Sharps and flats

[arthurhenry]

Has anyone observed as I have, certain conventions in rock and pop band settings for always referring to sharp or flat notes by a particular name, whether or not musically correct? For example C# is always called C# even when in a key where it should be Db. The same goes for F#, Bb (never, ever heard it called A#), and Eb. G#/Ab seem to be interchangable.

[essexbasscat]

I've noticed this too


"Thats the key of C#"

"[i]No it's not, that's Db !"[/i]

T

Edited September 22, 2010 by essexbasscat

[Cat Burrito]

It's because most rock players (self included) lack good theory knowledge

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

[quote name='Johnston' post='964882' date='Sep 22 2010, 08:21 PM']Don't have them problems with tab. 4th fret on the A is always 4th fret on the A.

[/quote]
Which string's the A again ?

[skej21]

[quote name='arthurhenry' post='964832' date='Sep 22 2010, 07:51 PM']Has anyone observed as I have, certain conventions in rock and pop band settings for always referring to sharp or flat notes by a particular name, whether or not musically correct? For example C# is always called C# even when in a key where it should be Db. The same goes for F#, Bb (never, ever heard it called A#), and Eb. G#/Ab seem to be interchangable.[/quote]

It's because most people don't understand theory at all.

The easiest way to think about it is to make sure that the letters always follow each other, and if you use a sharp or flat, keep it going.

For example, a pupil came to me for lessons and claimed he knew his key sigs, but thought that Eb major had Eb, F, G, G#, Bb, C, and D. When you write it down, it's obviously wrong because you have two G notes and no A note, and also a mix of sharps and flats.
You also have to take into account that some keys are easier to think about in flats/sharps. For example, Db major (only 5 flats) has exactly the same notes as C#, except C# major has 7 sharps, so in written music it is difficult to read and difficult to think about.

The exercise I use with students to make sure they understand it is pretty simple. Make them play a one octave major scale, whilst speaking/singing the name of each note aloud, moving up through every key in order, starting on C.

As in;

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and then descending, C, B, A, G, F, E, D, C before moving up a semitone to
Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C asc and desc - then
E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D# and so on, through all of the keys

I've found this not only helps with learning key signatures, but also helps them to understand all of the NOTES on the neck, rather than just shapes/patterns, which helps a lot with music reading and advanced improvisation.

Edited September 22, 2010 by skej21

[Alien]

I usually refer to a note as sharp in an ascending scale/run, and flat if it's decending.

BTW, my theory knowledge is almost non-existent.

A

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='arthurhenry' post='964832' date='Sep 22 2010, 07:51 PM']Bb (never, ever heard it called A#)[/quote]

Has to be A# if you are in the key of B.

I know what you mean though, having played for years with horn players I am more comfortable thinking in flats rather than sharps, but most guitarists I know always refer to sharps.

[the_skezz]

[quote name='Johnston' post='964911' date='Sep 22 2010, 08:38 PM']the one thats tuned to G[/quote]

Is that the one on the top?

[charic]

I think its about how common you hear the notes:

C# more often than Db
Eb more often than D#
F# more often than Gb
Ab more often than G#
Bb more often than A#

I think its just where they sit in keys and what chords are more common.

The a flat g Sharp one is the only one I'm unsure of...

[thodrik]

Its been ages since I did all my theory exams and unless I start playing the double bass again it probably won't return!

To be honest in bands you are lucky if the guitarist knows to find an F#/Gb and the rest and have any knowledge of basic major and minor scales and playing with a certain key, let alone knowing when a sharp becomes a flat. Too many band practices I've had with potential bands have contained lots of fretboard watching or somebody saying 'play here...then here...then here!' before turning to the drummer and going ' Hey try "Dum cha cha Dum cha cha" then hit the big cymbal'!

Not knowing when an A# becomes a Bb isn't that important, unless you are actually using notation, I just want somebody that knows what they are doing generally.

[Bilbo]

Its the sequence that defines it, as skej21 says. If you work on the principle that you have to have a CDEFGAB in every scale F goes FGABbCDEF, whereas G goes GABCDEF#G as opposed to GABCDEGbG. If, say, the key of Db had sharps in, it would read DbEb[b]FF#[/b]G#A#CDb. It matters a lot more if you are reading to key signatures as having say a B and a Bb in a scale would mean every B woudl have an accidental which would make it harder to notate.

Most rock music is written in E, A or D so its sharps whilst most sax orientated music is in Bb or Eb (generalisations I know) so its flats all around.

[Doddy]

I've certainly noticed this trend. It used to annoy me,but now I just get on with it. It still annoys me a bit,but I just think about it the 'correct' way and just play. I've also noticed that the players who do this also refer to a song as being in a certain key based on what the first chord is,regardless of whether that's the key or not.That's thrown me a few times when I've been asked to learn a tune in a different key.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='965031' date='Sep 22 2010, 09:48 PM']Its the sequence that defines it, as skej21 says. If you work on the principle that you have to have a CDEFGAB in every scale F goes FGABbCDEF, whereas G goes GABCDEF#G as opposed to GABCDEGbG. If, say, the key of Db had sharps in, it would read DbEb[b]FF#[/b]G#A#CDb. It matters a lot more if you are reading to key signatures as having say a B and a Bb in a scale would mean every B woudl have an accidental which would make it harder to notate.

Most rock music is written in E, A or D so its sharps whilst most sax orientated music is in Bb or Eb (generalisations I know) so its flats all around.[/quote]

You purposely set out to confuse us thickies with that, didn't you!?

[SteveK]

Come on guys, I think we're in danger of taking ourselves a little too seriously here.


