NYC Sadowsky at Guitar Guitar!!!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' post='963509' date='Sep 21 2010, 04:38 PM']Ive just been speaking to roger about the mass production issue etc

He read this thread and gave me these figures

Average NYC production is 15-20 basses a month.
Average Metro production is 40 basses a month, worldwide.
We have 7 builders in the NY workshop.


I bet fender do that in a day!! Lol[/quote]

I wouldnt say thats small production though. Nothing is going to come close to the manic Fender production, but 40 Metros a month is still a fair few IMO.

[Marlat]

This thread makes me laugh. Seriously, the value of the basses has nothing to do with whether they are "production" or "non-production" whatever that means. It has nothing to do with whether you can buy a "small boutique builder in the East End custom fancy topped modern hippy sandwich J bass inspired with your name inlayed in the fret board bass" for half the price that's (IYO) just as good. Its simply a matter of supply versus demand. And, notwithstanding what a few internet bassists think about whether a Sadowsky bass (or any other brand, for that matter) is "worth the money", the fact is that they sell for the price asked and they sell in quantities that mean there is a waiting list for custom order NYC's and Metros. Its easy to forget that despite the internet bassist hype, Roger's basses reputation was built on the back to his set-up and repair work in NYC in the 80's and the use of his basses by studio pros in NYC in the 80's and 90's. I'd be willing to be a large part of the Sadowsky user base still remains working pro musicians. The fact that his basses are the choice of pros is what keeps the demand up there and hence the prices. You can't isolate any one factor as to why they are the choice of many musicians, but its probably a combination of the fit, finish, sound, consistency, customer service etc. It wouldn't matter how the basses were made so long as all the things that make them great and desirable are still there. Clearly they arn't desirable for everyone otherwise everyone would play a Sadowsky. That's the beauty of having choices. But, the idea that they arn't "worth it" judged by some arbitrary standard of whether they are "production" or "parts" of "hand made" is just laughable. The value of these bassees is based on what the market is willing to pay for them. The reality is if they wern't "worth it" in the universal sense, they wouldn't sell. There is a waiting list, what does that tell you?

For the record, you can apply this to any bass brand.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='964167' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:00 AM']For the record, you can apply this to any bass brand.[/quote]

And then we're back to that bloated and well tread issue of "supply and demand", a debate as redundant as asking why Ferrari charge hundreds of thousands of pounds for cars when TVR got similar bang for buck for much less cash.

That argument was well covered in the Fodera thread, although there it was perhaps less contentious. Despite Fodera charging $5000 for a truss rod and a different bridge, at least it's their own design and it has taken the design of the bass significantly further forward than just being a jazz bass.

Not to knock the Jazz bass though, as I'd happily play a Modulus VMJ with a lovely graphite neck!

[Marlat]

Its only bloated and well tread because some people seem incabable of understanding the basics of supply and demand and the internet gives them a venue to display this lack of understanding

Edited September 22, 2010 by Mark Latimour

[Musicman20]

Excuse me, I have no incapability understanding anything around supply and demand. I would just take note that all we are doing is discussing, and trying to keep it friendly. I wouldnt start attacking anyones understanding of business, espcially considering we dont know each others background/hobbies and occupation. Ive worked in small and extremely busy businesses whilst studying, and I understand how these basic principles work.

Supply and demand, yes. No objection. Price? Well, I can say what I like. Its not like Ive not played one.

Its seems as soon as someone touches a nerve, (for instance if there is a NYC or Metro owner reading) we all have to endure yet another attack on our opinion.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Musicman20

[Marlat]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964202' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:23 AM']Supply and demand, yes. No objection. Price? Well, I can say what I like. Its not like Ive not played one.

Its seems as soon as someone touches a nerve, (for instance if there is a NYC or Metro owner reading) we all have to endure yet another attack on our opinion.[/quote]

On the "theoretical" pricing debate, my point is simply that bass pricing is whatver the bass pricing is. You can be as upset as you like about the fact that you can't afford it or that, even if you could, you don't think its worth it. However, that's basically irrelevant because its clear that the market thinks the basses are worth it. There are plenty of bass companies that disconinue models etc because the market thinks those models arn't worth it. OTOH it seems pretty silly to me to bang on about how a bass with a 6 month+ waiting list "isn't worth it" (and i'm not suggesting that's what you are saying). To be honest, I would struggle to be able to justify buying another Sadwosky at their current prices, but I don't think they arn't worth it, I just realise that I can't afford what they cost. There is a big difference. NOw, there are some basses out there that I do think charge more than I would be willing to pay for a bass, but I don't think that they arn't worth it (they also have waiting lists), I just appreciate theres a difference between my valuation of the bass and the markets valuation.

