Audition Hell - Is this just me?

[Wolverinebass]

Recently, I've been on the lookout for a new band. However, I seem to have run into a few problems and I'm wondering if going I'm totally mad. I've always made it a rule that I only play with people who are better than me. Basically so that I'll always learn something and improve myself. The question is: Where have all the talented people gone?

Anything I've went for in the last 4-8 weeks have either sprung the "just play the root note" crap on me (despite agreeing that I wouldn't have to do that) or just quite frankly, haven't been up to spec in terms of ability in terms of one or two of the members of the band. Perhaps I've been spoiled as I've worked with some very talented drummers and guitarists who I've learned lots from.

However, the issue remains. Is this my insane ego running rampant or is it just that musical culture has moved on so that it doesn't actually matter if you're good at anything any more, just that you look good doing it? (See Guy Berryman from Coldplay for the most heinous example of a posing, talentless tool).

Is it just that people expect bass players to play like they did in the early 60's? (badly and with no imagination) It's almost like people like John Entwistle, Jaco, Stanley Clarke and all those amazingly innovative and talented people had never existed as being good at bass gets you nowhere these days, but a patronising comment to "play a bit less" or "turn down."

Whilst I am someone who has a problem with authority per se, I will never, ever be dictated to in how I play. I'll have a rational conversation about it, but I won't be told "you [b]have[/b][u][/u] to play this...." Er, no. If I wouldn't do that to anyone else, why should I take it?

Anyway, I'm wondering what other people's thoughts are on this.

Have a gander at my myspace [url="http://www.myspace.com/graphitewolf"]http://www.myspace.com/graphitewolf[/url] if you want to see if I'm an overplaying slap happy monkey.

[gary mac]

Maybe it's cos you take along an 8 string Warmouth explorer

[skej21]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='968527' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:37 PM']Whilst I am someone who has a problem with authority per se, I will never, ever be dictated to in how I play. I'll have a rational conversation about it, but I won't be told "you [b]have[/b][u][/u] to play this...." Er, no. If I wouldn't do that to anyone else, [u][b]why should I take it?[/b][/u]

Anyway, I'm wondering what other people's thoughts are on this.[/quote]

If you were a reading musician, you wouldn't rip up the score and compain that you weren't going to be dictated too, would you?
Why be any different when you've auditioned to be in someone else's band?
I could understand you being protective over your parts if it was your band and your music, but if you've joined a band to fill a void, you should play what the songwriter/leader asks you too (maybe with the addition of a limited number of slight stylistic improvements)
You should take it because being in another person's band isn't all about you.
Being professional in your approach to bass is more about fitting into the band and the collective vision (or the vision of the band leader/creator) than trying to show everyone how good you are individually.

You don't have to play hundreds of notes and flashy OTT slap riffs to write a good bass line, as exemplified by this (only using 4 notes in total throughout!)


P.S.
As for Guy Berryman, I happen to think that his bass lines are perfect for the music he plays (for example, 'Trouble' wouldn't be the same without the signature bass part).

Edited September 26, 2010 by skej21

[joerattray]

^spot on!

[Rosh]

[quote name='skej21' post='968545' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:55 PM']You don't have to play hundreds of notes and flashy OTT slap riffs to write a good bass line, as exemplified by this (only using 4 notes in total throughout!)
[/quote]

Fantastic example, The Roots are one of my fave bands! Although, not in my current band, Hub is a massive influence on me musically, as are all of The Roots.

Shame he's no longer the bassist, he's been replaced by Owen Biddle, and that they're now a backing band for Jimmy Fallon.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='skej21' post='968545' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:55 PM']As for Guy Berryman, I happen to think that his bass lines are perfect for the music he plays (for example, 'Trouble' wouldn't be the same without the signature bass part).[/quote]

+1. Coldplay are dreary, unimaginitive s*** and the bass parts suit this perfectly!

To the OP, I know what you're saying about people who are better than you as I always learn so much from these experiences, but what if all the people better than you follow the same rule?!