The last time I heard anyone refer to B# or E# was when I was studying

I couldn't give a toss if a musician refers to B# as C or E# as F - That has nothing at all to do with his ability to play music.

Having said that - I will always (and have, many times on these forums) advocate the learning of, at least some basic, theory.

[hillbilly deluxe]

I admit it,i do this to annoy our guitard.E#.A# etc.

[mart]

[quote name='skej21' post='964917' date='Sep 22 2010, 08:42 PM'].....
You also have to take into account that some keys are easier to think about in flats/sharps. For example, Db major (only 5 flats) has exactly the same notes as C#, except C# major has 7 sharps, so in written music it is difficult to read and difficult to think about.
...[/quote]

I've got this songbook for a band who are known for changing key signatures a lot in their songs. And in one of the songs, part way through, the book changes key from Db major to C# major. Yes, from Db to C#, which most of us mere mortals would tend to think of as the same key. So what's going on there: was that just the transcriber losing the plot, or is their some subtle point I'm missing?

[E sharp]

[quote name='hillbilly deluxe' post='965350' date='Sep 23 2010, 10:23 AM']I admit it,i do this to annoy our guitard.E#.A# etc.[/quote]
mmm , E sharp . That's me . Am I annoying ?

[xgsjx]

Funny thing theory. Just when you think you have it sussed, more theories come along! I guess that's why it's called theory.

Incedently I've never known Db, D#, Gb, G# or A# to be in any scales other than in humour situations.

[skej21]

[quote name='mart' post='965461' date='Sep 23 2010, 12:01 PM']I've got this songbook for a band who are known for changing key signatures a lot in their songs. And in one of the songs, part way through, the book changes key from Db major to C# major. Yes, from Db to C#, which most of us mere mortals would tend to think of as the same key. So what's going on there: was that just the transcriber losing the plot, or is their some subtle point I'm missing?[/quote]

This often happens when composers/arrangers try to be smart arses As a reading bassist/musician, I would much prefer Db major throughout.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='966517' date='Sep 24 2010, 11:14 AM']Incedently I've never known Db, D#, Gb, G# or A# to be in any scales other than in humour situations.[/quote]
Surely G# and D# crop up quite a lot? They're both present in the E-major scale (G# being the major third of the E-major chord, so you hear it all the time), and G# is in A major too.

A# is the seventh in the scale of B major, which is another fairly common key and chord in the realms of guitar-based songsmithery. Oh, and the B-major scale's got G# and D# in it too.

The flats appear in the key signature in the order Bb - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb and so on (corresponding to major keys of F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db...), so you have to be a few keys down the flats line before Db and Gb crop up, but I imagine they're pretty common when playing with a horn section.

[skej21]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='966517' date='Sep 24 2010, 11:14 AM']Incedently I've never known Db, D#, Gb, G# or A# to be in any scales other than in humour situations.[/quote]

This is a statement I get from pupils quite often, and it usually means that they rely too heavily on joining up the standard scale "shapes" rather than having a solid knowledge of the notes on the neck. It also usually means the don't read music very often/well and they don't understand musically what they are doing, but have instead discovered shapes and patterns that produce a stereotypcially suitable bass line or that they are comfortable improvising with.

An old tutor of mine used to encourage developing theory knowledge by sayin "You need to know the box, to think outside the box"...

If you understand theory and don't just rely upon musical cliches and stylistic pastiche when playing by ear, you can start to be an innovative player.

The main problem that a lack of theory knowledge uncovers is a lack of musical empathy. When students try to learn another piece (such as a Donna Lee, for example) they are happy learning the shapes and copying a piece note for note, but if I ask them to start adapting it or explaining the musical devices used by the original composers, they often struggle because they don't understand what the composer has done.

If you were an artist, you could make a basic living drawing Mickey Mouse and it could be fun too, but you would never push the boundaries of art, and that can also be said within music.

Edited September 24, 2010 by skej21

[bassace]

I once sold a DB to a BG player who wanted to take up the instrument. I explained that, as a jazzer, I played mainly in the flat keys - Bb, F, Eb, Ab, Db - compared to the rock sharp keys. His reply was 'is that because of musical snobbery?'. Oh dear, as has been posted previously, it is because the horns are tuned so that their C scales (no flats or sharps) are in the flat keys. Trumpet and Trombone Bb, Saxes Bb, Eb. I don't know if it's because I've been playing so long in 'flats' that I now have the utmost difficulty in playing the sharp keys - something a slab player could do in his sleep.

[xgsjx]

Sorry, I never read everything correctly in previous posts & never made myself clear on what I actually meant (I'm good at doing that! ).

What I had meant was in relation to talking about a scale I haven't heard anyone say "it's in the key of Gb or A#", I didn't mean as written on score (that tends to keep all notes written as # or b & not mix them).

[Bay Splayer]

the rhythm guitarist in one of my bands (covers) calls everything in between the basic notes sharps, so if i say B[i]b[/i] he looks confused, so i have to tell him its A#

regardless of what key song is in, i understand the notes on my fretboard as

A, B[i]b[/i], B, C, C#, D, E[i]b[/i], E, F, F#, G, A[i]b[/i]

[Lord Sausage]

Depends on your personality and how pedantic you are to whether its annoying or not. I know tonnes of theory (college/uni), infact i'm a nerd for it. I've just bought Schoenbergs book which is immense. I have notice the trends and it doesn't bother me. I probably indulge in it to. It is irrelevant really unless you are scoring something for someone else to play. I don' think there needs to be condescension for people who do it!