Put simply: if something's overpriced it won't sell, if it sells, whether or not you'd be prepared to buy it is irrelevant to pricing consideration and I see little value in posting in a thread complaining about price if you wouldn't buy it anyway.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Mark Latimour

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='964216' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:40 AM']Right, so you haven't played one. I guess that kinda says all one really needs to know about your opinion on the actual value of the basses in the hands of a player.[/quote]

But he's saying he has played one?

At the end of the day, it's not the fact that it's a £3000 bass that I find silly, it's the fact that it's a £3000 [i]jazz[/i] bass. For that kind of money I'd expect at least an Alembic Mark King signature!

[Marlat]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964217' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:43 AM']But he's saying he has played one?

At the end of the day, it's not the fact that it's a £3000 bass that I find silly, it's the fact that it's a £3000 [i]jazz[/i] bass. For that kind of money I'd expect at least an Alembic Mark King signature! [/quote]

I think there was a typo when I replied to the original thread omitting the "not". I have edited that out now the OP has edited his post.

As for your pricing arguments, see my post above. In summary: your opinion on the matter is irrelevant (and I don't mean that to be insulting, just that you're clearly not the target customer for a £3,000 jazz bass).

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='964216' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:40 AM']Right, so you haven't played one. I guess that kinda says all one really needs to know about your opinion on the actual value of the basses in the hands of a player.

On the "theoretical" pricing debate, my point is simply that bass pricing is whatver the bass pricing is. You can be as upset as you like about the fact that you can't afford it or that, even if you could, you don't think its worth it. However, that's basically irrelevant because its clear that the market thinks the basses are worth it. There are plenty of bass companies that disconinue models etc because the market thinks those models arn't worth it. OTOH it seems pretty silly to me to bang on about how a bass with a 6 month+ waiting list "isn't worth it" (and i'm not suggesting that's what you are saying). To be honest, I would struggle to be able to justify buying another Sadwosky at their current prices, but I don't think they arn't worth it, I just realise that I can't afford what they cost. There is a big difference. NOw, there are some basses out there that I do think charge more than I would be willing to pay for a bass, but I don't think that they arn't worth it (they also have waiting lists), I just appreciate theres a difference between my valuation of the bass and the markets valuation.

Put simply: if something's overpriced it won't sell, if it sells, whether or not you'd be prepared to buy it is irrelevant to pricing consideration and I see little value in posting in a thread complaining about price if you wouldn't buy it anyway.[/quote]

Read it again. Its not like I havent played one. I have played 3 or so. I even went back in to see if it was just the amp etc causing me to wonder what the fuss was about.

I dont understand the comment about not being able to afford one. Is that aimed at me? I looked into buying one of these (yes a NYC and a Metro) and I even thought about going over there and having a holiday at the same time. Anyway, thats pointless arguing whether someone can or cannot afford one, and again is just being a little bit patronising to not just myself, but anyone who reads this. I dont like it when for no reason people start being overly aggressive on here. Its the internet, not real life. A forum like this doesnt normally have such comments.

Waiting list....? Virtually all companies bar the big production companies like Fender have waiting lists. On contact with Lakland a month ago, they have a 4 month waiting list on their 44-60 Jazz bass. Ive even known Fender to have waiting lists at some points.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964222' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:47 AM']Read it again. Its not like I havent played one. I have played 3 or so. I even went back in to see if it was just the amp etc causing me to wonder what the fuss was about.[/quote]

See above, its edited out.

[quote]I dont understand the comment about not being able to afford one. Is that aimed at me? I looked into buying one of these (yes a NYC and a Metro) and I even thought about going over there and having a holiday at the same time. Anyway, thats pointless arguing whether someone can or cannot afford one, and again is just being a little bit patronising to not just myself, but anyone who reads this. I dont like it when for no reason people start being overly aggressive on here. Its the internet, not real life. A forum like this doesnt normally have such comments.[/quote]

There is nothing aggressive in my posts, just read them with a smile, that's how I am posting them. I'm talking the the abstract, not specifically about you. The point is that if Sadowsky basses rock your world more than any other bass then the price to entry is the price they charge. If there is another bass that does a better job for you, buy that bass whether its costs more or less. Why waste time posting about how a bass is "overpriced" on the internet if you arn't going to buy the bass anyway. We are musicians, we should buy the tool that works best for us whether its a £3500 Sadowsky or a £300 SX.

[quote]Waiting list....? Virtually all companies bar the big production companies like Fender have waiting lists. On contact with Lakland a month ago, they have a 4 month waiting list on their 44-60 Jazz bass. Ive even known Fender to have waiting lists at some points.[/quote]

If a company has a manageable waiting list that the market will bear then its a good indicator that they are priced well in their market. That's a supply vs demand basic.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Mark Latimour

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='964225' date='Sep 22 2010, 10:53 AM']If a company has a manageable waiting list that the market will bear then its a good indicator that they are priced well in their market. That's a supply vs demand basic.[/quote]

In the USA, perhaps this is so, and I can see why they are more popular because they seem to be getting a better overall financial deal on the basses, and obviously closer contact with the company.