Whether you should play what you're told or improvise really depends on the genre you're in and the philosophy behind the music/band. But I do think FWIW that there are a lot of terrible bands out there with respect to the role of the bass guitar. That Roots vid is awesome though

[Cat Burrito]

Sounds like you are going for the wrong bands. I don't like Coldplay personally but I think the bass player does what is required with their music. Same with U2 and a whole host of other bands. There are plenty of bands out there who want more interesting bass playing but a lot of acts see the bass as a really important lynch pin holding down a fairly simple part. I think it's just a case of finding a band that suits your style of playing.

[Wolverinebass]

It does sound like I'm going for the wrong bands doesn't it? Trouble is I have absolutely no idea what the right one is. Pity Pete Townshend phoned Pino before me....

However, I should clarify what I meant as I think skej21 may have misunderstood. This happened and I wouldn't say it's an isolated incident either. About 3 weeks ago, I replied to an advert. The band sounded a bit like Perfect Circle. Sounded really good and they said that the bass had been sequenced. I asked well before I would turn up if it would be acceptable for me to change it a bit as they were going to be removing the bass anyway. The singer says yes. Now to quantify this the song was basically, D, E, F# and A. The A was played as a slide. I noticed it was in drop D tuning the bass they'd sequenced. I said that as I'd only be using 1 string in a fairly rudimentary manner I wouldn't really be that interested if I couldn't put my own stamp on it. Again this was all fine.

I then turn up and go for a jam. The guitarist says I'm playing the "wrong" notes as I'm playing the D an octave higher up. I could go on about this but if they had told me they wanted someone who had a bass with only 1 string I would have said "no thanks." It's not about scores or whatever, it's about people saying one thing and doing another.

Skej21's point is well put that it's not about individuals showing off. True, but if people expect you to conform like that from a first meeting, then you'll never be on an even keel with them, nor will you ever be treated as an equal. That's why if I auditioned someone for my band, I'd maybe send them the song to learn, but I'd make sure that they understood that I'd rather hear how they play themself rather than just copying what was already recorded. Just my thought and I'm probably wrong. Give someone the same freedom you'd want yourself.

However, if anyone fancies having a listen to my myspace to tell me what kind of band I'd suit, please feel free.

[oldslapper]

Start your own band..............dictate to others.
If you join other people's bands you've got to be prepared to comply, at least until they can trust you.

[skej21]

You appear to have stumbled across a problem that a lot of people have when auditioning for bands.

These guys had a sequenced bass part, with a limited number of notes and had a clear idea of what they expected from the bass part (and therefore you), which was clearly highlighted in the way they worked/recorded/viewed the bass part.

If you were unhappy from the start and wanted to change it, that in itself tells you that it's probably not the band for you.

They probably told you what you wanted to hear to get you to the audition, thinking that (like a desperate other half) they could "change" you to be the bassist that they wanted. This then leaves you with the dilemma of "do I act professionally and play what they want/expect, but take a back seat" or "tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine"?

Really, you as a musician should have noticed the incompatibility from the start really. You know the kind of player you are, and should therefore be able to judge whether or not you are suited to a band or are willing to compromise.

I will say one thing though. Are you limiting your musical opportunities by being unwilling to work outside your comfort zone?

Maybe try shaping your playing to fit a band rather than finding a band to fit you. Working outside your comfort zone might push you and improve you, and you never know, you might actually ENJOY being a musical chameleon!

Edited September 26, 2010 by skej21

[pete.young]

[quote name='Wolverinebass' post='968527' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:37 PM']Anything I've went for in the last 4-8 weeks have either sprung the "just play the root note" crap on me[/quote]

Ha ha, Peter Hook was on a documentary on BBC4 the other week : "Can't you just play the root note? - NO, cant you just fook off?"

Edited September 26, 2010 by pete.young

[zero9]

I'm currently playing in a band with a singer / songwriter, who had a set of pre-recorded songs. Although I don't particularly care for the music, I was happy to fit in with what he wanted. It helps my development to play different stuff / styles and I enjoy 'locking' in with the drummer to make those 'predetermined' bass parts groove. Above all, I very much enjoy playing in front of an audience and this allows me to do it.

