there was a girl band on very early on the bassist had a 'ray copy (Vintage or something) and she used "my" amp settings. It was a complete disaster. Even the cloth-eared punters were appalled at the nerve shattering mid hump coming from the bass.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='JTUK' post='961852' date='Sep 20 2010, 09:17 AM']oh, I don't know..I can see quite a few bands and think what on earth is he/she doing there. That sound is awful etc etc .. but then
maybe that is the sound they want or that is all they can get.
but..it is only from my POV, and since I have a choice to stay or go, it isn't a problem.
I am pretty sure that some don't put any thought into it at all but again, that is from where I am coming from.

It just might not be the way I would do it.
FWIW, no one round here has a great sound, that I have heard recently, IMO..maybe I am so far off the loop, I am the one who is wrong.

[/quote]

Thats the thing, its all down to personal tastes. And if you consider there could be 200+ people in the audience, each with their own idea of how the band should sound etc your on a hiding to nothing trying to please the crowd at the expense of pleasing yourself.

As has already been said, i think a lot of the tone comes from how you play, not what you play.
If i feel good about my tone and how well the bass feels then i produce better music. There are a few places we play where i end up with a pretty poor tone on stage, but good out front. I play badly on those gigs. Sometimes its the other way round though and while i might have a poor tone (to me) out front on stage its great and i play much better. But no one ever comes up to us and comments on a poor sound. They still seem to enjoy it no matter what.
If i had a bass where i was struggling with i really wouldn't enjoy any of it.

[JTUK]

well some amps are pretty complicated and you don't get the time if you are sound-checking with the audience already there.
I recently had to use a GK 700 thing with 15's and a horn. I must admit my heart sank a tad when I saw that as I was asked not to bring my stuff which is set up for me.
I flattened everything to start with and got rid of all those pre set buttons which do god knows what, dial the bass knob down more, and tweaked the higher end so they cabs would speak. It was still still too flubby and soft down below..which is 15"s imo, but got a useable sound for stage. I wasn't that concerned as the FOH and my basses would do all the work from there on.
I think I nailed the top end which was from my bass and some of the other bass players loved the sound. I wasn't sure where they were listening from but you could hear the top of my bass speak from anywhere. Maybe that is what they focused on. As overall bass sounds go, I'd be pissed off tho, if I got that from my rig and no one else got a decent sound from where I was anyway.

I think some people set up the bass for how they want to play it and hear it close up..and think the sound man can rescue them.. and this is only possible if, a) they want to and have time, and they know it is a factor.

I tend to give soundmen as much as I can up top ( within reason and I'll demo my most peaky sound for them ) and then let them cut it for their mix.
That way they have to work at taking out the top end as opposed to not realising that I would like them to add it, if they don't know my playing.
I am talking about things that cut through, not taking over..

And to bring this around to the OP again, I think I will add two small 12's with more of a mid bias and see how that works.

I have to say that I am really happy with my all round sounds, amps/cabs and basses atm, on stage..but out there..hmmm...???

Edited September 20, 2010 by JTUK

[JTUK]

dave_bass5,

yes, agree.

plus I think I my bass sound is exactly what I have been looking for for years...and mostly I am pretty damn close to getting it

[tauzero]

Personally, playability trumps tone. If it doesn't sound right, I'll wiggle the knobs until it does. If it doesn't play right, I'll sell it and buy something else. I will not keep a bass which I find inadequate on the playability front (I won't buy it in the first place if I can try it out, but with buying basses over the interweb, that's not always possible).

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='tauzero' post='961921' date='Sep 20 2010, 10:15 AM']Personally, playability trumps tone. If it doesn't sound right, I'll wiggle the knobs until it does. If it doesn't play right, I'll sell it and buy something else. I will not keep a bass which I find inadequate on the playability front (I won't buy it in the first place if I can try it out, but with buying basses over the interweb, that's not always possible).[/quote]

That's pretty much where I am coming from and even though the basses I've retained over the years have the sound that I like and 'feel' right for me, I'm still looking to get that last couple of % to reach sonic nirvana! However, do I compromise on that playability/feel to get a fractionally better tone especially when you consider that it is 'my' definition of good tone that I am looking to improve and for all I know absolutely no-one in the room may agree that the tone I have searched for is to their taste.

In summary; I'm likely going to replace the electronics in one of my basses in order to tweak a bit of tone from it, as the playability is superior to anything else that I own.

[JTUK]

I think you stand a better chance of getting the bass very playable rather than getting a great tone.

I will not buy a bass that is hard work to play but by the same token I will not do that for tone either.
Great tone isn't something that many basses are capable of, IMV so when you find that special one or two or whatever, it is the keeper.
But of course, if it plays like a dog, then that retires that bass as well.

[The Burpster]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='962485' date='Sep 20 2010, 06:01 PM']In summary; I'm likely going to replace the electronics in one of my basses in order to tweak a bit of tone from it, as the playability is superior to anything else that I own. [/quote]


As thats being done by members on here everyday I'm surprised that wasnt your first thoughts on this quest for nirvana.....

I've even been harbouring a plan to do that to a PRS (as you now know), so thats an area that is much easier to achieve.

Do you know what the missing % of you tone is tho' ? or is it something that isnt quite right?

The 'isnt quite right' option is a right bugger to find.

[Conan]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='962937' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:58 AM']The 'isnt quite right' option is a right bugger to find.[/quote]

Quote of the week!!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='The Burpster' post='962937' date='Sep 21 2010, 07:58 AM']As thats being done by members on here everyday I'm surprised that wasnt your first thoughts on this quest for nirvana.....

I've even been harbouring a plan to do that to a PRS (as you now know), so thats an area that is much easier to achieve.

Do you know what the missing % of you tone is tho' ? or is it something that isnt quite right?

The 'isnt quite right' option is a right bugger to find.[/quote]

'isnt quite right' and that elusive missing something which is an unquantifiable amount is precisiely why I posed the question of living with something not quite right.

[JTUK]

I'd go with the post that said you need to keep looking...which could be fun.

How 'not right' is that tho..?

If I would say my basses are missing something..I am not even sure I know what I would change..
hence the cab change idea I posted.

In the context of basic bass sound, I'm there...how that gets round the room, I can't really control.

I'd guess in 99% of instances I am more than happy.

[LawrenceH]

Personally I think tone makes an enormous difference to perceived playability - think about how much harder work it seems playing a passive bass straight through a line input versus DI, even when you adjust the levels to compensate, just because of the difference in how the pickup reacts with one versus the other. So I'd think nine times out of ten tone and playability to an extent go hand in hand. And if a bass sounds great and plays lousy then I'd usually look to a decent set-up to sort it out. Beyond that, and any really gross ergonomic issues like massive chunky necks with heavy dive, I'd expect to be able to adapt to the smaller differences given time. I found jazzes strange having moved over from Yamaha/Ibanez but now I'm able to do what I could before on my jazzes. Not sure I could replicate it on anyone else's though!

[algmusic]

When I bought my first bass, I'd been borrowing basses for years... The 1st bass I bought was based on how it felt. I could play better with bass that felt right than a bass that was sounded great, but I couldn't get around the fretboard or body..

As I've got older, I trained my body to deal with different basses that don't feel as good but sound great... When I'm buying a bass it needs to feel good, but tone is very i'mportant, so in rush to get a good bass it needs to feel good and sound great..

on a gig.. depends.. If I have time get used to that bass, I go for tone.. but if I'm depping and playing 40 songs I've played once, i'll play much better on my bass that feels good and I'll just eq the bass.. The band will be happier if I'm playing the right notes well over bass tone, which no-one really hears as much as we'd like