Ship them over here, pay VAT, customs, shipping or pay a little extra and get one from one of the outlets, and THEN it isnt such a great deal. I realise we suffer quite a bit with most products like this, but when the product is already high end, its an extra sting.

Dont even get me started on how I view the way these basses are sold here. That winds me up even more. Something like this needs a bass specialist, not a general guitar/music shop as most the workers and normally guitarists with no or very little bass knowledge. Obviously the Bass Gallery are the best to contact!

Edited September 22, 2010 by Musicman20

[birdy]

The thing with Sadowsky's is that they can sound unspectacular when played solo and really shine when part of a mix in my opinion. Some basses sound amazing solo and rubbish in a mix.

Maybe that's why some of you dont 'get' Sadowskys?

Steve

[Chris2112]

[quote name='birdy' post='964242' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:08 AM']The thing with Sadowsky's is that they can sound unspectacular when played solo and really shine when part of a mix in my opinion. Some basses sound amazing solo and rubbish in a mix.[/quote]

I can't say I've ever known a bass to sound good on it's own and bad in the mix or vice versa. A good bass sounds good, period. If it doesn't sound good all the time, why would you buy it when there are so many basses that can?

[Marlat]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964233' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:02 AM']In the USA, perhaps this is so, and I can see why they are more popular because they seem to be getting a better overall financial deal on the basses, and obviously closer contact with the company.[/quote]

I am not sure I get your point here. Sadowsky has a fixed pricing structure so you pay what you pay. The prices are in USD and then its the exchange rate that determines what you pay in the UK (which, unsurprisingly is out of Sadowsky's control). WHen I bought my two Sadowsky's the exchange rate was $2 to the GBP - we were getting a better deal than people in the states when you compare relative incomes. (I have since sold one). You don't get a better deal in the States, you just don't have to worry about the exchange rate. Right now, for example, the AUD is about 0.95USD. That is a stonkin deal for Aussies looking to buy US goods as traditionally the AUD is about $0.5-0.7USD. As for contact, I have always got a reply from the Sadowsky shop within hours whenever I have emailed them and they always pick up the phone. Half the time, Roger answers. I've had the same experience from MTD as well (except that Mike always answers there).

[quote]Ship them over here, pay VAT, customs, shipping or pay a little extra and get one from one of the outlets, and THEN it isnt such a great deal. I realise we suffer quite a bit with most products like this, but when the product is already high end, its an extra sting.[/quote]

I don't really see it as a matter of not being a good deal, its the price of entry if you want one. If you are happier with another brand thats cheaper, buy that. If you don't want to pay customs (which is bugger all on an electric bass, the main cost is VAT which you do pay here as well on locally produced basses) then buy local or used. I just don't see the big deal.

[quote]Dont even get me started on how I view the way these basses are sold here. That winds me up even more. Something like this needs a bass specialist, not a general guitar/music shop as most the workers and normally guitarists with no or very little bass knowledge. Obviously the Bass Gallery are the best to contact![/quote]

I like to buy my basses used or direct from the manufacturer. Saves dealing with third party stores.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964249' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:14 AM']I can't say I've ever known a bass to sound good on it's own and bad in the mix or vice versa. A good bass sounds good, period. If it doesn't sound good all the time, why would you buy it when there are so many basses that can?[/quote]

That's not what he said though, is it?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964249' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:14 AM']I can't say I've ever known a bass to sound good on it's own and bad in the mix or vice versa. A good bass sounds good, period. If it doesn't sound good all the time, why would you buy it when there are so many basses that can?[/quote]

This also left me confused. Surely it should sound excellent in and out of the mix?! A P bass with flats sounds nice in a mix, but also sounds nice out of the mix IMO.

The mix is not just about the bass anyway, its everyone else, volume levels, amps, cabs, pedals, PA, etc. Sometimes I sound rubbish in a mix, then another venue it feels great.

Anyway, I dont want to start going on and on, as I see why people like the quality of the Sadowsky basses. That is a huge factor I consider.

[birdy]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964249' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:14 AM']I can't say I've ever known a bass to sound good on it's own and bad in the mix or vice versa. A good bass sounds good, period. If it doesn't sound good all the time, why would you buy it when there are so many basses that can?[/quote]

Well 'good' or 'bad' sound is a very subjective thing. I don't particularly like the P bass tone when played solo but think they sound amazing in many band situations as an example. All I am really saying is that after gigging and recording with a Sadowsky a lot the tone I got in the mix was magnificent.