Good luck with finding 'your' band.

[Wolverinebass]

The Peter Hook quote made me laugh. Top!!

I've not limited myself to stuff that's outside my comfort zone as I've done some singer songwriter stuff which was great and I certainly was playing very laid back. I thought that was fantastic fun. By the same token I've done stuff which has been more prog type material with tonto time changes in it. That was a brilliant challenge and one I relished as I'd never done that sort of stuff before.

I tend just to pick stuff I tend to like and see if it'll work. I quite often don't hear the bass on a song at all if it's really simple, I tend to hear what I'd play. That might be the issue. Quite a lot of the time that isn't that different, sometimes it really is very different. On a default setting though for types of bands, I'm not sure if I have one to be honest. Maybe that in itself [b]is[/b][u][/u] the problem. I don't know.

By the same token, because I listen to just about anything, I like lots of very, very different material, though this is in itself is not without it's problems. Whilst I think, say Tool are geniuses, I'm not entirely sure if I'd enjoy playing bass for them with all that unison riffing. Whilst that's probably an example that wouldn't be true if put to the test, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. If I didn't enjoy playing in a band or it's material, I just wouldn't do it. Just as paradoxically, just because I like a band's music doesn't mean I'd enjoy playing it.

I hope that kind of makes sense. It's just been a very frustrating time and in many ways, quite demoralising for me as I just want to play music I enjoy and have a reasonable amount of expression over what I play. Probably those things are mutually exclusive and I just haven't learned that lesson properly.

[endorka]

To the OP:

I do understand where you are coming from, and sometimes it can be disappointing to not be allowed to contribute in the way you think is best. Even more so when you *know* it is best!

However, my perception is that when I am getting involved in a new musical situation, particularly with people I don't know, I do my best to keep my opinions to myself, and to listen to what they want. It doesn't always come easy, but often I've learned a lot from listening to other people taking different approaches to what I would naturally do.

Once you get to know them better and they have learned to trust you and know you can do what is expected, then that is the time to start offering opinions that may differ from theirs. They will likely be far more receptive to them under those circumstances.

Jennifer

[Chris2112]

It does sound like you're just playing some bad auditions at the moment. Hopefully things will get better and you'll find some people who are appreciative of your talents rather than seeing you as a "tick in the box" and an obligatory arse in the bass chair!

It is disheartening to audition in situations where the bass isn't given the same weight and attention as other instruments. I've tended to look at it from Anthony Jackson's point of view, that it is just a big guitar. It sounds great supporting so naturally we play to it's strengths and support, but why do so many bands assume "support" is the most rudimentary way of doing things? Even being so petty as chastise you for playing the "wrong" D note!

These situations tend to indicate to me that I'm auditioning for a band of lacklustre fools with no vision. I think things tend to work best when each instrument is given it's own voice and space (think Rush and you'll see what I mean).

[thepurpleblob]

I hope you take this in the positive spirit in which it is intended but your post comes over as arrogant. I'm not saying you are but you do sound that way and that might be causing you problems.

You say you want to learn but then say that you won't be dictated to. How does that work? Surely learning involves an element of doing what you are told. I've always worked on the basis that I am probably wrong and probably don't know best... it has served be well.

Having said all that, there are a great many idiots out there and you might just have been unlucky. Keeping looking, don't give up and it'll work out sooner or later.

[Chris2112]

Also, could you post some pictures of your Alembic please!

[LukeFRC]

i remeber reading a interview with the guy from greenday, they were talking about what he liked playing, he was raving aout the jazz stuff he played in his free time. They asked him what he found interesting about playing bass in greenday, his reply was something like, i play it simple but then can add the odd wee part in which i enjoy.
the bass fits the music.

I think it's a natural thing for bass players to love bass, listening to your myspace, it all fits the music but all the music is very led by the bass. If you're not used to that, or that isn't how you see music exactly then of course you're going to want the bass player to be a bit more simple.
My natural instinct is to play about and fill space (overplay), one of the most usefull learning experieces for me was playing at church. On the spot learning of songs, playing with lots of different folk and the challenge of creating awesome basslines that don't sound like you're trying to play awesome basslines. It's all about the space, simplicity and the feel of the song. (james jamerson- simple basslines? no fit the song? yes). In my opinion part of being a good musician is hearing what is right for the song. You have to love the music more than the bass, and if that means root notes for most the song. so be it.

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='968932' date='Sep 26 2010, 10:30 PM']I hope you take this in the positive spirit in which it is intended but your post comes over as arrogant. I'm not saying you are but you do sound that way and that might be causing you problems.

You say you want to learn but then say that you won't be dictated to. How does that work? Surely learning involves an element of doing what you are told. I've always worked on the basis that I am probably wrong and probably don't know best... it has served be well.

Having said all that, there are a great many idiots out there and you might just have been unlucky. Keeping looking, don't give up and it'll work out sooner or later.[/quote]


I had thought it might come across a bit arrogant, but it's not really what I wanted to convey. I certainly don't take any offence to that comment whatsoever. It's a difficult thing for me to describe the difference between learning stuff and refusing to be dictated to, but I'll try to describe the sort of lines I draw on this. No doubt this is going to sound like total cobblers and will dig me further into a hole....

If I've never tried a style of music before (arty/prog metal or jazz for an example), let me know what you want as quite frankly I wouldn't be very confident. If I'm playing in a genre that I'm fine with, then I'd ask for suggestions if folk weren't sure as to what I was doing and if I think differently I'll say why I was playing something a certain way in terms of what I think it might offer the song and then try whatever I've been asked to, but when note choice and freedom of expression starts getting taken away from you, that's what I mean by being dictated to. I would feel that I'd be insulting someone if I did that, so that's why I think like that. I hope that kind of clarifies what I meant. It's not meant to be arrogant at all, and I hope I may have redressed the balance somewhat, but I'm probably just a a bit saddened a beat down with the whole idea of bassists becoming the "new drummers" in bands. And the large supply of idiots out there.

The Rush idea sounds like my sort of thing though. Always liked them.

Pictures of the Alembic will be put on the Gear thread tomorrow.

Thanks for all the encouragement.

[swanbrook]

[quote name='skej21' post='968545' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:55 PM']If you were a reading musician, you wouldn't rip up the score and compain that you weren't going to be dictated too, would you?
Why be any different when you've auditioned to be in someone else's band?
I could understand you being protective over your parts if it was your band and your music, but if you've joined a band to fill a void, you should play what the songwriter/leader asks you too (maybe with the addition of a limited number of slight stylistic improvements)
You should take it because being in another person's band isn't all about you.
Being professional in your approach to bass is more about fitting into the band and the collective vision (or the vision of the band leader/creator) than trying to show everyone how good you are individually.

You don't have to play hundreds of notes and flashy OTT slap riffs to write a good bass line, as exemplified by this (only using 4 notes in total throughout!)


P.S.
As for Guy Berryman, I happen to think that his bass lines are perfect for the music he plays (for example, 'Trouble' wouldn't be the same without the signature bass part).[/quote]
Wow dude you put this so much better than I could ever say !

[maxrossell]

From the point of view of a frontman and singer/guitarist, and having gone through more bass players than I've had hot dinners, one thing I've learned is that when a bass player you're auditioning hears the demo and says "I'm going to play this my way", the audition is a waste of time.

If a bass player is unwilling to play the line the way it was written, it means one of three things:

1. They're incapable of playing it, or
2. They don't like what you wrote, or
3. There isn't enough opportunity for them to show off their awesome technique

I've mentioned it on here before, but here's the story I relate most often. It's so lame it sounds like I made it up, but I swear I didn't.