Just for the record I haven't got a Sadowksy at the moment but was just trying to explain one possibility as to why they are popular with a lot of people. There are other basses that do the same things just as well its all down to what you want personally.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Mark Latimour' post='964258' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:19 AM']That's not what he said though, is it?[/quote]

If you want to be pedantic over the word "bad" and "unspectacular" then no, it's not what he said, I took the point to it's logical extreme. I did this because I consider myself to be somewhat discerning over what I'll play and I don't have time for anything that is "unspectacular" in any sense.

To continue down that avenue, even if I'm tracking bass parts to a click track, if I'm not happy with my sound at that stage I won't be happy with the end product. Perhaps this is why I find Alembic electronics so interesting - a sound for every occasion!

[birdy]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964306' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:51 AM']To continue down that avenue, even if I'm tracking bass parts to a click track, if I'm not happy with my sound at that stage I won't be happy with the end product. Perhaps this is why I find Alembic electronics so interesting - a sound for every occasion! [/quote]

What a waste of money Alembics are

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='birdy' post='964336' date='Sep 22 2010, 12:11 PM']What a waste of money Alembics are [/quote]

They don't even come with a BadAss.

[Legion]

[quote name='birdy' post='964282' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:36 AM']Well 'good' or 'bad' sound is a very subjective thing. I don't particularly like the P bass tone when played solo but think they sound amazing in many band situations as an example. All I am really saying is that after gigging and recording with a Sadowsky a lot the tone I got in the mix was magnificent.

Just for the record I haven't got a Sadowksy at the moment but was just trying to explain one possibility as to why they are popular with a lot of people. There are other basses that do the same things just as well its all down to what you want personally.[/quote]
Not that I want to get dragged into the whole debate but I've felt this way about my NYC...noodling at home it sounds nice enough, but live and loud it has always sounded amazing. I'm not purporting to know why, just relating my experience.

[Marlat]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964306' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:51 AM']If you want to be pedantic over the word "bad" and "unspectacular" then no, it's not what he said, I took the point to it's logical extreme. I did this because I consider myself to be somewhat discerning over what I'll play and I don't have time for anything that is "unspectacular" in any sense.[/quote]

To be correct, what you did was raise a strawman argument, not took it to its logical extreme. I have never heard someone proclaim that Sadowsky sound "bad" but then sound excellent in a mix. When I have seen people make that statement its usually along the lines that on its own a Sadowsky sounds like an active J-bass, but that their true strength is their ability to cut through a busy mix whilst retaining that sound. Something that a lot of basses fail to do. Indeed, my experience with Alemic's electronics is exactly that - in order to get them to cut through in a mix you need to adjsut them away from their natural tone to a more cutting town (I have Alembic signature electronics in one of my basses).

In any event, we get it, you don't like Sadowsky basses because they are j-bass copies. That's cool, you don't have to buy one. Why all the need for the haterade? Did Roger Sadowsky steal your milk money at school?

[Chris2112]

It's not that I don't like Sadowsky basses, as far as basses go they're alright. Solid, useable basses that get the job done in an unspectacular fashion, if you're looking for jazz bass or modern jazz bass sounds. A bass I don't like would be well, a Gibson or a P bass or something (so no, I doubt I'd like a Sadowsky P bass either, it is an inherently poor design IMO).

As far as jazz basses go, they're not the best and they're not the worst. Although the Sandberg California J basses sounded and felt much better than the Sadowsky Metros through the same amp for considerably less; perhaps there is something to be said for A/B'ing these things!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='964394' date='Sep 22 2010, 12:47 PM']It's not that I don't like Sadowsky basses, as far as basses go they're alright. Solid, useable basses that get the job done in an unspectacular fashion, if you're looking for jazz bass or modern jazz bass sounds. A bass I don't like would be well, a Gibson or a P bass or something (so no, I doubt I'd like a Sadowsky P bass either, it is an inherently poor design IMO).

As far as jazz basses go, they're not the best and they're not the worst. Although the Sandberg California J basses sounded and felt much better than the Sadowsky Metros through the same amp for considerably less; perhaps there is something to be said for A/B'ing these things! [/quote]

Ive not played a Sandberg but I think the prices are VERY reasonable.

What I dont understand with most high end makers, is that they just give you a bloody gig bag. Some gig bags are fantastic, although they wont beat the Mono one I invested in, (I hope not for the price!).

Now, I understand their aim when its for city bass players, but I would NEVER heavily gig without a full case.

If you are paying over £1k, id expect a proper case, or a discount on one.

[JustaBass]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='964233' date='Sep 22 2010, 11:02 AM']Obviously the Bass Gallery are the best to contact![/quote]


Thats what i've done ordered my metro Will Lee through them....although all this negative vibe going on makes me doubt my decision...

not...

Obviously we would all like to get a bargain but i just don't want to wait until one appears on Basschat for sale....by then i probably would'nt have the money available anyway.

Edited September 22, 2010 by JustaBass