A bass player turns up to audition. We say "as you will have noticed from the demos we gave you, we all play tuned to Eb standard, so you'll need to tune down a half-step." He says "Nah, it'll be fine, I'll play through it, I don't like tuning down." I try to convince him that he really ought to tune down, but he refuses. So we jam a couple of tunes, and he plays really badly because he's having to rush all over the place to get to the basslines instead of being able to use open strings.

Then about midway through the audition, we're playing a track, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, in the middle of a verse, he starts playing funk slap. We stop and say "what was that", and he says "oh, I just thought I'd try something."

There you have it, a bass player who showed up unprepared to make even the most basic of concessions to our style (i.e. taking twenty seconds to retune) but thinks he can just write himself a little bass solo in the middle of the verse of one of our songs because he's obviously [i]that[/i] good.

These days I only ever hire beginner bass players. Why? They know they're not sh*t-hot so they don't try to show off all the time, they don't have any funny ideas about bass being a lead instrument, and they don't think that they're in a position to rewrite all your stuff to make it more "interesting" for them to play.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='gary mac' post='968541' date='Sep 26 2010, 04:50 PM']Maybe it's cos you take along an 8 string Warmouth explorer [/quote]

That might have been said in jest, but it's possible the OP is not making a great impression with his instrument choices:

Warmoth 8 string Explorer
Status Graphite John Entwistle Buzzard
Alembic Stanley Clarke Signature Standard

I'm sure they're all nice instruments, but if the bands he's auditioning for are looking for someone to fit into a 'traditional' bass playing role and he pulls out a Status Buzzard or an Alembic at the audition, chances are they're going to be far more sensitive to potential over-playing than with someone who pulls out a Fender Precision.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='969085' date='Sep 27 2010, 07:27 AM']That might have been said in jest, but it's possible the OP is not making a great impression with his instrument choices:

Warmoth 8 string Explorer
Status Graphite John Entwistle Buzzard
Alembic Stanley Clarke Signature Standard

I'm sure they're all nice instruments, but if the bands he's auditioning for are looking for someone to fit into a 'traditional' bass playing role and he pulls out a Status Buzzard or an Alembic at the audition, chances are they're going to be far more sensitive to potential over-playing than with someone who pulls out a Fender Precision.[/quote]

That's very true.

And even regardless of the playing, most bands have an idea of what their "image" is (even if the image is not having an image), and part of that is what instruments you play. I've in the past turned down a rhythm guitar player without even hearing what his playing was like because he said he owned a brace of Ibanez RGs and wouldn't consider using anything else.

[Lozz196]

Surely an audition is a job interview, in effect?

With that in mind, in my view its a two-way interview, for both to check if the other party is acceptable.

So I think that if you audition for a band, [b]you[/b] play it as [b]they[/b] want it - that is going to be the easiest way for [b]you[/b] to make up yr mind if you want the position or not.

If you can`t play it as they want it without changing everything abt, its not the right band for you, irrespective of how they feel. So you have interviewed them, and they failed.

Too often, in all walks of life, people want to change things, without learning the original part in the first place, be it basslines, work processes etc. Its ok to show initiative, but in order to change something effectively, you have to know the original part back to front in the first place. Thats the area most fall down on.

And agree that a musicians choice of instrument can be an indication of what lies ahead, though its always worth giving them a try - just in case.

[JTUK]

The idea is not to have to go through this very variable and fraught process and that people approach you.
You really need to have a decent knowledge of who the local players are and these are the guys that are always putting things together ..and then you build up a wide circle of contacts and will be able to call up a player/players that you want to work with.

Anyway, this isn't an option atm, so you really need to vet the guys as much as they vet you.
I understand you are doing this to a degree, but have you heard of any of the bands these guys have played with..?

In order to retain control of this, you may have to be the driver of all this..and get guys to come to you.

Unless you are new to the area, you must know some guys, that you can put together just for the purpose of auditions etc..

If you don't know anyone..you need to get out there to open mics night or the monday Jams that pubs put on to fill their places on a poor night.and meet peope that way.

It is all about geting out there..and knowing people.

Of course, you need of a standard where people want what you do.

But, yes, cold auditions can be a waste of time.